THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Well, this is quite simple because the books weren't on Earth they were on Ahch-To. Here on Earth some people left the Dead Sea Scrolls laying around to find over a thousand years later.

 

The plot relevance will be they can be used now as a reason for Rey knowing anything JJ wants, and being able to do anything she wants. If he couples this with a time skip, there is no reason anymore to consider her an over-powered character in the final act. She'll just have gotten the information from the sacred Jedi texts.

 

Who said Yoda knew where this place was?

Because they’re sacred. It’s not about what’s in them, it’s what they represent.

Again, what makes you think the contents of those books is something the Jedi are desperate to keep people from learning?

I don’t remember anyone in the movie saying that. It's the first Jedi temple. Whereabouts previously unknown for some undisclosed reason.

I don’t remember anyone in the movie saying that either.

A secret mediation method? Is that the “aggressive negotiations” thing Anakin was talking about

Says who?

Well, yeah, it’s a planet in a massive uncharted stretch of the Unknown Regions. Getting there without an accurate map would be impossible. That was the whole point of TFA.

Again, why do you think anybody was trying to keep these books away for anyone? The temple is sacred. The texts are sacred. The location was unknown for some reason. That’s all we know.

If EPIX paints a totally different picture and makes those books super crazy special and can’t fall into the wrong hands, then you’ll have my heartfelt apology. Otherwise, I don’t see the issue. A Sith would get hold of them and find out <gasp> how to be a proper Jedi. Oh No!!

 

I noticed that it was on there yesterday while browsing through the new arrivals. I'm actually contemplating watching it again...after I buy a bottle of booze and have someone there to laugh at it with me.

 

Given that the official explanation for Rey being powerful enough to counter the likes of Kylo Ren is her literally downloading Force knowledge through her and his telepathic link, I don't think there's anymore room for new plot elements to wave away how ludicrously powerful she's become in a short time.

The explanation is now there, and it's a laughably-bad one, too.

Yoda knows enough about the books that they "aren't page-turners." How would he know that unless he had read them himself? How would he have ever read them if he had never come to this planet when he was still alive? Why would he appear to Luke in TLJ, on the island, set fire to the books, and comment on their importance if he didn't know where they were, and what the significance of this place was?

Unless Yoda came to the island as a Force Ghost and read the books before Luke got there. To which, I would ask, if Yoda can be daintly prancing about the Star Wars Galaxy as a ghost without any kind of consequential damage, why he didn't come to help Luke sooner with his dilemma....but that of course raises the question of why he's never used his newfound lightning ability to do anything useful for the last 30 years that he's been dead.

What? So if they're purely ceremonial and serve only symbolic purposes, why are they hidden like some kind of treasured artifact in a place like this?

Why wouldn't the Jedi have them as one of their several artifacts in their Jedi Temple? But more importantly, why would they be so central for Rey to steal, for Luke to want to destroy, and for the Order to keep hidden, if all they serve is symbolic importance?

That just seems like a waste of time. Especially, again, when the far more valuable and more lore-suited Holocrons exist.

From the Wiki: "The sacred Jedi texts were a collection of books and scrolls kept within a uneti tree near the first Jedi Temple on the aquatic planet of Ahch-To. They were said to contain ancient scriptures, including the Aionomica and the Rammahgon, lost Jedi wisdom, and abilities."

We aren't explicitly told this in the film (thanks to Rian Johnson's master-class world-building techniques), but they aren't just containing spouts of Jedi proverbs and poetry. They have techniques in them, abilities...and given their location, one could assume that they're as old as the Jedi Order itself. So why would they keep such valuable information in something that non-Force users, and more importantly Dark-Siders can access? That's the EXACT kind of thing the Jedi would want to keep out of enemy hands.

That's precisely what the Archives in the Jedi Temple of Coruscant were made to do. Why else do you think the Order reacted in anxiety and panic when Cad Bane broke into the Temple and attempted to make off with precious Jedi Secrets from the Archive?

'Some undisclosed reason'? You mean, 'supposedly being older and more important than any Jedi location we've seen in canon yet, but has never once been alluded to in Rebels or surrounding media because Rian pulled it completely out of nowhere without convincingly explaining it'?

And make no mistake. This planet is the birth-place of the Jedi Order. The wiki even says so. And yet, despite this place literally being the soil by which the Jedi Order came into fruition, THE FIRST place Jedi as an Order existed, it's given all the explanation and intrigue of a half-page book report.

So we have time to see Luke glug down disgusting quantities of Green Milk, and for Rose Tico to bemoan the evils of capitalism on Canto Bight, but there's not enough room in the script to explain potentially the most lore-significant location we've been introduced to yet in the new canon. How is this acceptable? How does this make for good world-building? How is this an any way a good balance of storytelling priorities, given how much story takes place on the infernal island in the place? If no one, not Rian nor the Story Group, was interested in exploring the significance of this place, why did they write it as the first Jedi Temple in the first place? To be a DLC map in the new Battlefront? Or to be detailed in some supplementary novel or comic LFL expects me to spend many on to get answers for, despite the fact that the world-building for this island should've occurred in the films it made its debut in.

