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Why a "Gray" Force, if true, will ruin Star Wars and the Sequels

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Apr 18, 2017.

  1. YubNubBub

    YubNubBub Rebelscum

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    What Im saying is... the Sequels may not fit with 1-6 if they take this route.

    We have all the canon available. But if you make new canon that conflicts with the original rules, canon, then you delegitimize the prior saga. As I said before, Episode 6 showed that Light was the balance, and the prophecy fulfilled.

    If you introduce a middle ground, you destroy that work. The work to show consitent heroes that do not stray from the light, maintaining their dignity and honor.

    Instead you have mushing of light and dark. Can light and dark exist together in real life? Can you blend a shadow together with light? I am not speaking colors, which are a reflection of light. I am speaking of actual blending of light with dark. You cannot. When a light turns on the darkness flees.

    So there you have it. If they write new canon which conflicts with the canon from Episodes 1-6, they delegitimize the Sequel trilogy from the saga.
     
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 Jedi General

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    the fact that Jesus didn't act or look like a warrior king didn't "delegitimize" old canon.
    it added something new. a new idea. a new perspective.

    that's the nature of revelation.

    good storytelling takes us someplace new.
    it doesn't just keep building honeycomb cells over and over and over.
    that's the job of drones (or clones). literally.
     
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  3. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Rebel General

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    Rules aren't exactly a Lucas thing - guidelines, yes - but Lucas' entire career can be said to be a rejection of dogma, whether it be Hollywood's dogma, genre-rules, and making the impossible, possible. That's probably why the Jedi are depicted as dogmatic and clueless in the PT (which was a shock to the audience at the time but works beautifully 1-6 and likely is what is working in Luke's mind right now).

    Light and dark do exist in tandem - its called, Anakin Skywalker. "I can see the good in you, the conflict." To think otherwise is to cheapen a story to heroes are always good and perfect (which is a criticism of Rey as a character - so that's dumb) and villains are always evil.

    There's a reason why Superman has been difficult to pull off cinematically, and why Wolverine and Batman always get the audience's preference. They are the embodiment of real life choices that don't conform to strict morality. They represent the human ego, id, and superego and the struggle between the three that is our personality. Lucas was a student of Jung, Freud and their influences on Campbell and the struggle of the hero. The hero's journey is only to know oneself, and the embrace and defeat one's shadow character that represents the hero's own identity (usually with a reference to familial/paternal legacy). What we are characterizing as 'grey' (a stupid term because its never used in canon) can be said only to be the hero presently struggling with him/herself and his/her place in the galaxy. Luke has to now find a proper place or identity for himself (and the Jedi) now that his journey to redeem his father, and his father's journey itself, is over. Luke has obviously struggled to do that, and what he does now is our question, and that's cool. If he was going to follow some predetermined (in our own minds - also useless) philosophy, than why even have these films.

    That is the constant struggle of the hero - against oneself, so its very much within the purview of Star Wars to discuss this in pretty plain terms, which is why a space opera with a cowboy piloting a spaceship with a Yeti co-pilot, a farmboy, a samurai, a garbage can robot that doesn't speak for some reason and a butler robot can still grab multiple generations of fans.
     
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  4. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    I have to say I disagree with this. The balance for me presented in 1-6 was that light and dark in the galaxy and by extension the force, were balanced. The Sith unbalanced this because they spread evil everywhere. Dark overpowered light. When Anakin destroyed the Sith, light and dark was balanced again. This is the role of the Jedi. To destroy those who spread evil and maintain the delicate balance between light and dark.

    What concerns me however is the notion that the Jedi need to be replaced for some greater purpose or that they need to move into the grey area. That is baloney in my opinion. The Jedi can only maintain the balance by staying firmly in the light. Not by being in the middle where they'd be masters of nothing and likely help empower the dark side.

    The nitty gritty of the Jedi can change - they should of course be separate from the Republic. They could allow family life. But they should stick by the precepts Qui Gon and later Kenobi and Yoda lived by - a selfless devotion to the will of the force, guided by the living force and a rejection of greed through compassion, selflessness and love.
     
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  5. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Rebel General

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    I honestly think the 'balance' thing, is archaic Jedi dogma. That's part of their arrogance. The part of "misunderstood, may have been".

    Also, the Mortis arc....to me....is overblown. Sure, it has an interesting take on 'balance', but ultimately all the players are destroyed and erased from existence, so.....yeah.

