Why a "Gray" Force, if true, will ruin Star Wars and the Sequels

Hmm I getting lots of warnings and people saying I am freaking out.

To be honest even prior to the trailer the ditching of the Jedi was roaming around in theories. So when I heard the line in the trailer I was disappointed.

You are right it might not mean that much.

 

I mean...it sounds like you're saying there NEEDS to be sith and jedi to have conflict....if..and i mean IF, because i don't know how this will go either way, IF the Jedi go "Gray"...that DOES NOT eliminate evil from the galaxy...it doesn't eliminate the fact that there can be more evil...So what if they embrace the light and dark..or whatever...it still allows someone to show up and be like.."Mehhh.....I'm all evil...i'm not a sith...i'm not a Jedi...but i'm evil..." Heck...the Jedi don't even necessarily need to face other force users...there is ENDLESS possibilities of where this could go.
I look forward to seeing where this film will go...I think people are just panicking with this the jedi ending teaser so much...i mean ffs Hamill said it was him..several times and people STILL needed to try and find a way to make it not Luke speaking...Don't hand in your fan card yet...and even if the Jedi "End" or go "Gray" in 8...we still have 9 coming.

 

"Good" versus "evil" is only good versus evil from a certain point of view...

Constantly rehashing Jedi vs Sith will become extremely tiring after awhile. Personally, I would love nothing more than for SW to explore the moral ambiguities that arise from taking a deeper look at what is "good" and what is "evil."

Somewhat off topic (but still clinging to relevance), I'd love to see a standalone film from the perspective of those that oppose the Light.

 

I can't speak for others but its not about the Sith its about the Jedi. Prior to the Phantom Menace they thought the Sith were gone but they still had a mission serving as protectors, diplomats, and so on. If the term Sith never gets said ever again it won't matter. The term Jedi is very different. Its tied to the OT (when they never mention the sith). In ANH you miss the Jedi they are gone from the galaxy and if they existed they would stand against the Empire. That's why Luke is the hope. He's going to go to Alderan and kearn the ways of the force and become a Jedi. Jedi fought for justice, the defended the Old Republic, the were resisting evil long before we learned the had a Sith to serve as nemesis. As such Jedi have a much stronger connection to being the good guys. Its not keeping the binary struggle going its about not separating from the "I am a JEDI like my father before me."

Moral ambiguities are fine heroes that fail are compelling anti heroes are great. But its not about keeping the Jedi vs Sith going eternally its about separating the Jedi from being good.

Which point of view that's not delusional or evil would justify lightsabreing children? Sure Anakin would say well Jedi are evil. But at that moment wasn't he pretty delusional and consumed by evil. Moral relativity is great for arguing against objective moral systems, but when someone treats you unfairly you instantly recognize its wrong.

 

I agree. The Jedi are almost synonymous with Star Wars. To eliminate that word/title from the saga just changes it the whole thing for me. I don't mind them exploring new ways of viewing balance of the and what went wrong with PT Jedi order, but the Jedi need to remain the good guys. Luke can reform the Jedi Order, just not dismantle it (please!).

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2017 ---

Everything is as the force wills it...

 

Folks, this notion that there is a "grey" aspect to the Force, between light and dark, has already been introduced into canon, and with the hand of none other than George Lucas on the tiller.

Go back and watch the "Mortis" episodes from season 3 of The Clone Wars. Then see if you want to start hollering about how you'll bail from Star Wars fandom if anything like a "grey Force" is introduced by Disney-era LFL. Ol' George deliberately paved the way for it years ago.

 

I suspect the three main characters - Rey, Kylo, and Finn - will each end up representing one "perspective" of the force (Dark, Light, Balance)

 

Interesting, i had recently said something similar on another thread. I had said I can see the trilogy ending with Rey fully turned to the dark side (but still assisting in stopping Snoke), Finn fully realizing his force abilities and training in the lights and Kylo fully denouncing Snoke and helping the other two. Ideally I would want Luke to end the jedi as we knew it and reform it in a more ancient form calling it the Jedi-Ashla (basically the only difference would be less strict and allow emotions instead of suppressing them), at the same time Snoke would reform the Sith as the Bogun-Sith (as he is rumored to be an ancient Sith he probably would know the original name of the dark side) and then there is Kylo who after seeing the force ghost of Anakin would discover what the Bendu was and form his own teachings for those conflicted on both sides calling it the Bendu.