Everyone in the fandom, from the Star Wars Reddit to the Jedi Council Forums is riding this theory aggressively that Rey is going to use these books to start a new Jedi Order in Luke's absence. This, they claim, is the only practical reason for Rey salvaging the books in the first place, since she needs no further training due to downloading Force Knowledge through her telepathic exchanges with Kylo---which, according to the novelization, is the official explanation for Rey's rapid accommodation to high-level Force prowess.

Believe me, I'm waiting just to see how J.J. Abrams proceeds to not do this in Ep. 9. Expecting definitive plot closure from him is like expecting water from a rock.

Believe it or not, I'm not exaggerating. Methods of meditation are a big part of the new canon. It was something Kanan, Ahsoka, and Ezra used to communicate with the Netherworld of the Force during Season 2 of Rebels.

I guess I was the only one paying attention to that.

See my entire shpeel on Yoda knowing and commenting on this place in the part of this post where I addressed it.

And yet no one in the untold millenia of the galaxy, not one Sith or Jedi in all this time, has managed to find this place since its inception. Generations of Jedi Orders have come and gone, battles have been waged between them and the Sith (as Malachor has indicated), and no one, outside of the original Jedi who founded the place, Luke, and Rey have ever discovered this planet. No other Sith or Jedi have ever entered the planet between then and now, and no one has ever tried to steal those books, or even swipe knowledge from them since they don't have the rigid security of a Holocron.

That literally requires me to banish my sense of disbelief to a NASA shuttle and launch it into space. Nothing about that makes sense.


So far, I haven't heard one good answer for why, despite what's been shown in Rebels and co-relating canon materials leading up to this film, sacred Jedi knowledge of this magnitude is being kept in easily-accessible, flimsy books instead of the Force-barrier protected clutches of a Holocron. There are plenty of production-related justifications, but no decent or competent in-universe ones.

Seems par for the course when discussing these movies. They literally require one not to think in order to make sense with the rest of the universe and canon. Hence, why I despise them so.

 

Yoda now exists as a non-corporeal energy being who’s one with a universal, pan-galactic, omnipresence. I’d wager a tidy sum that there’s at least one or two things he knows now that he didn’t when he was still a greenish bag of crude matter.

Luke closed himself off from the Force. Yoda is one with the Force. Makes sense to me.

It was certainly silly and a little incompatible with Ghost Obi-Wan’s “I cannot interfere” line. Hard to argue that

Hidden? You said it yourself. This is a pretty lousy hiding place. It’s just a hollowed out tree.

Keeping the first Jedi texts in the first Jedi temple seems rather appropriate to me. Why do you assume the information in there wasn’t transferred to some holocron at some point and didn’t find its way to Coruscant?

Holy crap, guy, because they’re a bloody metaphor. “Just like me, they're the last of the Jedi religion.” Rey, saving them, is the same as her saving the Jedi religion. Get it? I’m sure they’ll be helpful to her in a practical capacity, but the point of them in the movie wasn’t about what was in them. They represent the need to learn from the past even if that past wasn’t flawless. In-universe, they’re presented as just relics. But relics can still have value.

And? Does it say this information had to be strictly guarded for fear it may be abused?

JJ introduced this place. Not Rian Johnson. We weren’t given a reason for this place to be so hard to find. That’s all I’m saying. You’ve jumped to conclusions and then jumped to several more based on that.

Yeah, that’s a bit of an issue. I’d love that to be addressed at some point.

Yeah, probably.

So? I don’t think any of them work for Lucasfilm or Bad Robot. I’ll care about this when I see the next movie.

First time for everything, I suppose.

I’m sure. I just found the misspelling funny is all, ‘meditation’ versus ‘mediation’.

Yeah, doesn’t make much sense, but that’s the whole premise behind the Unknown Regions. You can only travel through hyperspace with precise navigation. There’s no navigational charts for that area of space - too dangerous (or whatever). No charts, no light-speed.

That we know of, yeah. JJ didn’t give a reason. RJ didn’t give a reason. Unless you had that map that gave explicit directions, that planet was inaccessible. Or, I guess, if you read somebody’s mind who’d been there like Snoke did with Rey.

I think the simple answer is that the First Jedi didn’t consider this knowledge to be of the same magnitude you do. OR, they figured an impossible to find planet was good enough.

Maybe you’ll grow out of that some day

 

So he's omnipresent and all-knowing as a Force Ghost to know that the books that he hasn't read, or has ever been aware of prior to this film, are worthless and not worth reading...or he did know about the books when he was alive, told no one, left them out in the open for anyone to find, and then destroyed them before anyone could make use of them...choosing, of course to destroy them now, at the 11th hour, instead of before someone like Snoke or Kylo could accidentally stumble across it in their expansive galactic takeover.

Either explanation is a poor one to justify Yoda intervening on this matter, and him knowing the exact content of these books he's never mentioned before. Unless Jedi are given a wellspring of knowledge upon becoming one with the Force...which we have no canonical evidence to know as true.

