THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I think there's an even better response these authors and contributors to the Star Wars Canon can offer as a remedy to receiving the bone-crushingly tragic harassment of "You suck" and "boyz are better than girlz 360 noscope"...and that's to do what professionals do. DON'T ENGAGE.

Plenty of people made easy pot-shots at Zack Snyder for making some of the worst DC films since Superman IV: The Quest for Peace, with plenty of people hounding him with rude and unconstructive comments all over his social media feed....and yet you don't see him going into Wendig or Hidalgo-sized spergfests all over Twitter. If the trolls really are unconstructive and toxic, then these people should extend professional behavior by not indulging in the rabble. Most YouTube celebrities have the good sense to do that, and they aren't paid half of what Rian Johnson or Pablo Hidalgo likely make.

I appreciate the warm praise. Thank you.

Honestly, the rant's far longer and more over-the-top than what I usually post on forums like these, but Kylo Ren is one topic in particular where I feel the need to verbally let loose. He's honestly the part of this new saga, new films, and new canon that really disgusts me the absolute most.

I truly envy yours and other people's ability to enjoy the character, really...but the least I can do is try and communicate my feelings (and likely, the feelings of many other ST dissenters) by making offering new points and angles to my criticism. I feel a lot of opposing voices to the ST just resort to vulgar language and political accusations, when I honestly feel it distracts from the more relevant problems with these new films: the story and the writing.

I'm happy, at least, that I was able to entertaing someone with my post. I'm even more floored that you took the time to read that novel-sized rant of mine.

Firstly, there will never be a greater term for Kylo Ren than "Emo Quiverlip." I just want to exclaim that as profoundly as I can.

Secondly, absolutely agree. It might be the reason I hate Kylo Ren the most---the fact that so much of the story, and indeed the characters, suffer in narrative consistency and competence just to embolden his disgustingly-written character. He's like a plague---just ruinous by virtue of existing.

What? You mean you weren't completely and utterly emotionally-invested in the shatteringly-original scene of Kylo and Rey's confrontation with Snoke? That EXTREMELY original scene that wasn't at all completely cribbed from a certain film from 1983, and shoe-horned into Rian Johnson's Wattpad fanfic without having a smidgeon of emotional depth, build-up, narrative placement, or impact?

Surely you jest.

Good for you if found even a smidgeon of actual chemistry between these two characters. I would love it too, if I believe it actually existed.

Of course, my idea of chemistry is something more substantial than "empty YA-novel self-insert persona is wooed to the moon and back by insufferable Hot Topic trogladyte and his head-smashingly stupid DARK and BROODING personality." But then, I was never one for juvenile dreck like Blood Moon Rising or Twilight or 50 Shades.

I'm a bigger fan of a film franchise you may have heard of named Star Wars. Really cool films, let me tell you...with really neat stories and well-rounded characters. Shame there hasn't been one in a while.

I'm sorry, but none of this plays an actual role in Kylo's presence as a character or villain, and if it really is as valid as a plot point as you claim, then it's just another element to his character that's sloppily-handled and poorly-conveyed. If he really has this shambling, droolingly-stupid stance on "letting go of the past" despite it causing him to make emotionally-irrational decisions at the sight of past objects like the Skywalker saber or the Falcon, why the hell did Snoke even bother wasting his time with him as an apprentice? None of that power or relation to the Skywalkers is worth spit in a jar if he can't refrain from acting like an emotionally-charged moron every five seconds. Again, this is like him slicing the keyboard or shrieking like a pterodactyl trapped under a rock. It's not compelling, it doesn't add to his character, it's not a flaw that amounts to anything interesting....it's annoying, and teeth-grating. You know what amounted to something interesting? Maul's crippling obsession with killing Obi-Wan. It's a crack in his hubris that causes him to make irrational decisions in his otherwise pitch-perfect and maniacal schemes, causes him to lose precious things he sacrificed to his crusade for vengeance, and torments and twists him to the point of insanity. He pays several prices for this, and his inability to let the vendetta go is not only commented on, confronted, ridiculed and condemned for it many times by other characters, but remains a defining and effective aspect of his personality. It is a pillar to his character, one which, the removal of, would prevent several of Maul's finest story moments and pitfalls within The Clone Wars or Rebels inaccessible.