 

I was kinda hoping this claim was going to be followed up with some evidence! I'm open to anything tangible relating to...

...before writing the whole post off as hyperbole and strawmen!

Speaking of hyperbole...

I enjoyed reading your post (the last half like words uttered by every grumpy old man in history) yet I also expect you'd struggle to find anybody who actually believes a single sentence bar the last one.

What worries me is putting a fallible and imperfect institution on a pedestal and calling foul if some defects present themselves. It reminds me of people who tag "ist" on the end of someone's name to label themselves as though they've joined a personality cult - nothing spoils something on a pedestal like a little research into shortcomings.

Better to aspire to whatever is admirable about people and institutions and work on identifying and avoiding the failings methinks.

What about the argument that, like evil, there are likely other forms of good in the galaxy outside of Jedi cultivation?

 

@Moral Hazard

You could have an evil faction, who unlike the Sith, purely seek wealth or are a bunch of religious loons. You could have a group that are nihilists and just want destruction. But when it comes to the Jedi, there is no better way than combating all forms of evil - and trying to find some middle of the road Order just diminishes the morality of the story.

The Jedi embody he best of the light - that is what sets the Jedi apart from any other person or group that aligns themselves with the light. They're the pinnacle of the light side and this is why makes them so powerful. Likewise, the Sith were the pinnacle of the dark side which is why they were so powerful (compared with the night sisters etc).

 

Am i the only one who thinks Finn is NOT force sensitive, and is just a normal joe?

 

Sure the Jedi were successful at maintaining their power and influence over the galaxy until that one guy all but destroyed them.

But "no better way" is a big claim for a relatively small window of time and space. I doubt even the most arrogant of PT Jedi would assume there was no room for improvement, more knowledge, wisdom, or techniques regarding the great mysteries to be learned from the myriad of species and cultures in the GFFA.

Thousands of generations and Qui-Gon only just recently learned a practice to cultivate a form of immortality. Who knows what other methods and technologies have been explored and evolved in the universe over eons?

 

https://www.healthstatus.com/health_blog/wellness/meds/

 

I'm not saying the Jedi got it right all the time but what they stood for and what they should be was right. Compassion. Selflessness. Love.

You could amend the ways in which you achieve these goals but you'd still be Jedi. For instance, if we say "the Jedi can get married as long as you don't get possessive", are we saying that these folk wouldn't be Jedi? I don't think so. They'd just be modern Jedi.

It all comes down to what makes someone a Jedi. I think it is clearly someone who solely uses the force in a compassionate and selfless way, directed by the will of the force and thus rejecting the dark side and anything that is self serving. That is the core of what this to be Jedi (with all the Force knowledge etc just being part of what you receive by agreeing to those terms). So he question is, can you better those simple core precepts? I don't think so and thus see no good reason to end the Jedi. Any other group will simply have precepts that are closer to the dark side and thus empower the dark side and outside of the gffa, muddy the moral guide within the mythology.

 

That's an assumption.
The Mortis arc is for sure about the Balance and the Chosen One.
But you cannot say it's about Gray, for sue. Gray is never mentioned during those episodes.
That Balance = Gray is something yet to be proven. I personally disagree, for example,
taking into account all the Journal of Whills quote and not just one word.

In addition the Mortis Arc is one of the most obscure things ever made in the SWU.
There are hundred of interpretations.

We can talk about it for hours, so I'll speak about only two details people don't focus on as much as perhaps they should do.

