THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I can understand not liking the film, but to deny that Rian Johnson or Lucasfilm doesn't care isn't a reasonable position. Loads of people love the movie... Do they not care about Star Wars?

 

Good. So you admit there does come a point where scientific (or perhaps I should say biological) inaccuracy crosses the line, even in a Star Wars movie.

As for your statement to "call me when/if it (or anything actually like it) happens" well one could argue that something like that has happened. I'm now going to play the game you play: How in the world can you accept someone shooting lightning from their fingertips, but you can't accept someone breathing fire??!? You want scientific accuracy in Star Wars???? How dare you!!!

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 24, 2018 ---

In general I'd say that statement is true. However, when it comes to something as special as Star Wars, so much of the revenues generated come from an extremely-loyal fan base. Star Wars is so valuable of a property because it goes far, far beyond mere box office take.

Alienating and bashing the fans spending the most money is not such a good idea. Speaking for myself, I am finding it easier and easier to stop spending so much money on this franchise. I didn't get an Solo action figures, even though I thought some of them looked pretty good. Didn't get the Legos either. Last year at this time such a notion would have been completely unthinkable for me.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 24, 2018 ---

This times 100.

Someone needs to tell LFL employees (including creative talent) to shut up and stop insulting the customers - not to mention stop being so politically divisive. To paraphrase something allegedly spoken by Michael Jordan: Republicans go to the movies too.

 

Oh is it a force ability? Okay, I'd be fine with that. Whether or not I liked it, would be determined by how I subjectively reacted to the way it was presented in the film. So since I'm always answering your questions, do you ever plan on answering mine, or actually discussing your reasoning on why the OP list of criticisms is "baised"? I forget, was my last post to you more than that one sentence you quoted?

But yeah, no problem with scientific inaccuracies, no problem with the introduction of new force abilities. This is Star Wars after all.

 

I did answer your questions. You didn't like the answers, but I answered them.

 

Oh did you answer the question about what the rules laid down by Star Wars for scientific accuracy were, and whether or not your statement about "good stories have rules and abide by them" was objective or subjective, and whether or not movies without apparent "rules" are inherently objectively "bad stories" because there are no rules? You answered those did you? Was force lightning the time Star Wars "went too far" and "broke the rules it laid down"? Or are you just, spinning out of false analogy control.

Seriously, no offence here but, why are you even talking to me? I'm serious by asking that.

 

Yes I did answer those. I made my opinions on the matter of scientific accuracy quite clear. All you have done is follow up with even more questions which have already been answered in my previous statements.

I said it before and I'll say it again: If you don't like what I have to say, you can feel free to go ahead and ignore me.

Seriously, no offense but, do you even read my posts? I'm serious by asking that. For example, I wrote "I believe the people who disliked the movie are sincere in their criticism" and then in your very next post you ask "Do you think the people who criticize TLJ for scientific inaccuracy are sincere in their criticism?" Then you get all mad that I don't answer each and every single one of your endless string of questions when the truth is that if you had actually read (and understood) my posts, you would see your questions had already been answered.

 

For me this is what stung the most about TLJ. So many plot threads were set up by JJ and just wasted. After watching the film I realized they didn't have a plan and they're just winging it. I was hoping they'x include more referencss from the books or TV shows in the movies, basically a Stat Wars MCU that included multiple forms of media. Sadly, the new trilogy reminds me more of the DCU, which also gives each director a lot of initiative for each film. Also, I highly doubtful the writers of the SW films know anything about canon let alone legends.

I don't hate hate TLJ, but it made me lose faith in the current direction of SW. I wish JJ directed all 3 films, they would've been more coherent.

 

So it's fair for fans to insult them? Saying, "you suck" and all that?

 

Where did I say (or even remotely imply) any of that? You intelligently and politely engage those who engage in constructive criticism. You ignore the trolls with nothing to say beyond "you suck."

Look at all the venom going back and forth between LFL and the fandom.... look at how divided the fan base is..... look at the way LFL's employees are treating their own base.... it is a complete and total cluster-mess. It goes a long way towards explaining why Star Wars has had nothing but a downhill trajectory since the release of E7. This is not a good thing for anyone.

Telling people "You are not a "customer" of either Lucasfilm or Star Wars" is moronic on so many levels. Yes, I realize I am not making any purchases directly from LucasFilm but an awful lot of my money sure ends up there (or, I should say, used to end up there) to pay the salaries of the very people who are insulting me. (It's also pretty lame to hide behind accusations of sexism when called out for how moronic that statement was, but I digress).

I want nothing more than to stop the insanity. It takes 2 to tango, and LFL's employees are more than doing their part to make things worse.

 

Wow!

I don't particularly like Kylo, and I don't particularly like Rey, but I absolutely love the chemistry between the two of them. That, for me, makes both of them acceptable.