You remove Kylo's wincingly-stupid "kill the past complex"? You lose nothing of value. He continues being a brainless village idiot inexplicably in charge of such a massive army. You still have a poorly-written and non-intimidating villain. You still have his laughably-bad origins, and his absolutely NON-EXISTENT motives. You still have a villain who's only "dark and tragic" because the writers fruitlessly scream that he is, without ever tangibly proving it to us, the audience. If the writers actually opted to take this aspect of his mentality and contribute it to something meaningful---perhaps in the way he fights, the way he selects victims, the failure he has to endure, or possibly confronting this aspect of himself as something he has to purge from his warrior's image---it might not be a complete waste of time.

But they don't, so it remains one.

Excuse me while I puke my eyeballs out all over my keyboard after reading this.

Enjoy your ship, but Christ...where exactly in the film did you perceive all of this? Because she slammed the door of her ship pretty hard on him during their departure.

Believe me, Rey is an insufferably boring character regardless of Kylo's presence. She has all the emotional weight, motivation, and exciting story development of room temperature water. She makes Bella Swan look like a character from Homer's Iliad, and THAT insufferable creature only existed to whine about how much she wanted to bear the babies of her vampire boyfriend...of course, her relationship makes about as much sense as Rey's with Kylo. And has about as much riveting chemistry.

The only advantage Rey has is that she doesn't emote or propel enough of anything to be a character, whereas Kylo does, and is infinitely-more irritating as a result. I couldn't care less what happens to Rey...

But if Kylo died tomorrow, I would actually use the remainder of my savings to throw a wedding-sized party in Tahiti to celebrate the death of that pimple on the butt-cheek of Star Wars.

Nothing outside of Kylo's lineage has justified his place in the saga. Take his lineage away, and the 1% remaining relevance he has in the overarching story evaporates. He's the worst villain to date, the worst character to date, the worst duelist to date, the worst military commander to date, the most poorly-developed to date, has the weakest origins of any villain to date, and could probably inflict diabetes through the worst-concieved "romantic bond" in the history of the franchise.

Kylo's connection to the Skywalker lineage is what Rey's parents are to Rey herself: their entire character rides on the wet paper-thin intrigue of that aspect, and without that, they're basically mannequins standing in as main characters.

The props in the background have a more lasting impact on the storytelling of the saga than these wet blanket characters.

Thank you for the welcome, and much gratitude for your appreciative remarks. I'm happy you enjoyed what I wrote.

 

Hyperbolic rhetoric aside, what drives you to write about a film six months later that you absolutely hate? No one is going to have a reasonable conversation with someone coming from this position unless they after 100%, but maybe that's the point.

 

Right...

This was a few days ago, so I'm not sure if you've read more about it since then, but just to clarify:

They are trying to actually rewrite and refilm- this isn't just a fan edit.

That's why it's basically achieved meme status.

I mean, even if they managed to get ahold of the amount they're requesting (a paltry 20 mil, if I recall correctly) how do they expect to pay the actors? Or do they think they can get away with recasting? Even so, that money won't go far with effects too, and I'm skeptical that their script is worthwhile.

In short, it could be a beautiful disaster.

 

I'd have to reiterate what I've said multiple times already; that I'm not ascribing this to everyone who dislikes the movie. I've even said that dislike of the movie is to be expected. No movie is without sincere dislike by a given group of people, just as no music is without sincere dislike by a given group of people.

Some people are disingenous, nitpicking and jumping on a bandwagon, and I can know who they are by the criticisms they're leveling at the film. If it's a double-standard, they're nitpicking. If it's name-dropping (using terms like Mary Sue, Ex Machina), they're bandwagon-jumping. Both are disingenuous. A person saying, "I hated that scene" "I don't like that character" etc. are expressing sincere feelings. A person that says "That is a poorly written character because [objective statement such as 'is a Mary Sue']" is not. They are fabricating a fake criticism in an attempt to appear sincerely objective and unbiased.

Well the movies have been consistent in their lack of scientific accuracy, so anyone feeling that scientific inaccuracy in a scene/moment is inconsistent with a series of consistent scientific inaccuracy are, let's call it, a bit obtuse. But hey, obtuse seems the rule so no harm no foul. But if they then try to pass off the result of obtuse as some kind of genuine criticism, they're engaging in a double-standard criticism.