    Yoda's arc is another interesting take on acceptance of one's own dark side and that yes, one's own dark side and light side do exist within oneself, and accepting that fact is important to 'balance', like the one in the middle, the Bendu. (awww man....can we get a Bendu emojii??????????)
     
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  6. dewi

    dewi Rebel Trooper

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    It's probably best not to even use the Force at all. Using the good side or the bad side creates problems. Not many people in the galaxy know about it so maybe the idea is to stop using it. Just let the Force be with you lol

    Unless there's another side of it that should be the perfect way to use it.
     
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  7. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Rebel General

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    Funny thing is...no one is really saying that there is.

    We are putting words and constructs to the writers mouths. We're already committing the sin of 1999 - constructing our own story instead of Jar-Jar Binks (ok, that was a low blow to TPM, but I couldn't help myself).

    The only thing we sort-of know is that Luke is having trouble training new Jedi, including one as challenging as his own nephew, who's got some abandonment issues and delusions of grandeur now, leading to patricide. That's about all we can discern from a 90 second trailer and some novels that don't even cover Luke and Ben/Kylo's story.

    Luke having difficultly squaring his limited knowledge of what the Jedi are and how they came to be so powerful and prominent is very far from "Oh, there's some sort of third color to add to the 'Jedi' spectrum!".
     
  8. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    Maybe. I certainly see some sociopathic trends in the way many societies are organised and the distances between our actions and their effects. I'm not sure if people are so much "afraid of the dichotomy of Good and Bad" as they are cautious about adopting an extremist position - especially where the adherents consider themselves to be "right and true" and all other ways "evil".

    This idea of some kind of descent into moral decay is interesting and seems to be a powerful story that resonates with a lot of people. I guess I'm struggling to see all the evidence pointing to such a general conclusion but I'm no expert. Broadly speaking, the world today could be said to have made much moral progress with regard to slavery, the treatment of women and minorities, infant mortality etc. yet at the same time environmental destruction and pollution has reached unprecedented levels and countless people continue to needlessly suffer from famine, war and disease.

    I'd be curious to know how, where, and when people think the moral climate changed exactly? I still see huge amounts of people today adhering to laws from bronze-age tribes and some ancient cultures followed moral precepts that parallel the most egalitarian and humane of modern times. I'm pretty sure theft, rape, child abuse, and killing (outside of war times) have been frowned upon by most cultures in human history - long before any governmental laws or revealed commandments prohibited such behavior.

    Maybe I'm missing something but I don't see such a clear moral decline or a “fear of good and evil” myself – just a diverse world of differing rules with common threads throughout. Punching a pregnant woman in the stomach at any time or place on the planet is likely to cause moral outrage. Some moral ambiguity exists in the fact good people have always been capable of evil and bad people capable of doing good things and sometimes it's hard to see it happening. To me this is a lesson the PT drives home along with the dangers of good intentions and action vs inaction. I'm guessing these are incongruities that Luke may be struggling to reconcile with his moral intuition, his life experiences, and his received tradition.
     
    #128 Moral Hazard, Apr 20, 2017
    Last edited: Apr 20, 2017
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  9. Julius Fett

    Julius Fett Rebelscum

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    Well, actually, in Empire's End there is a passage, from the perspective of a member of the Church of the Force, no less, that says "all hail the light, the dark, and the gray". So, canonically speaking...we do have a mention of a third "gray" area of the Force (though I certainly agree with many of your points).

    Personally, I don't think that a "grey" will ruin the story of the sequels necessarily, but it could, if handled wrong, go quite a way to making it impossible to empathise some character in a GFFA. Being morally grey, like the Bendu, is all well and good, but the theme of good vs evil, destiny and decisions is a vital component to the motivations of every SW character.

    Now, if we find Luke attempting to be a grey character at the start of TLJ ("it's time for the Jedi to end", etc.) then I'm all for it: this might well be his best intention at keeping potential Jedi from harm and from any more potential Jedi falling to the Dark Side, further imbalancing the Force. So long as Rey can find a way - whether it be by being Luke's daughter or otherwise - to breathe some new life into Luke's emptying mind and to give us a character that we can once again feel attached to, then I'm all for it.

    Is there a greater understanding of the Force that we're likely missing going into TLJ? Sure, probably so. But is it going to be this fusion of dark and light - this proposed "grey" - that wins out? In my opinion, no.
     