He is consumed by the past, but in denial. "Let it go, destroy it if you have to," but the sight of his grandfather's lightsaber or his father's starship sends him into a state where his rationality goes away and he needs to seize it or destroy it immediately. As the grandson of Anakin and the son of Han Solo he should have inherited both the lightsaber and the Falcon but instead they end up in Rey's hands, a nobody who didn't even know what either of them were when they came into her possession. She also ended up with Chewbacca's companionship, Han's and Leia's parental affection, and Luke's sacred Jedi texts. Kylo is the last Skywalker - all that should have been his. Instead it all fell into the hands of a nobody.

Kylo would give anything to have them, but they're out of his reach. So he tries to convince himself the past is past, to let it all go, to move forward and stuff like that. And I think he mostly convinces himself, right up until the moment that something from his past resurfaces in his present, and away we go again.

And Rey? She loves him. She hates him. She tries to redeem him. She tries to kill him. She wants him. She wants him dead. Attracted to him. Repulsed by him. Connected through a Force link but separated by everything they each stand for. #it'scomplicated. And I love it!

I think Rey would be a pretty boring character without Kylo, and Kylo would be a hopelessly boring villain without Rey. But the two have this love/hate chemistry that totally works for me.

It's enough to justify Kylo's place in the saga. It certainly doesn't make him a great villain, but it does make for a great relationship between two characters.

 

The oddest part of the whole "they should quit insulting the fans" thing is that the "insults" have quite clearly been in the context of a "toxic minority." I see no reason to coddle those people. People who simply dislike the film aren't included in that group. If they feel like they are then that's just weird.

 

Hi welcome... Bloody wonderful post by the way. Wish I could like it more.

 

@Wolfpack , I rated your post "Trolling" because you wrote "How dare you!!!" to someone who disagreed with you.

Was there a reason you rated mine "Trolling" or did you just want revenge?

 

You seriously think they're reffering to you? You do understand they're generalizing right? Yeah it does take two to tango, but you also have to put blame on the fanbase to, and not just Lucasfilm employees. That's what I thought your post was implying.

 

Many of their derogatory posts are referring to me and people who think like me, yes. And by that I mean people of good faith who want to improve the franchise, not trolls or haters.

Sorry but you don't get to constantly throw around terms like "manbabies" and "sexists" and "you're not a customer of LFL" and then hide behind "oh, we aren't directing it at you.... only those people over there...."

The fanbase is a collection of millions of individuals. It would be impossible to control such a large group because you are always going to have attention seeking a-holes. But LFL is a company. It would be very easy for someone in charge... oh, say, the president of the company.... to put out an edict telling employees that when they represent the company, they are expected to behave in a certain way.

 

I'm not a manbaby who harasses people and I'm certainly not a sexist so why would I be upset calling a spade a spade? It's perfectly reasonable to call out this these toxic fans. The context is crystal clear. It's perplexing why it bothers you.

 

I do feel like you're taking their comments completely out of context. They're not talking about you and those that have legitimate hate for it. It's the people who harrased Kelly Marrie Tran and forced her to leave Instagram. It's those people that they're talking about. Not ones that have legitimate hate for the movie.

 

Fair enough. Looks like you've reached the end of your part in this.

 

"Well, that's a statement, sure. But instead of just making statement, why not show the reasoning. Why not address one of the points I made in the original post with some kind of rebut? Any one of them. Pick one.

You talk about bias, but I'm not the one engaging in a double-standard. Show me my bias with some kind of reasoning for your claim of bias. I claim the "critics" are engaging in a bias as illustrated by the examples in the OP. When someone is criticizing TLJ for "scientific inaccuracy" while at the same time not leveling the same criticism at the OT, then there is a clear bias in criticism.

All that you guys have done is talk, with no reasoning produced for your claims. Though, I will give to Sparafuceli(sp?) that he/she at least engaged in discussion on those points in the OP." @metadude

How much sci-fi have you watched since ANH or the OT? Yes, the OT made some mistakes, and for the most part fans tried their best to explain them away. Some, like sound in space, there's no answer for. It was an effect added to make the scenes more exciting and add tension, also I believe GL probably didn't know that sound didn't travel in space. At least I think that's likely. Now, for better or worse, we accept that in SW. Those elements in the OT that are not scientifically accurate, we didn't know about then either, for the most part. As we watched more sci-fi, got more educated we learned stuff that showed the OT had flaws (parsecs anyone?).

Had GL known this would he have kept it the same? I don't think parsecs would have been in there, sound though, possibly. Now we're used to engine whine and blaster fire in space, it would feel odd not having it anymore. But that's an inconsistency to our world that we've grown to accept with a nudge nudge, wink wink. That's part of SW. Comparing to the OT isn't completely fair because the OT was build with less knowledge about space then we have now, and also, it was the introduction to this universe, not building upon other movies.