Objective statements such as "Rey is a Mary Sue" aren't feelings. "Bombs don't fall in space*" is not a feeling, it is an objective statement. None of the criticisms I listed are feelings, they are objective statements as objective as "A distributor with a cracked cap is a bad distributor"

Not when you're using the words as objective terms. When your mechanic tells you "You've got a bad alternator" he's not speaking by way of a qualitative moral or emotional judgment. And neither are those criticisms in the OP. They are being used as objective statements. "The Canto scene is a bad scene because it adds nothing to the story" is not a moral or emotional judgment, it is an objective statement about the addition of information introduced into the narrative.

Yes. And there you have it.

Abstractions can be that way, which is why I usually present an analogy to create a picture for understanding. But you know what they say, the most difficult thing about communication is the illusion that it has occurred.

I said before multiple times that anyone expressing subjective feelings were possibly sincere subjective reactions to thef film (though that is not a given - obviously someone could say 'I hated it everything about it, so much' and be a complete fraud, their hate being pre-packaged and not the result of the film itself but being their disposition to, say, Disney in general). This is why I listed the criticisms I was evaluating in the OP. People have tended to ignore those OP points and created discussions about the entire spectrum of people and criticism. I haven't. You yourself haven't responded to any of them, and those are the point and foundation of the thought. I don't even know what the people who are responding to me feel about the movie, when I ask them, I get silence and the sound of a pin-drop.

When you pass into objectivity, you can be objectively refuted.

*Apparently bombs actually do fall in space. So that criticism is not only insincere nit-picking by way of double-standard, it's wrong. And yet, there it is. Or, was? Did that 'criticism' get jettisoned when people realized how ridiculous it really was?

 

Really ? There are entire threads about the prequels ( and maybe you posted in it ) 20 years after ?

But this has to stop right now I guess ?

 

Who said anything about stopping? I haven't participated in PT threads. Are people still actively ranting and raving about how bad it is?

 

I just came across this today



I have never seen it in this way before, it is quite amazing. It's mirroring dialogue from TESB and ROTJ with Luke and his motivations in TLJ. It may actually change my opinion on the film, I've just never looked at this way before; I've been full of the Dark side the past few months. There are still some things I can't stand, but I think my perspective has changed regarding this one issue.

 

That’s a well-reasoned and thought out position. I still don’t entirely grasp why Luke just stands there with his saber out after coming to his senses, but oh well

 

I always thought it was kind of a deer-in-headlights kind of thing.

 

I always thought it was kind of a lazy contrivance kind of thing. Films are subjective that way I guess

 

Yes, they are.

 

How is the context "crystal clear"? I don't twitterface so please correct me if I am wrong, but this recent example we are talking about seem to be tweets just posted out of the blue. She wasn't responding to anyone, she was DMing anyone, she wasn't in some other thread talking to a specific individual. She just came right out with the whole "You are not a customer of either Lucasfilm or Star Wars..." spiel out of the blue. Maybe there was something which precipitated those remarks, but I sure can't find out what.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2018 ---

This. This this this. But here is what they are doing instead: They are doing the same technique employed by Ghostbusters 2 years ago. They know they made a product which a great many people dislike... so they are trying to paint all the critics with a wide brush. If you can paint the haters as racist intolerant bigots, then it helps silence those with legit criticism. We see people in this very forum doing the exact same thing.

The Kelly Marie Tran thing is just bizarre. The timing was verrrrrrrrrrrrrrrry strange. If bullying was going on, one may logically assume it was taking place far more frequently in December, January and February than it would have been in April and May. Yet she kept her Instagram running all the way through TLJ's release (when the bullying would have been at its worst) and then in June (when it would have died down to a whimper) finally gets fed up with it?

It just doesn't make any sense. It makes more sense to me that she found out she wasn't returning for E9 or something like that.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018 ---

They have flaws but overall they are fantastic movies.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018 ---

They have to realize that they hold no intellectual property rights to Star Wars. Even if they had $200 million and the cooperation of Mark Hamill, they still couldn't make a Star Wars movie.

Something tells me that they are hoping to do an Axanar-style fan film with a budget of $1 million, give or take. Safe to say it would involve recasting all roles. The legality of actually doing something like that remains up in the air as the Star Trek people settled their lawsuits. If that had gone to court, my money would have been on Paramount.

 

Ew ew ew, that looks like fun. I wanna try. I wanna try. OK: the Ford Pinto had flaws, but overall, they are fantastic cars.

