THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I'll venture in here lol. I haven't read the Reddit so I'm going on purely what I've read here and here's my take.

It sounds to me like this author is just now wading into the debate. He's coming off like many lovers came off within the first couple months of release of TLJ. Many of us (both lovers and haters) had ideas that were way off to left field in those early weeks/months. Over time after discussion and seeing other people's point of view, most of us have moderated. This guy isn't moderate, and at this point of the game it annoys people more because these discussions have been had. I mean, where has this guy been all this time? It seems like he's been surrounded by TLJ lovers and is completely ignorant of the issues people have with the film. Either that, or he's now being willfully ignorant, I honestly hope it's the latter and am willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Still, his opinions at this point of the game, his rationalizations of who TLJ haters are, is way behind the times. I get the impression that most here understand, even if they strongly disagree with, the reasoning behind the hate. So basically this author is misinformed or uninformed on the issues and is coming up with the same lame arguments that were brought forth at the very beginning.

The only redeeming fact I can throw his way, is that I guess I can't really blame him for not wading through page upon page of reasoning why TLJ is disliked. there's a heck of a lot of material out there, much of it repetitive. If you start at the beginning of the debate, it would be pretty easy to think less of the haters, just as it would be easier for haters to think less of the lovers. Personally, I'd just shrug him off as ignorant by no real fault of his own. He's just late to the game and will need to catch up or be dismissed.

 

Okay this is frustrating. Not once did this fan asked to be indulged. I am going to keep repeating this throughout.

The fan thought Rose crashing her ship into Finn’s ship was tone deaf to ’save him’ while saying love is what will save them while a big laser is gonna kill the rebels just as it is tone deaf for Rian Johnson to joke about leaving Finn in the coma throughout the movie.
You have a scene where Finn might sacrifice himself. It’s a big emotional moment. He wants to fight for a cause. Then it’s undone. Maybe not for you but a lot of people see little things like that as the director just treating Finn like a joke because he has no idea what on earth to do with him or Poe, or even Rose. Moving on....

You really don’t understand how a white man explaining to a person of color that they can’t take a joke when they see a racial stereo type in a film is troubling?


It’s fine if you disagree about the writing. But Hulk finds this writing to be profound. The only criticism he brings up is the fact that the movie loses its “edge” for subverting expectations but he calls it a minor quibble. And he even makes it a point “You see I’m pointing out a flaw guys! happy!” to sound like he is being fair.

He then goes as far as to say that the film has an objectively good script because it hits all the bullet points. He also hides the part of Poe’s arc where Poe pulls a mutiny and gets away with it. A lot of people think that’s bad writing. But to Hulk? “Oh it’s indulgent, but hey you guys are okay when Marvel does!?”


I think you don’t realize that calling someone “indulgent” because they criticize the way a character is written is not indulgent. The fan didn’t ask Finn to be a badass Jedi. He was rather upset and irritated by the way he is treated. He wakes up with water squirting out, he over reacts to everything.

Every other person of color I have talked to has found issues with the way John Boyega was utilized.


A lot of people find this trouble because Finn’s story to them was not executed well. Hulk’s analysis of Finn is also filled with lots of embellishments. He talks about Finn in Canto Bight and the kids being reminded of his own person trauma? What trauma? Nothing in those indicates that he has trauma. All we know is that he defected and maybe he was taken away as a kid. It’s vague. We don’t see him process this drama and we don’t dive into why he should choose the Resistance or what’s great about it. And in return, his character just comes across as a silly sidekick who’s there for one liners.

People of color getting upset by the way characters are written is not self-indulgent. It’s called asking to be treated with respect and like an equal.


I am okay if someone thinks TLJ is a profound film. I am not okay when someone tells me that I am just missing it or I am just not smart enough to see its profundity.

Example, I love Interstellar. I understand a lot of people hate Interstellar or think it’s silly. Me? I think it’s an incredible examination about where mankind is headed while also being a moving story about a father saving his children. But I am OKAY with people not liking it or it not being for everyone. Do I judge people for saying its bad? No because art is subjective.