So for fans to expect new SW to be more consistent with science moving forward isn't entirely unreasonable. We can't change the old and it would seem odd making those modifications now with the new. No one is complaining about sound in space in the ST, for example. But moving forward, being a little more consistent with our science is not an unreasonable ask. As for lightsabers, that's a tech, so much like blasters, torpedo's, hyperspace, ect.... we're giving the benefit of the doubt that "in world" there's a science behind it. Which is why I don't have an issue with the bombs.

However, at the end of ESB, there's a visible blue glow at that final scene that is meant to portray a force field (or something) when Luke, Leia and the droids are looking out at the galaxy. If that's not in there when a ship opens a door to vacuum (I'm told it is when Leia enters the ship, I'll look for it next viewing) then yes, that's a miss that's inconsistent with both our world and what we've seen in prior movies. Missing things now is not as forgivable as it was then, because there's not much excuse anymore, the information on space could be researched quite easily (a quick google search can answer most of the issues).

I think a big difference between now and the time of the OT, is that fans are much more knowledgeable then we were then. So we accept the inconsistencies of back then because we didn't know better until much later, but it had already been accepted in our mind, we had already suspended our disbelief back then. Now, introducing something unscientific that is new, unless we're ignorant about it, simply won't be accepted because it will take us out of the experience. So yeah, you may see it as "unfair" that GL was able to get away with blatant scientific issues in the OT, but the situation is totally different. Fans (for the most part) did not realize these issues existed. When we found out, we loved the films so much and for so long, all was forgiven.

The ST has the same leeway, if you stop and think about it. If 30 years down the line there's a scientific issue that we don't know about now, we'll laugh about it 30 years from now, much as we did with the OT's issues. The problem with the ST is that the standard is higher, because people are more knowledgeable. When making fantasy or sci-fi, the onus is on the writers to deliver something that fans can suspend their disbelief. If we don't know there's an issue, we don't need to suspend our disbelief, but if we know that a certain law of physics is broken in a way never seen before in SW, then it could take some fans out of the experience.

It might be unfair, but GL wasn't dealing with an audience as educated or knowledgeable then JJ and RJ are. Fans accepted GL's ideas because they didn't know any better. I can honestly say I didn't know what a parsec was until the 90's when Star Trek TNG came out. Mostly because it was a bit of information that had to do with the story in Star Trek. In ANH, I barely noticed the use of parsecs, I mostly assumed it was something akin to hydrospanner or flux capacitor ect. Techno babble.

Double standard? Sure, but it's also a different time and they (movie makers) have to adapt to their audience if they want their audience to keep coming back. Because if they can't keep things straight, somebody else will. People could and have argued that SW was never about the science, but for some fans, that's what interested them the most. If Disney wants ALL those fans to come back, then they need to please ALL those fans. And trust me, Disney want's their money, so the onus is on them to hire people to make sure those details are not missed.

 

Just because the criticisms may be technically incorrect or inconsistent doesn't make them "invalid" in my mind.
The fact that lots of people around the world shared similar feelings about instances in TLJ that didn't sit right with them gives the criticisms some validation.

Maybe.
Maybe not.

Sure some people may be disingenuous, nitpicking, or jumping on a bandwagon but if you can't know for sure it does little good to speculate and assume the worst intentions of people then generalize and ascribe this to everyone who shares the opinion.

Personally I don't think it's a particularly useful line of reasoning for a magical space opera!
But I figure some may think this on a criteria of “did I feel this scene/moment to be inconsistent with how I imagine this character/universe operates.”

Sometimes it doesn't matter if the conclusions are correct or consistent or derivative or fabricated – what matters is how people felt.
Sure feelings may change if people are exposed to conflicting evidence but they can't always be discounted on purely logical grounds.

I say it's not that black and white because "good", "bad", and "terrible" are qualitative moral or emotional judgements.
Whether they are true or not depends on definitions and criteria.

"Terrible" is about unpleasantness; something bad or displeasing that causes dread or terror.
If the person making the claim finds Mozart's compositions displeasing then it's valid IMO.

If the person defines "terrible" as “devoid of skill or ability” or “despised by those who are informed about such things” then we could develop a methodology to test the statement and likely find it to be inaccurate.

I don't know man. Maybe it's my English but I just find some of your terminology so opaque.

I agree with most of your sentiments but your posts read to me like you're saying anyone who has these feelings or opinions about the film is either being disingenuous, plagiarising, or just plain stupid.

I'd disagree with this line of thinking primarily because much of our interpretation of films is on a visceral level and can't be easily refuted by logic.
With matters of emotion I don't think it's useful to generalize and then dismiss, discount, or de-legitimize people's opinions just because you can demonstrate a logical counterargument.

That may not be what you mean of course, it's just how it sounds to me.

Anyways I feel I'm nitpicking over semantics now.
I think it's time to show myself out!



edit: grammar