I like this. Let’s do some more

 

I think people are more annoyed by the media's response, than the creators response. Rian may have specified the toxic elements, but the media starting posting articles titled "Star Wars fandom isn't worth defending."

It's obvious people are painting the group with the individual's brush, and it's understandable to have people annoyed at that.

 

I liked the prequels ! I like them all. AoTC is a little bit long but it is definitely a Star Wars movie.

 

I know it's not your analysis, but I will respond to the twitter posts using your post as proxy.

I can't take this analysis terribly seriously when it completely ignores one of the overwhelming themes of the confrontation on DS2. What the Emperor - and Vader - primarily exploit is Luke's love of his friends. The Emperor drives the point home several times: "You faith in your friends (is your weakness)". "Your friends on the sanctuary moon are walking into a trap - as is your rebel fleet." "From here you will witness the final destruction of the Rebellion." "Your friends on the Endor moon will not survive."

The writer of this analysis does not mention any of this despite the fact that movie is hammering you over the head with it. It's like trying to analyze themes from The Godfather without mentioning family. Even Vader taunts Luke by saying "your feelings for (your friends) are strong" before sending Luke over the edge by continuing "especially for.... sister!" and threatening to turn Leia to the Dark Side. (At least the writer of the analysis gives this part a mention, albeit a ridiculously cursory one).

A major theme of this final confrontation is how Luke's desire to protect and save his friends is what is pushing him towards the Dark Side. (Sound familiar?)

IMHO, it is weak to present an analysis of the DS2 confrontation without even mentioning the above and this theme is not even remotely analogous to anything involving Luke and Ben Solo.​

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2018 ---

I thoroughly enjoyed all of them and, while I know this opinion is in the minority, I feel they got progressively better.

 

I came across this article about the Last Jedi remake this mourning. I thought it was a fairly accurate assessment of where Star Wars is at right now.

Most of what I read online about the remake is simply bashing the idea, and maybe rightfully so, but this fellow seems to take in a broader perspective, and think about what it means for the future of the franchise.

https://www.flickeringmyth.com/2018...di-remake-should-be-taken-somewhat-seriously/

 

I kind of feel like the signs have been there that LFL needed to take a step back and reconsider a lot. I don't get the impression that the response they are getting was the response they were expecting for TLJ or the "make it up as you go" planning that they employed. I know it's par for the course to argue "everything is fine" and "these reactions are normal" (it has been argued many times that ESB had similar caustic reactions or that the PT did as well) when you're trying not to acknowledge a problem, but I think it does more harm than good and it represents (to me) a head-in-the-sand approach that does delays disaster but doesn't avert it.

Ultimately they could decide to continue going the way they're going (deciding to rely more on casual fans than the hard core variety) but I just don't think there's muc of a stomach among shareholder for "dying on an ideological hill" when they can readily make a product and have reasonable faith the vast majority of the consumers will like it.

 

One thing that I think is important.

I've noticed that many people who liked TLJ were younger than those who hated it.

I've waited 30 years to see Luke Skywalker again in a theater and two more years because he only appeared one second in ep VII and you know what ?

I didn't wait 32 years for this !

So I think that people who waited 32 years for that official outcome of Luke Skywalker's life are legitimate to be a little salty.

 

If the group will forgive me for responding to my own post, I wanted to add to this point. I did the above from memory so I wanted to check what actually happened in the film. It turns out the Emperor uses the phrase "your friends" 7 times in roughly 5 minutes of Throne Room film time from the moment Luke enters to the point where he lights up his saber (Lord Vader also uses it once later on).

"I assure you we are quite safe from your friends here."
"Your faith in your friends is yours."
"Your friends up there on the Sanctuary Moon are walking into a trap."
"I'm afraid the deflector shield will be quite operational when your friends arrive."
"As you can see, my young apprentice, your friends have failed."
"Your fleet has lost. And your friends on the Endor moon will not survive."
"The Alliance will die...as will your friends."
(Vader): "Give yourself to the dark side. It is the only way you can save your friends."

So yeah, the movie is making this point with all the subtlety of a jackhammer. You can definitely see how it relates to Anakin's downfall in Episode 3 but Episode 8...? Not so much.

--- Double Post Merged, Jun 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Jun 25, 2018 ---

It's a fantastic article. Spot on.