I love Blade Runner 2049. I know a couple of folks who don’t. Some find it too misogynistic. And you know what? I can say that it’s a valid point. I am not telling them that they are indulgent or just expecting the film to be something it’s not. I see they make a valid point but I still think it’s a fascinating abstract film about frailty of humans and what it means to be a good person.


Just to point out. For the talk about bringing one’s own “personal baggage” when examining this film critically. He flat out mentions that he is RJ’s buddy and his word is meaningless but he goes on to say that the is right. In a nutshell, he is basically just carrying this Rj’s water for him. But hey, to each his own.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 23, 2018 ---

Here’s another thing for you. Drew Mcweeny wrote a 40 page essay about how RJ changed SW forever. I disagree with a lot of it but you know what? He made intelligent arguments throughout. I could see where he came from. He was writing in a way that wasn’t insulting the people who disliked the film. I found a lot his assessments questionable but not out of reach. A lot of his analysis was drawing from the novelization but that’s okay because at least I can see why the movie works for him or his thought process. He doesn’t judge others who don’t. He only calls out the online harassers. I can get behind that. The difference is that his critique doesn’t take away my feelings of the film. It’s just another of way of looking at it. I don’t have to agree with him but I can respect his point of view.

Hulk? It’s always about “being right” even though he claims he doesn’t do that he passively reinforces it then goes into word-salad, self-indulgent monologues about how he isn’t. That article he wrote, if you ask me, is unfocused, poorly edited. self-satisfied word salad designed to get attention online and to earn his paycheck.



Note: I am having trouble posting that reddit link because it won’t let me. Look for BensenMum the reddit username and you should find it, along with the link to the email.

 

When we last saw Rey in TFA her biggest motivation at the time was her family. It doesn't matter what Maz said to her, because she initially rejected it. Her family and Finn were her only connections and interests. About a week had passed since the events of SKB, and from what I remember from the novel Rey stayed by Finn most of the time until she had to go see Luke. Since that is the case the only motivations that still should have moved her was family, and then Finn. If RJ wanted to give Rey a reason to go to Kylo it should have been about her family. Going to Kylo for the reasons RJ wrote wasn't in her character.

 

Rey lost her parents and lived without them almost her whole life long. She didn't want to have Leia bear the same fate with Kylo Ren. She loves and wants to have a family, so it's totally in character for Rey to try bringing son and mother back together. At least in my opinion.

 

Where is this stated or implied anywhere in the film?

 

@Sparafucile this article was written in February. I just got to read it yesterday

@Plagueis 1138 listen, if I starting commenting about the article in question is because I realised it was being misinterpreted here. There were claims thrown that the article did not make. I just wanted to set the record straight.

The author of this article explains why TLJ is for him a good film and observed that in numerous occasions the criticism of the film has nothing to do with the craft and more with people disliking the representation of certain characters. I personally think he is stepping into dangerous territory. He admits it himself too. You can’t really win telling people they are missing the point of something, even if they are, or that their preconceptions or/and prejudices are spoiling their enjoyment of the film. People don’t like to be told that kind of thing.

I haven’t read this exchange first hand so I can’t really comment on how Hulk handled the situation. I’ll check that reddit account you directed me to when I have the time and will say what I think then. All I can say now is that yes, racial stereotypes are infuriating. I personally did not see a stereotype in Finn. That doesn’t mean there wasn’t, just that it wasn’t evident to me. I did notice though that Boyega had great comedic timing and felt that both directors probably used this to their advantage. I don’t see his character foolish, he is perhaps not as central as I would have wished him to be, but never foolish;. Hopefully in the next film we will see much more of him.

 

I am only noticing those things with Finn, Poe, and Rose is because the storytelling itself felt extremely messy and overly convoluted from a scripting point of view. It is a film with good direction and acting but if you ask me the story is a muddled mess.