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  10. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Rebel Official

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    I still don't understand why this idea of "The Grey" is such a difficult concept to grasp.

    I don't think this is what is being signaled at all.

    The OT, in particular, introduced us to "grey" moral choices, and the conflict between light and dark within us all (THAT is The Grey, nothing more, nothing less), but it did so in a very subtle way that the average movie go-er probably just glossed right over: Luke blowing up the Death Star despite the fact that there would be relatively innocent lives lost and Luke struggling with the choice of whether or not to kill his own father or join him to save his friends. The lines between the light side and dark side were clearly drawn so that these morally grey areas were not the central focus of the films.

    Then, the PT expounded on the "grey" in a bit more of a direct way by clearly showing us how making what are arguably moral choices can still result in unintended consequences that are devastating to the galaxy and actually end up being quite evil.

    Now, in the ST, we will likely have an even more pronounced inspection of, and focus on, the morally grey areas that every hero has to overcome, both within themselves and in the galaxy at large. And upping the stakes in the process. Consider it a change in focus, not a radical change in philosophy.

    We have Luke who learned through his own journey that these tough choices are not so black and white (or dark and light). He had the "light" telling him he must kill his father. He had the "dark" telling him the only way he could save his friends was to give in to his hate and anger. Luke chose the path no one saw, arguably in the middle: neither. In that instance, it worked out for Luke, the Force, and the galaxy as a whole. He learned that neither the Jedi nor the Sith were right. Luke was truly embodying the Light in a way that his Jedi predecessors had not. But as we have been told, the brighter the light, the greater the shadow... In this case, Luke's shadow is the legacy of Darth Vader that was left behind. The overwhelming effect on his family. Leia. Ben Solo... perhaps Rey.

    It is possible Luke tried to re-build the Jedi in the form of his predecessors, kind of a PT era Jedi (mistaken) belief that their way was the correct path to the Light. It failed. Maybe through his focus on rebuilding the Jedi Order, Luke forgot or became diverted from his truly enlightened path, which was neither what the Jedi nor Sith tried to get him to follow. (I know @master_shaitan, I know... you don't think his path diverged from Obi Wan and Yoda's teachings.... agree to disagree.)

    Maybe like his father, Luke's nephew was lost with this kind of PT era guidance (and with a malevolent bad guy in his ear..). Perhaps afterward, Luke thought that the best path forward was the one that worked before, his "third" or "middle" choice: stop fighting. "I cannot kill my own nephew." Maybe it is this thinking that has led him to the conclusion that both the Sith and Jedi must end.

    But this is obviously not working either and Luke will have to learn the lesson that sometimes you have to make those hard choices that do not seem to have an easy answer. That gives Luke a character arc that is not yet complete. Yes, please. Someone will have to be trained to confront Kylo Ren and potentially bring him back.

    I personally think that the storygroup has tried very hard to make Kylo Ren appear to be irredeemable to illustrate just how hard these morally "grey" choices are. Too many people are putting the focus of "grey" in the wrong place. At the end of the day, none of this is about "Grey Jedi" or morally ambiguous people... it is about how you deal with such morally ambiguous circumstances... using "refined sight" to "resolve the grey." It is all spelled out for us...

    Yes! YES! YES!!!

    I don't even think it will be the "fusion" of light and dark that wins out. The "grey" exists in all of us. The "grey" is the conflict between light and dark, not their fusion. The "grey" only wins out so long as our heroes (and villains) continue to make morally ambiguous decisions that result in evil, even if unintended.
     
    #130 Dark Toilet, Apr 21, 2017 at 12:38 AM
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 1:47 AM
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  11. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Rebel Official

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    Well put.

    If I was a Jedi today and facing Dooku or Sidious and had a chance to end them I probably would see it as a necessary evil. I would also be very aware killing is not the ideal scenario, that it would fit closer to the “dark” end of the spectrum (despite my selfless intentions) and I would expect to struggle with increased dark side temptation, guilt, shame, regret, self-loathing, etc. as long as I lived.

    Still I would make the decision to kill and perhaps consider some kind of Seppuku to mitigate the danger to others. Perhaps if it is selfless enough one might still retain some Force consciousness after death?
     
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  12. Dark Toilet

    Dark Toilet Rebel Official

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    Very interesting. I agree that at the end of the day, these "necessary evils" would probably have been the right choices. I, too, would probably struggle with such a guilty conscience for the rest of my days...