I wasn't talking about when Luke was on the island. Yoda could've intervened while Ben was undergoing his Dark Side Puberty under Luke's watch, or potentially have stopped him before he decided to contemplate murdering him in his sleep. Luke was Force-sensitive and active for 25 years before he shut himself off...I'm pretty sure Yoda had plenty of opportunities to console/help Luke find his TLJ epiphany a couple of years sooner.

And I don't want to hear any nonsense about Yoda being unavailable or being restrained by some Force Ghost Limitations, because of as of his reducing the Jedi Tree to cinders with randomly-summoned arcs of lightning, the rules in this universe no longer have a shred of consistency for Rian or the Story Group to cower behind.

Well, there's one thing we agree on, at least.

I would presume that this island, and the books on it, have been kept a secret for a reason. That's the only way to justify the incredibly-stupid contradiction of no one in either TCW or Rebels making mention of "the island where the Jedi Order began" despite this place existing. The only reasonable explanation was that it was such a secret that even the Jedi Order of the Republic weren't aware of it (which falls apart the minute you realize that Yoda has perfect knowledge of this place in Ghost form, rather inexplicably).

The hiding place for these books is stupid. The very notion of these books existing instead of Holocrons is stupid. But neither changes the fact that the film makes a very clear case that these books have more value than merely being ceremonial objects of reverence...they have secrets in them, as both hinted at by the film and the wiki. That's not the kind of thing to keep anywhere outside of a Temple Library like the one on Courscant, which either relegates these books as something hidden from even the most recent Jedi Order, or something that Rian Johnson pulled out of thin air to justify Luke being on this island.

Because that kind of slip-shot writing and inconsistent lore-wrecking is what happens when you launch a trilogy between three prospectively-different direction with no clear plan or distinct lore-based outline. You get poorly-written and intelligence-insulting tripe like this.

Yeah. Except anyone, the Sith very much included, can enter the island, read the books, and gain knowledge of high-level Jedi techniques and secrets to use against them. So why would ANY Jedi of ANY generation still allow the books to keep existing if they've been transferred to a much more secure resource? Why would they allow an exact duplicate of treasured Jedi secrets, one that is MORE accessible and presents MORE of a security threat than a Holocron, to exist? Why wouldn't they destroy it after making said transfer? And before I hear anything about "preserving the original source for sacred and symbolic value", please remember that unlike artifacts like national documents and works of art (such as the entire Archive of the Vatican, for a real-world comparison), these hold secrets that, in the wrong hands, could enable destructive knowledge to a competing party like the Sith to challenge the Jedi, and dominate the galaxy. That's precisely the kind of knowledge you wouldn't bother preserving original artifacts for. Transferring the secrets from these books to a Holocron, and then just leaving them out in the open, is the kind of blithering idiocy that dismantles the entire notion of intelligent writing for this story.

That's like writing the nuclear launch codes on a piece of paper, transferring them to the White House supercomputer, and then leaving the piece of paper containing the original codes in a two-story, open-entry log cabin in the middle of the Nevada Desert, for anyone to accidentally stumble across.

It makes the complete opposite of sense. At best, it makes the Jedi look like complete morons, and at worst makes the Sith look like even BIGGER morons for not exploiting this kind of moronic thinking.

If a metaphoric element in the story exists in a way that defies the logic or reason within the world in which it takes place, then its metaphoric value is completely meaningless. Fact of the matter is, the existence of these books contradicts with elements set up in the canon leading directly to TLJ's release. They don't make sense from the perspective of the world, from what Rebels has established, and from any logical angle in which they are meant to be represented in the Star Wars universe.

It creates problems. Problems that, other media in the canon, will have to write around based on this inexplicable need for Rian to have these dumb books in the movie in the first place. You call it a metaphor. I call it logic and world-building bowing to poor creative choices.

Guess which one will have the more lasting impact on subsequent materials following this movie?

Why wouldn't the Jedi Order be guarding something that has Jedi techniques in it? If it's something that can literally aid Rey in better pursuing her Force training, to the point where she felt the need to take it with her, then I'm pretty darn skippy that this could easily be used to train Sith warriors if it was in their hands. Information like this, to breed followers and build strong warriors, is precisely the kind the Sith abuse. That's been a staple of their role in both of the TV Shows: Dooku sends Cad Bane to infiltrate the Jedi Archives in search of Jedi Knowledge that can better aid his conquest, Darth Maul goes to Malachor to use the destructive Sith secrets buried in the planet's core to further his pursuit of galactic conquest.

There are a dozen ways someone could exploit this information, which is why a Holocron, sealed with a countermeasure in which a SPECIFIC ALLIGNMENT OF THE FORCE REQUIRED TO OPEN IT, would serve as a much better alternative and more secure option than flimsy books.

Are we on the same page yet?

You're correct. I forgot that this was an element that J.J. Abrams had introduced, and that he is to blame for the existence of this place. My mistake.