I don’t always criticize when us minorities are written with in a stereotypical manner if the film itself is good. But the this film brags about these PoC being the main stars and as far as I am concerned, nothing in the writing earns any of that.

Here you go. I rest my case.

 

Compare this scene to ANY scene in The Last Jedi.

Believable acting, great lighting, nice pacing, good special effects.. nice camera movement.

Adequate use of music.

Original characters acting the way they should.

And actual Star Wars-like dialogue, none of that "Watch my ass!" or "Chrome Dome" crap.. nobody talks about how bad the dialogue was in TLJ.

I am stagnant in rage at what a terrible follow-up TLJ was.. I still can't believe it.

 

Even though I'm not the biggest fan of TLJ, you can easily do the same thing with TLJ. Just take the whole final of Luke vs Kylo.
Believable acting by Adam Driver and Mark Hamill, great visuals and music.

 

@Plagueis 1138. This is the answer Hulk offers to this coloured man in the observer article:


“For instance, I had a young black fan write me, fed up with narrative that only anti-S.J.W.s hated The Last Jedi and he rightfully had problems with that. But when writing about the reasons he didn’t like the film, he wrote, “For all that talk about being progressive, Finn is reduced to over-the-top comedic relief. A goofy sidekick that overreacts to everything and anything around him. He has water squirting out of him in his opening scene.”


And there it is, it comes back to indulgence and the unwillingness to feel silly. To justify it, he relies on conversations about “uneven tone” and even criticizes Rose with the logic stuff, saying, “Crashing her ship into someone else’s ship, risking the lives of your comrades, is completely tone deaf.” Again, that’s not even what tone deaf means, and I genuinely don’t want to project why that moment might bother someone, but it doesn’t matter.”


I find two things here I’d like to mention.


First I admit that Hulk was somewhat indelicate answering this email. This young man did have a genuine concern about TLJ and it would have been definitely more considerate and polite to address this issue in his answering email.


Secondly, even though I think Hulk should have answered directly to this coloured young man’s email, I understand he is trying hard to explain his point of view so that it does not come across as dismissive or unthoughtful. A paragraph or two below the above extract in his article he explains what he means by “indulgence”, and in what specific way this colour man’s upset about Finn being too much of a jokey character fits into this definition:


“I use the word “indulgence” a lot with regards to popular narrative, and I do for good reason. Movies, TV and Video Games are so powerful, so involving, and so good at their jobs that we can effectively do things that make us “go into another world” or “live a day in someone else’s shoes.” Simply put, they are empathy machines—vehicles for deeply visceral experiences that make us feel heightened emotions beyond our own lives.”


He goes on talking about this “indulgent” stories and characters and the joy they bring and engagement, but he also says he’s aware that stories cannot be always this empathetic and empowering. Movies need not only conflict but also reflect society the way it is.


“And while there will always be the confectionary elements to summer movie fare, the simple truth is that no narrative can sustain itself on the sugary-sweet, dizzying highs of storytelling that are just three to make the audience feel empowered and cool. Not just because movies need to operate off conflict, character arcs, and all that good stuff I talked about earlier, but because all movies, whether they mean to or not, illustrate something about how they think people and society operate.”


Afterwards Hulk equates the “indulging” thinking of this coloured man with that of those white men complaining about Luke not behaving like the Luke they remember. I think he is simply trying to be understanding of how our wishes to see ourselves identified on screen very often are in conflict with the stories told on screen and the characters presented to us. I am Spanish and I particularly hate the character of Gloria in modern family. I know that she is layered and sometimes she turns out to be the only voice of reason in a given episode, but, I don’t know, I still hate the way she is an over the top caricature of the image obsessed Latino woman... it is a personal grudge, because I know the character works very well in the series and the actress is a delight

Thank you for posting those emails. I know it wasn’t easy!

 

She goes cause he’s shirtless and dreamy! Don’t you know. That’s real progressive. The shirtless, creepy bad boy seduces a vulnerable young woman in a critical stage in her journey to adulthood. Such profundity!