1- The Daughter (the Light) sacrifices herself to save the Father (the balance) allowing the Son (the Dark side) to kill her.
To me, that coud be a metaphore of the Light side that sacrifices itself during Order 66.
I say "sacrifices", becouse in the Yoda's arc is made clear that Order 66 is something that the Light side knows it is about to happen,
yet Yoda is not told or instructed how to prevent it, but just how to resist the dark times to come.

And that's because
2- What the Father says to the dead body of the Daughter? That his mistake was he wanted to change the course of events.
That's also hinted in the opening crawl of one of the 3 episodes of the Mortis Arc.

What I get from the Mortis Arc + everything else, is that to save the Balance from the Dark Side whose nature is the cause of the imbalance
the Light Side choice is to sacrifices itself and let the Chosen One repair the damage.
Because, if you don't want to change the course of events (which is evel, no matter what) you only have to trust the will of the Force.
You only have to believe what was prophesied, that the Chosen One will bring balance, no matter how.

 

While the "grey" idea has indeed already been introduced canonically (the Bendu for instance), it's absolutely not 100% that it is the route they'll chose to go with.
The "so much more" line could mean well... much more, not just the grey idea. In fact, I hope it's more than just this middle route scheme again, that would be rather boring. The Jedi Order needs fundamental reforms though, that's for sure.

Again, for the 100th time. "Disney" does not come up with the ideas. It's Lucasfilm, or in this case Rian Johnson.

Simple duality mythology dosen't necessarily means it's solely for kids. Btw this is only true for the OT though. In the PT it was already sort of challanged.

It is still not explained canonically what a sith is, what the nature of the dark side is, or what exactly were they having revenge on. So far we pretty much only know that they are all named darth for some reason and posess a red lightsaber (because it looks cool I guess).

Unless they use their powers to force poor gungas to give them a ship; or to cheat on a bet; or when they don't seem to have any problem with people being slaves (in a world where slavery is banned); or human beings being literally bread, brainwashed and genetically modified to fight in wars, grow up faster (thus live a sigificantly shorter life) solely for bizarre capitalistic needs.

 

no

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 19, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 19, 2017 ---

Bendu never says of himself I'm grey.
He says "I'm the one in the middle". Again, it's people that say middle=balance=grey
I guess you have to think about all his arc in Rebels to understand what "II'm the one in middle" does really mean/imply.

 

It's about the resolving of gray, not the actual gray. Now go cry in a corner.

 

I think Luke's "time to end the Jedi" line in the trailer, actually is from the beginning of the movie.

Rey meets Luke, Luke is reluctant because of reasons, they get in an argument, Luke says that Internet dividing line, Rey gets Luke to change his mind, Luke starts to train Rey, the rest of the movie happens.

The reason Luke, eehm, reasons this way is somewhat touched upon in the SWNN article about some familiar planets returning. The dude's been gone for years, and he's alone. So whatever he read or learned, there's no one to challenge his train of thought (unless there's an ancient Jedi message board in the SW Holonet).
Enter Rey, which makes Luke - albeit reluctantly - change his mind.


About the whole "grey Jedi" thing. I understands people's disliking, but given the recent knowledge we got regarding the Force, it's clear to me the Story Group is expanding our view of the Force. Just remember Pablo Hidalgo's multiple twitter rant, he basically acknowledges this.

I do think, however, the main saga will incorporate these new ideas, but keeping it simple enough for everyone (general audiance) to understand with the novels, cartoons etc. fleshing out the details.

And to all the naysayers, it's unfortunate you feel this way, but I for one have faith it'll all be handled in a way which is respectful to the already established canon.

 

In all honesty, let's see how the movie shakes out before we start saying we are 'done' with the franchise. I was guilty of that when I read a spoiler for TFA where Luke was only going to be in the movie at the end for 30 seconds, as I was so mad I almost didn't see the movie. In the end, I loved the ending and I actually thought it was brilliant.

Now I'm not saying we can't speculate, discuss, and even argue about TLJ because that's what these forums are for. But taking a specific stand against something that we don't know is 100% true, or without seeing it on screen in the proper context, is judging a book by it's cover.