The reason in which Luke is here, and the nature of these books, are entirely the product of Rian Johnson, however. And that is just as poorly-conceived and inexplicable as J.J.'s introduction of this place. They're both guilty of poor world-building, just different kinds.

I would've liked that to have been addressed in the film I paid for, especially given how important the island is to the story, and how important the Jedi are to the Star Wars universe.

I suppose the difference between you and me is that you're actually willing to pay money for LFL to come up with explanations for integral on-screen narrative elements in later material, whereas I find that to be a piss-poor standard for world-building in the Star Wars universe, and a horrible standard for storytelling at large in regards to how they're approaching the milking of this franchise: to be vague as possible in the films, and spread out the details in other, paid-for material, instead of doing the creative thing and providing all the details in the initial films....and using future entries or material to come up with new ideas, instead of filling in the ones that should've been presented in the first place.

I guess I just have my standards set too high. Maybe I just have this unrealistic fear that Lucasfilm will save all these details for later, only to have them to be phony and undeveloped plot points devoid of any proper planning or initial idea of what to do with them in the first place. But we all know THAT'S not something they would d---

​

....oh. Right.

Forgot 'bout that.

I'd argue definitely, but our priorities probably differ. Nothing wrong with that.

Hey, I don't agree with this defense being paraded by these forums, either...I think it's just as stupid and will likely not occur on-screen. I'm just repeating what's been regurgitated by 99% of the people I encounter that still defend this flaming car wreck of a film.

I say that every time I expect an ounce of originality or quality content from every modern Star Wars product...four years running, and I'm still disappointed.

Sadly, I don't expect the same enthusiasm to deliver anything different in regards to J.J.'s narrative abilities. His track record speaks for him---he has a method he likes, to recreate other people's work and litter his story with empty mystery boxes, and a part of me is certain he isn't going to diverge from that approach.

Especially when his last use of it gained him 2 billion dollars, universal praise, and immunity from criticism. He has no reason to think it won't work just as well a second time.

I have a hard time believing that Malachor, a planet also within the Unknown Regions, is awash with civilization and has a literal preserved battleground from eons of Jedi and Sith fighting, and yet this planet in the same remote vicinity has never been touched or discovered by the Sith in all that time.

It's not an impossibility, but it still makes for some cheap, cop-out writing.

The fact that fans like you and I have to do the writing and thinking for this film should showcase how little thought people like Rian and J.J. have put into this concept.

And this planet is supposed to be the host and focus for an entire sub-plot of this new trilogy. What exciting development and world-building this saga gets under these creatively-bankrupt individuals. I'm sure none of this will feel weak and unsubstantial when some comic book or TV show does these writers' and directors' jobs for them by properly illuminating on the importance of this place.

Because we absolutely needed that in past Star Wars movies and products. This doesn't create ANY kind of bad precedent whatsoever. Nope, nope, nope.

I think the better explanation is that this film places an inconsistent and disproportionate amount of importance on these books, despite barely explaining their presence in the story in the first place or properly implementing it as an element in the plot. They are a McGuffin, a tool that will provide Rey with knowledge that we will likely never learn, and don't need to learn, because their purpose isn't to build the world or expand on the Jedi...just to embolden Rey's wet paper sack of a character, and to service Rian Johnson's hole-riddled script.

It makes no sense in-universe, because Rian didn't spend time thinking about where these books would go after his film, or how they would impact the canon he was interacting with. He didn't think ahead, or outside his movie, and no one involved in the production or Story Group felt the need to change his mind.

Sounds like the same standard for bad decisions made all over this trilogy. Things only have to make sense in the moment, not in the story or the universe as a whole. That's just how Star Wars is now.

I'll grow out of having to think to enjoy something? Is that a desirable fate for any human being on this planet? Because it certainly isn't one of mine.

Although, it seems to be the method in which LFL hopes people will approach their film. Just turn their brain off and enjoy the flashy colors and explosions. Because that's the only way Star Wars can appeal to a mass audience.

Must explain why Solo did so well, despite being the literal embodiment of that storytelling approach. Oh, well.

 

Point taken.

Nonsense - not if you've ever taken a second to try and research the term.
From the first page on a simple internet search (in case you missed it the first time)...

Anyone who thinks there's a single objective definition should look closer!

Honestly dude, at this point I can see how you would look at anything and assume everybody else either thinks the same as you or is wrong.

Huh?
I was agreeing that people call out Rey more than other potential Mary Sue's.
It was a factual statement dude - it's either true or false.
Are you really calling me out for saying “people really care about SW”?

If you really want to know a search will show you...

Spoiler

I came around to accepting the term after a little listening and research.

First you try to de-legitimise certain criticisms - then when I advocate for other people, you try to de-legitimize mine!
I just think there's solid points on both sides.
Does that allow me my response or am I somehow ineligible?



Anyways I don't feel we're getting anywhere - forget I said anything.



I'd hazard we probably share similar feelings about the film, I'm just less inclined to write off the "Mary Sue" criticisms as untenable or mimicry.
I'll look forward to a more fruitful discussion with you about something else!