All joking aside, I was cool with Rey going to Ren up until they finish the throne room fight, then it becomes good vs evil. Had Rey and K


It would make more sense to me if Rey went there because Kylo Ren is offering her something that tempts her. Then she goes there to release it’s all B.S. Now we’ve got ourselves a character that is growing. A story that is actually focused on Rey.

I understand he is trying to seem fair or it appears to be.

But I don’t think someone complaining about Finn and asking him to be written with some respect is indulgent. I don’t think Hulk understands this because he is not a person of color but he seems to think that he is justified regardless.

The irony of that writer in that he is a white man writing in third person, calling himself the Hulk in overlong essays telling people what is and isn’t right essentially.

 

Yeah, I make a point to not read or watch old opinions about TLJ. The fandom was very toxic and fans on both sides made a lot of assumptions that have since been discredited or proven, if not outright untrue, at least to be a tiny minority. As a fandom we've made progress to at least reach an understanding, even if we still disagree on the conclusions others have drawn. I wouldn't enjoy someone calling me out on something I've posted in February because most likely my opinion and approach has changed a great deal since then.

So yeah, I guess my observation that his opinions seem antiquated make sense in this light. Given the chance, he might moderate some of what he said. He was caught up in the furor of the time, making biased conclusions based on what he saw by those around him, much like we all did in those early days. I hope in the days since he's moderated like most of the fandom has.

 

Funny enough, that article was actually written in July. He apparently claimed he spent 6 months analyzing every point of view and was trying to be fair.

 

Why can't everyone agree that people have different opinions about different movies? Or that this has been the case since the existence of motion pictures?

Ever since the release of "TLJ", people have been talking about how "toxic fandom" is ruining the SW franchise. Even before "TLJ", everyone HAS NOT harbored the same opinions about the other movies in the franchise, let alone other movies. Why is it suddenly a crime for different opinions about a movie to exist?

It is possible that some of these opinions are based upon pre-conceived prejudices. And some of these opinions are based upon taste. But this pretense that this so-called "toxic fandom" is something new is nothing more than an illusion to me.

 

You see I don’t think the character of Finn was written without respect and I’m sure Hulk didn’t either, therefore, when he told this young man he was being “indulgent” (in the sense he explained in the article) he was not being ignorant of his sensitivities, as you imply. He just did not think this “lack of respect” was justified by what was shown in the film... Maybe Finn is not as stoic, square jawed and cool as he could have been, but that doesn’t mean he’s just written for laughs... or he’s an embarrassment... Also Hulk was trying to explain that a different rendering of the character would not have necessarily fitted RJ’s plans and themes for TLJ (learning from failure, impostor heroes and so on) and how they were going to be shown on screen. RJ inherited the character Finn and the actor John Boyega. Finn was already a bit frantic and on edge in TFA. John Boyega, JJ and possibly Kasdan had already injected the character with humour and relatibility. Rian decided to make the character grow into a person with a purpose with Rose being the one supposed to bring out in him his manly, heroic side.


I understand people not liking Finn or his evolution in TLJ, but implying that the character was written without respect because he has certain characteristics and a certain race just doesn’t seem completely fair IMO.

 

I am arguing he was under written because none of the things he does in the film feel very significant. The much debated casino planet, in my opinion, didn’t really payoff for him. We don’t see him process this idea of slave kids. The “trauma” that Hulk talks about is not existent. What trauma? His relationship with Rose didn’t really go anywhere beyond just “oh we need to find the guy to do the thing.” I understood what RJ was going for but the execution as just weak. His arc feels rushed and as a result, he just comes off as that stereotype.

It is one thing to have a different opinion with someone about a character but for him to dismissively say “it’s indulgence” is just mind boggling. The fan did not ask him to feel cool. The fan rightly felt that Finn was portrayed as a joke in the film.

Hulk basically dismissed this person’s claim and just said “oh you can’t take a joke or be seen as silly.”