    So what if what Luke has really been doing on Ach-to has something to with such Seppuku to mitigate the danger to others? Not exactly suicide, but dealing with his guilty conscience... having killed everyone on the Death Star, losing his nephew, etc. If they want to give Luke some further character arc, I think it would be fascinating to see him now still struggling with his own internal "conflict" or "grey" between light and dark.
     
    #132 Dark Toilet, Apr 21, 2017 at 1:45 AM
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2017 at 1:50 AM
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  13. lealt

    lealt Rebelscum

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    I really really like most of the things you're saying.
    And I guess you may be 90% right.
    I don't say 100% because... Obi Wan didn't tell Luke to kill Vader.
    He said "you have to FACE Vader".
    It was Luke that at first thought "to face = to kill"
    Maybe that was Obi Wan true intention (to kill)
    but we cannot be sure.
    I personally like the idea, that he wanted Luke to understand what he really have to do alone.

    It would change something in our excellent explaination, but not so much.
    Very well done
     
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  14. dewi

    dewi Rebel Trooper

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    Maybe the plan was that Luke would FACE Vader so he would 'see the light' and redeem himself. Bevause Anakin used to have a strong attachment to family.

    When Luke temporarily defeated Vader, he didn't use anger or emotion, he used aggression, in response to Vader's statement about his sister. This tapping into the aggression behaviour could possibly mean the Gray area. Is Kylo Ren using Gray? Did he learn aggression behaviour from his uncle?
     
  15. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    Luke did get angry though - that was the point. He beat down Vader by using the dark side with Sidious looking on with glee. Only when he saw what he was becoming did he throw down his saber, rejecting the dark side and embracing the light as a Jedi.

    I personally don't think the Jedi were being black and white about what Luke had to do - just that needed to be prepared to do whatever the force willed - be it destroying his father or not. It was all about Luke letting go of his desires and fears and doing what was right in the moment.

    That whole scene is about Luke moving from grey into the light. It surprising me that people take anything else from this scene.
     
  16. dewi

    dewi Rebel Trooper

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    "To control aggression without inflicting injury is the Art of Peace" ~ some quote

    Sure Luke servered Vader's hand, but it couldve been a robot hand. I'm just thinking out of the box because Ren has aggression issues which is a focal point.
     
  17. BobaFettNY21

    BobaFettNY21 Rebel General

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    Yoda never says 'kill' - only to 'confront', however, Luke states to Obi-Wan: "I can't kill my own father."
    Obi-Wan responds: "Well, then the Emperor has already won."

    So Obi-Wan was still stuck in that line of thinking, which makes Yoda's vision quest at the end of Clone Wars a possible signal that Yoda is beginning to understand the greater mystery and keeps options open - including apparently, going into exile and finding another path to victory. And Yoda doesn't prescribe Luke a course of action when he says: "you will know, when you are at peace" when Luke wants to know a bright line rule (common law legal term) for what is dark side and what is light. So even Yoda, at the time of the OT, seems to be embracing a differing view of the Force and all its aspects.
     
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  18. master_shaitan

    master_shaitan Jedi Commander

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    I think Kenobi is really responding there to Luke's attachment to his father. Luke has to be willing to at least consider another course of action beyond trying to save his father.
     
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  19. Charlie07

    Charlie07 Force Sensitive

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    [​IMG] [​IMG]



    In response to people saying the symbol means "grey jedi". Pablo has to point out the obvious.

     
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  20. Maximus

    Maximus Rebel Official

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    when we analyze these things to the Nth degree..as we always do of course, a great deal of the Jedi related stuff in ROTJ didn't make a lot of sense.

    I'll never understand why Yoda/Kenobi pushed Luke to face Vader. My simple logic tells me that the last Jedi should be wrapped in cotton wool until everything blows over and a new academy can be started. Luke would have gone anyway of course... but why would Yoda exile himself for all those years to risk the last Jedi, and an emotional half trained one at that? the Long game for the galaxy has to surely be the survival of the Jedi?

    I like to remain open about that. What your explaining is what i'd like to have happened, but i remind myself that we don't know what Luke was like after ROTJ.

    we cannot refute the fact that Luke rejected the Emperor and threw down his weapon... but we cannot say for a fact that Luke pushed away all dark sided gremlins from his system in that moment.

    it's a case of picking out what we do definitely know, and making our own minds up.

    Yoda:
    was the ikkle green dude wrong?
     
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