 

Eh, he just told himself he wanted to die. His actions show otherwise. The proof is in the milk!

 

absolutely! if you didn't see it.. then the proof went past-ur-eyes

i know.. i know.. how dairy come in here and make jokes about the milk !

 

hahaha I love it!

 

George wasn’t kind enough to give us a reference manual detailing what exactly a Force ghost can or can’t do. With something described as being “more powerful than you can possibly imagine”, I’d mostly err on the side of possible rather than impossible. Cinematically, Luke is the only one we’ve seen interact with one of these spooky glowy Force people. The end of ROTJ presents it as something only he’s perceiving, which implies the apparitions or localized to his mind.

If ghost Yoda is in his mind, then it’s reasonable for me to assume he’s also privy to what else is in Luke’s mind. Yoda, then, knows the books are bad reads because Luke knows this. That was my assumption watching that scene. Not that this was Yoda’s weekend getaway. That there was a reserved bungalow there with his name on it. He can read Luke’s mind because that’s something the Force can do.

Seems to me you’re making a lot of logical leaps in opposition to this movie predicated on your negative reception of it. Likewise, I’m making a whole lot of logical leaps too, predicated on my want to like this film more than I actually do. I can’t speak to your motivations, but I know mine. Good or bad, it’s still a Star Wars movie. Because of that, I’m willing to extend it my generosity and find ways to like it. If something doesn’t make total sense, then I’ll figure out a way to make it make sense.

That’s one of my favorite tertiary elements of this franchise: finding all the silly little holes in it, poking fun at them, and then coming up with plausible ways to fill them. That’s how I treat all the Star Wars movies and this one is no different. I wish it had been better, but I’m invested in this property and if I’m going to keep following it, I’d prefer to continue to find things I enjoy about it rather than dumping on it. I’d rather like something than not like it. That simply makes the most sense to me.

And I guess ghost Obi-Wan or Yoda could have intervened while Luke was struggling with the darkside in the Emperor’s thrown room too. That’s the built-in catch with this idea. If mentors can reach beyond the grave to keep advising their charges in life, why aren’t they ALWAYS doing this? That’s not a TLJ exclusive problem, that’s a Star Wars problem in general. One George created, not Rian.

I would presume that as well. But, as we haven’t been given one, I can’t draw the conclusions you have. Maybe it was a practical joke that got way out of hand. We literally have no idea. Odds are it was just a plot contrivance that JJ came up with and there is no answer.

Where are you getting this from? Were the Sith even around when these books were written? Were the first Jedi as domineering about hoarding their knowledge as the last? You’re making so many assumptions based on preconceived notions not necessarily applicable to a situation that’s an otherwise mystery to us. The texts are sacred artifacts residing in a sacred place. They contain teachings about the Jedi religion. That’s all we know.

Or it’s simply the same as leaving behind an early draft of the New Testament in a proto-church that’s been lost to history and you’re making way too big a deal about this.

Tuh-mey-toh, tuh-mah-toh I guess.

Personally, I couldn’t care less whether every single bit of particulate canonical nuance is tied together in a pretty little bow. Being a slave to lore only hampers creativity in my mind. Inconsequential contradictions don’t bother me. That’s the nature of the game. That’s what retcons are for.

Well, if the techniques are antithetical to darkside philosophies, then a “Sith warrior” probably wouldn’t have much use for them.

The difference is we expect two different things from this property. I want compelling stories about the people of this fantastical world. I’d appreciate ill-defined plot points be fully explored within the narrative, but I don’t need it. You want stuff. You want lore. You want world-building. Ultimately, I don’t give a fraction of a damn about all that noise. I want an enthralling epic tale. I don’t care if every single piece lines up exactly so. The seams don’t bother me.

Maybe, but that’s half the fun for me. I get to fill in those gaps with things that are probably more interesting than what the actual reveal would be.

Most likely, yeah.

Well, no, they exist in service to the immediate story with relevance to the main protagonist. Maybe they’ll have broader implications, maybe not . . . probably not.

I just mean that the way you feel about it now isn’t necessarily how you’ll feel about it in the future. Maybe you’ll accept this movie for what it is instead of what you’d like it to have been. Who knows?

 

It's also reasonable to believe that someone who complains about books being in the film might not be a good judge of "integral on-screen narrative elements" that need to be explained.

 

I didn't say that there was a single, objective definition, I said that if anyone said "Rey is a Mary Sue" without explaining what they meant by the use of "Mary Sue" then they are using it as jargon (i.e. not defining the use of the term because jargon is in need of no explanation, which is the very reason for the existence of jargon).

If they are using the term "Mary Sue" and then defining the term according to one of many definitions, then there is no function in saying the phrase "Mary Sue" since it must then be defined according to which definition is being employed by use of the term.