There’s a difference between good hearted humor and belittlement. You may not have felt that Finn was belittled or under written but to say that someone is just indulgent or just wants to see “a powerful black jedi” is unfair. That’s not what the fan argued. The fan was just offering another perspective that not everyone who dislikes the film is a bigot or sexist.

Again, you don’t have to agree with the fan but for Hulk to say that he is just “intensely missing” the arc and then in the article says the fan just wants empowerment, that reeks of blindsided-ness on Hulk’s part.

Also, Hulk just assumed the fan was black to fit his own analysis. That’s actually a big thing. He just decided that he instantly knew about this person and not only that, but went as far as to single him out in a article and make it combative.

 

You see, it does if you isolate his words in the article and do not read the rest, see them in context and try to understand his criticism for what it really is. Hulk may not have expressed himself clearly enough for many, he may have written too long an article for many, all that “word salad “ (hilarious description by the way . I’m using that in future ) but he does not seem insensitive or blind to me. Presumptuous, yes, but to say he is blind to racial stereotyping and the effect it can have on others is just speculative, I think. To make a claim like that, I need more evidence than what he says in this article.

But I don’t think I’m going to convince you about this, which is ok. I don’t know anything about this gentleman’s leanings. You may have more of an insight and be able to read more between the lines than I do.

 

Okay this is last time I will talk about this. I understand his criticism. I am seeing it in context.

I responded badly to some of the humor and the way Finn is treated. I thought his storyline was weak. Hulk think this storyline is brilliant. What is wrong with me thinking this way about the way Finn is treated? How is that indulgence when all someone is asking is that minorities be written better. It’s not because “oh it didn’t make me feel powerful.” Maybe it’s because I thought it didn’t feel very well thought out in my opinion? And a lot of people seem to think this storyline was one of the film’s big weak points.

I didn’t go into the film expecting the the movie to do what I wanted it to do. I am judging the film as an avid film goer and I had problems with some of the storytelling just like that fan did.

I know he claims he agrees with the fan about diversity but that does not justify for him to put words in the fan’s mouth. And for the millionth time, the fan didn’t want Finn to be a badass Jedi. You see the difference? He's not asking to be indulged, he’s asking for respect.

Who is Hulk to say to a person of color so self-righteously “oh you just don’t have thick skin” ?

I think it’s fair to say that he does have a blindspot if he takes it upon himself to assume the fan’s race just so it can fit his own agenda. That’s not classy that’s low.

 

I feel the acting of TLJ was pretty good. I'm a pretty hard marker, and I'd probably give it a 7 or 8 overall. That said, there were a few moments I felt I was watching a B movie.

One such is when Rey slices the rock and just misses those aliens and they look up at her. It just felt like a muppet show to me. I laughed, but not because of the scene, but because of the execution. I'm not entirely sure that was the intent, mostly because some of the acting is pretty high quality stuff. It just really stood out upon my second viewing. Like many issues, it was mostly forgotten with all the other issues I had that trumped it.

Another is Rey's delivery of that line... "We need you because Kylo is strong in the dark side of the Force.".... or something to that effect. It just sounds off within the film for the most part. I can't help but think there must have been a better way to deliver that message that didn't sound so corny.

Rose had a couple lines too, but they felt more genuine, she sold them as best anyone could, I just didn't buy into it. Admittedly, I was already jaded by that point.

Then of course there's the beginning with Hux.

Beyond that I mostly found the acting to be average/tolerable to great. I don't find acting was the issue for this movie, and those examples I give I could have easily have overlooked had I not been pulled out of the experience for other reasons throughout the movie. It's just if I'm already struggling to immerse myself and suspend my disbelief, and then get one of those lines, I have to start all over again.

Any other lines or scenes that the dialogue felt forced to you?

 

I'm on /r/Saltierthancrait too

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 25, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 25, 2018 ---

The dialogues are full with 2017 expressions who hasn't their place in Star Wars.