Example: "Rey is a bad character because she is a Mary Sue. By that, I mean definition 2 'does not fail'." The speaker should cut out the useless middle man and say "Rey is a bad character because she does not fail." Employing the phrase "Mary Sue" has no function as jargon. Having no technical function of jargon, there can be only one reason for employment of the term: rhetoric. The speaker is attempting to fabricate the illusion of unbiased and objective criticism by rhetorical use of "Mary Sue", a term which has no technical function as jargon. That is, the speaker is, name-dropping. Fabricating rhetoric to attempt to create the illusion of objectivity by employing a term carrying no objective meaning.

In other words, a person saying "Rey is a Mary Sue" is only fabricating a criticism that appears to have an authoritative objectivity. The rhetoric is being used to cause the less knowledgable to think that the speaker is, intelligent and knows what he is talking about. But he isn't, and doesn't. They will think he is right because of his rhetorical use of a jargon (in the same vein as "Ex Machina" "Pacing Issues" "Tonal Imbalance" etc.) but as a wise man once said, "The first to speak always sounds like he is in the right - until he is cross-examined."

Maybe?

Then you agree that the criticism is a double-standard. A double-standarded is not sincere criticism, it is clearly biased. Thus you agree the use of "Mary Sue" is a fabricated criticism.

It's very true. And thus truly a double-standard. You know the phrase, "give them enough rope", I presume?*

If you're attempting to excuse fabricated criticism as sincere and genuine by uttering the words "people care about Star Wars" then, yeah, I'm calling you out.

I see. And based on your checked boxes, I presume you also criticize the OT for Luke the Gary Stu? PT Anakin the Gary Stu? PT Obi-Wan the Gary Stu?

☑ Plot armor
☑ Tough fighter
☑ Skilled Pilot
☑ Strong in The Force
☑ Quick Learner
☒ Mary Sue

If you really wanted to be sincere in your genuine criteria for determining "Rey is a Mary Sue" all you really need to do is add a checkbox "Is a girl" then your criticism wouldn't apply to all of the male Jedi, only to Rey. So in the future if you find yourself in this same scenario, be sure to checkbox "Is a girl" then you can be really genuinely sincere when you criticize Rey as the Mary Sue.*

As an aside, the term "plot armor" is also a fabricated criticism that appears in contemporary criticism only as a form of mimicry.

If your advocations are based on illogic, of course I de-legitimize them. Who you're trying to advocate has no relevance on whether your advocations are reasonable.

You responses are certainly always allowed to be put forth for evaluation.

Reason dictates otherwise, as stated in the opening paragraph of this reply, and as illustrated by your own double-standard checkbox criteria.*

I also gave you a bare form of syllogism so you could easily note any problems with the line of reason. You chose to avoid it for some reason.

*Adios. And; sorry, Tuco.

 

In short... before the movie came out I was very intrigued by all those things: the tree, the books,
the temple, the caretakers...

In all truth, I came to the conclusion that they were just props.
Nothing more.

The thing is these movies are not written thinking about the lore.
The are written without a plan.
All the things we read elsewhere are due to the SG trying to take care/link/ all those things as best as they can.
And truth to be told that is why - now - I personally find all the novels, comics, whatever... pointless.
You may enjoy them . Sure you can. They may very well be a nice read.
But that’s all.
They are not supposed to give any kind of hint of further developments.
They just try to cover some holes, while entertaining you, or to please you
making some connections but there’s nothing more.

Personally that is what I find more disappointing in the current SWU.

 

This didn't become a problem until Force Ghosts could do more than offer advice. When you literally have Ben state that "he cannot interfere" with Luke's confrontation with Vader, only to have Yoda summon lightning and incinerate a tree two movies later, there's an immediate problem.

I blame that squarely on Rian, not George. At least George had the good sense to limit the interaction with ghosts as not to create plot-related dilemmas with them, as Rian seems to do with every creative choice he makes.

There is nothing in any of the films to suggest that the ghosts are something that solely exist in the minds of the people they approach, much less have access to the minds of the people they're visiting. That may be reasonable for you, but it isn't canon for the rest of us.

Moreover, having Ghost Yoda be an apparition that solely exists in Luke's mind certainly wouldn't explain the lightning striking the tree....unless you're actually suggesting that a random arc of lightning struck the tree, and Luke just perceived it as Yoda summoning it. Which would be beyond stupid.

I'm working exclusively with the information that's presented to me by the film, and the surrounding material like the TV shows. If that's the same thing as "making logical leaps in opposition to the film", especially when so many elements in TLJ directly contradict with previous material, then maybe it has more to do with Rian's shortcomings as a writer than my shortcomings as a viewer.

It isn't, nor will it ever be, my job to leap through flaming rings of head-canon for the writer. I didn't have to do it for the OT, I didn't have to do it for the PT, I didn't have to do it for the EU, and I most certainly didn't have to do it for either TCW or Rebels. Even if I didn't like every detail that was presented to me in those works, I still was given enough of an explanation to know what was going on. I wasn't questioning basic things like the world-building or character motivations, because that had been suitably provided for me. It makes sense through virtue of the effective writing. TLJ doesn't.

And frankly, if all you have to offer in regards to counterarguments to my points are "I enjoy it because I'm willing to fill in all the blanks for Rian, why can't you", then sorry, you're barking up the wrong tree. I will never accept that as a valid argument for anything, because it isn't one.

That's entirely your preference, but does nothing to alleviate the holes in Rian's script and the abysmal quality of this film. It doesn't even come close to addressing my problems with the film in any practical sense.

Again, didn't have to throw my brain into a trashbin to enjoy the rest of Star Wars until now. I'm not lowering my standards simply because Rian has lowered the bar for storytelling.

That's absolutely the wrong approach to take, sorry.

Except the ability to summon lightning and light objects on fire wasn't exactly part of a Force Ghost's arsenal in those films. I'm pretty sure that would've come in handy against Vader or the Emperor in all of Luke's confrontations.

That is a problem Rian created, not George.

Yeah, there's a sacred artifact on an island we're told is the birthplace of the Jedi Order, and despite that unparalleled importance, there's no initial or clever answer for why they're important.

I'm just....so invested in the non-existent, empty mythology J.J. has provided us. It really does make this universe feel bigger and more interesting (sniff).

If the Sith have been around as long as a planet as ancient as Malachor, I'm pretty sure that a Sith Lord or Army could've gotten ahold of the books after learning about them being written. Y'know, kind of how Darth Maul went in search of an ancient Sith Power he learned of thousands of years after it had initially been fought over?

It's not that there weren't any Sith present WHEN the books were written, it's that no Sith of any kind has discovered these books in all this time, on an island with no barriers or obstacles, within the pages of a non-Holocron object that any alien schmuck or Jawa can open with their grubby little hands. Which is doubly stupid when you consider how many rigid and uncompromising security measures are walled around the temples and Holocrons seen in Star Wars Rebels. You need two Force-Sensitive beings to lift an abandoned Temple from the ground on Lothal, two Force-Sensitive beings to bypass a series of elaborate Sith Traps on Malachor, but to gain access to the oldest containers of Jedi knowledge seen in the canon yet?

Eh, just crack open the tree and pop open the pages of a book.

I'm sorry, but this false equivalence only makes me laugh.

Please point to any Church documents lying around that contain precious, supernatural secrets that can be weaponized by a depraved, unnaturally powerful cult of Dark Side Warriors who could use the power for themselves. Color me skeptical, but I'm pretty sure the Vatican doesn't have a rival faction Dark Side-wielding warrior monks who have untapped power into abilities that even the Jedi don't fully understand. I don't think the Vatican's policy of preserving artifacts in their original state even remotely translates to having valuable, potentially-weaponized Force Abilities available where your historically worst enemy (with a history of subjecting the galaxy to senseless conflict and bloodshed) to find, steal and utilize.

You want to try that one again? But with a more sensible example this time?

What a brilliant contribution to our conversation. The argumentative prowess is just astounding.

I don't know about you, but I got into Star Wars instead of superhero comics precisely so I could avoid having a mountain of retcons and alternate timelines opened up every single week. I like something resembling canonical consistency. It shows that the creators care what they say or do in the past, care enough to honor those canonical decisions in future stories. That's precisely why I like TCW and Rebels so much---it rewards fans who are invested in the continuity by reviving minor details and extending them into plot-points and relevant lore assets.

That's called having a grip on the consistency and stability of a fictional universe. I'm sorry if I sound like a babbling asylum inmate for wanting that in the multi-million dollar, large-scale films, too.

The techniques in the book are antiethical to Dark Side philosophies? Based on what?

Count Dooku literally had Cad Bane break into the Coruscant Jedi Temple to make off with Jedi Holocrons in order to abuse their secrets. Why would he bother stealing them if utilizing their secrets were antiethical to the Dark Side?

Where are you pulling this head-canon from, exactly?

Well, at least one of us is getting what we want. I'd hardly call the story in this new film compelling, but I suppose that's what this thread is for.

Then why are you responding to my posts complaining about the poor world-building in these films? Your priorities are elsewhere. You clearly don't have any investment in the conversation. You have no other compelling arguments to any of my points besides folding your arms in a corner and muttering "Well, I like it", so why do you insist on replying?

You're not offering a single valid defense of this film besides having your investment in some other part of the film. That doesn't render my complaints non-valid, or discredit a thing that I'm saying. If anything, it makes your position in this conversation less relevant to what I'm discussing.

Isn't that just admitting that the people in charge of this franchise are incapable of coming up with something half as interesting as what fans conjure up in their head-canon?

Because if that's not a depressing reality for Star Wars, I don't know what is.

Yeah, see, I would reply to that, but @lealt basically hit the nail on the head with the response I quote later in this post.

The unfortunate reality of the situation is that these new movies have given me so little redeeming qualities to work with. They're hollow and unoriginal to the point of frustration, which really is disappointing for someone hoping for a brand-new era and not a recycling of the OT conflict. They have extremely weak and uninteresting characters at best, and agonizingly-infuriating characters like Kylo Ren at worst. The themes and Force-related conflict in the film has such a flimsy foundation and suffers from such jarringly-underdeveloped writing and lack of planning, that my investment couldn't possibly be lower. The writers and directors don't care enough to make this universe and this trilogy as well-developed and rich as possible, so I have no reason to care.

I used to get though some of the less-than-stellar Star Wars products I consumed back in the day, and accepted them for what they were, purely by searching for the redeeming qualities. But with these Sequel Films, there's absolutely nothing to work with---not one thing competently done, properly explored, or done with an ounce of creative integrity. There's not one thing about TLJ that I want to revisit, see referenced in future products, or want to spend time analyzing or exploring through supplementary materials.

If anything, time and continuing exposure to these films are only going to increase my disdain for the film. And believe me, it's not for failing expectations. It's by subverting them with how unimaginably bad the resulting film ended up being.

I wasn't the one who made them integral to the story, part of the Jedi-related conflict going on in the film, or important enough for Rey to take with her into the proceeding 9th film. Rian did all those things. He elevated their importance in the story, not me.

Remember that before you try and discredit it my from a condescending angle.

^Pretty much this.

It seems like all the important world-building is happening in supplementary materials, and even that's under the stranglehold of creative limitations upheld by LFL and the Story Group, who are over-saturating the OT characters and conflict to the point of fatigue.

 

This is a really fascinating perspective to me. I remember when these cross-media story linkages were just novelties - fun little bonuses to reward the folks that were keeping up with everything. Now they’re the central focus of the pieces themselves? Not the stories? I wonder when that shift happened. When did a work’s relevance become contingent on the Easter eggs connecting it to the greater whole? Was that always the case and I just wasn’t paying attention? Eh, wouldn’t be the first time, I guess

 

Why doesn’t OB offer Luke advice during the three years between ANH and ESB? Why doesn’t he offer him advice during that year between ESB and ROTJ? We aren’t given a reason why he couldn’t, he just doesn’t. The proper response to that is: a shoulder shrug. Force ghosts be finicky I suppose.

During the Ewok parade of silliness, Luke sees full on Force ghosts of OB, green guy, and his pops. Pretty sure nobody else there is seeing that. Just Luke. They’re only appearing to him, not even Force sensitive Leia got a gander. Regardless, mind reading via the Force is certainly canon. Has been for a while.

Look, I already addressed all the “points” you made. You’re applying a perspective of an era of Jedi practices that isn’t applicable because the subject at hand predates all of that. This is the earliest version of the Order ever presented. You don’t seem to be willing to open your mind to that at all. You’ve drawn your line in the sand and determined what is or isn’t feasible.

So you’re just choosing not to address the ‘impossible to find’ premise of that planet? You’re just gonna breeze past that because it’s incompatible with your perspective?

Glad I was able lighten your day

You keep harping on this point as if it was something actually raised in the movie. We weren’t given a reason to believe the contents of those books could be used the way you’re suggesting. I’m sorry, we just weren’t.

Oh, sorry, it’s an expression. You see, it’s meant to demonstrate that there are two ways to pronounce something. From that, you expand it to the idea that there are two ways to interpret something. You had yours. I had mine. Make sense? I can go into greater detail if you’d like.

I got into Star Wars because I really enjoyed the exciting and rich storytelling, set against a vast boundless backdrop of space, with timeless themes imparting moral and ethical lessons about society and human nature . . . . . . . . . and lightsabers.

Neat. Sorry the movies aren’t giving you what you want. Maybe somebody will do better by you some day.

Based on whatever well of speculation you’re pulling from. You keep claiming whatever’s in those books can be used for evil. Well, what if they can’t? What if they’re just the fundamentals of the Jedi religion? Something a Sith, or any darksider, wouldn’t care to learn because they focus on calm and passivity. Just throwing that out there.

It's been a very long time since I’ve seen any Clone Wars. Remind me. Did Dooku succeed? Did he learn all those wonderful Jedi secrets and abuse them toward his darkside ends?

I was responding to the whole ‘Jedi books don’t make sense’ thing and got wrapped up in this tangential hoopla about lore and such. Maybe you’re confusing me with someone else? I was just offering a perspective for why those books could make sense. You disagreed and somehow we got here. I assumed your continuous declarative statements were meant for me. They were just directionless pronouncements then? My mistake.

Why do you think I’m trying to do any of those things? I thought TLJ was pretty blah. I’ll defend bits of it that I think are misrepresented by offering a different perspective, but I’m perfectly fine with anyone thinking it’s crap. That’s entirely your prerogative. I’m here to have thought-provoking conversations about something that interests me, not argue in circles in a bid to prove my superiority.

We’re clearly not on this forum for the same reason. I hope you work out whatever it is you need to work out. Take care now

 

This is your opinion. Myself and many others don't have an issue with "book technology." I don't need a back story on why the first Jedi used books. It's a book. To me it's a super nit picky thing for which to complain.

 

It happened when LF - not me - said that the new canon was going to do that.