SPECULATION Why Did Ben Solo Turn to the Dark Side?

Apologies on advance if I mention Harry Potter here, but in some way Kylo Ren reflects Snape and Voldemort on this: they had a Muggle (non-magical) father and a wizard mother, and both used a different name than their original at some point to separate themselves from their true self, like neglecting their non-magical heritage.

I know, it sounds terrible because I cannot imagine someone despising being Han Solo's child.

 

LOL You know that wouldn't be the case, Han being shaggy himself.

 

hahaha ~ i will take your word on the comparison since i don't Potter, but yes, it's unfathomable that Ben has rejected what many of us think he should absolutely want.

but i think it's exactly a case of him appearing to be spoiled and lacking appreciation for his great parents when, well, i'm sorry to say, that kind of "greateness" was not what he needed from them.

 

Not to mention scruffy-looking.

 

The dark side is always talked about as an unnatural decision. I suppose because in the story it always leads to destruction, of the ideological, the physical and the mental states of those who wield it. But Anakin's reasons for perusing the dark side while mislead weren't inherently evil. The PT story line was so ham-fisted that much nuance was lost but if you imagine it directed with more focus on the nature of democracy and the true virtues of the force you can see that Anakin was right. The Jedi we're corrupt and stagnant. They were oppressors and governors and very elitist about the knowledge of the force. So I don't think you need evil or even misguided reasons to 'Turn to the Dark side'
I mean why did Luke pursue the light?

Ben Solo may have had legitimate grievance with the New Republic. And the thing about his mind being all warped by Snoke, Its probably true. But he didn't just hear that Vader failed to unite the galaxy because of Luke. Ben trained with Luke, he would have known Luke's motivations well and no amount of Darkside whispering would have hidden Luke's character from Ben. I think Ben has some other Legitimate grievance with Luke.

Luke was always conflicted, human and weak when it came to the right thing to do. (These are also things that make Luke a brilliant lead) To think that the Skywalker Heir, most powerful and last Jedi in the Galaxy chose to train a bunch of kids could easily seem like a failing in Ben's eyes. I mean, He's the Grandson of Anakin Skywalker and Luke is the son. Yet Luke didn't seem to be trying to lead the people, or even reveal himself to them. He could have been a kind of King Arthur figure but chose to spend his years teaching kids. From Ben's point of view, having a mother involved in the political side of stuff. I'm sure it looked like Luke was shirking his duties as the Last great force user.

I think Kylo Ren is not bad through and through.
He Kills folk yes. But he doesn't kill that solider he chokes, instead he smashes a control panel.
He doesn't kill Finn when he could, he reaches for the Skywalker sabre.
He try's to reach Rey with words rather than end her life.
In the novelisation he is notably shaken when Starkiller base destroys the Republic.

I don't think Kylo Ren sees the Dark side as an evil, or even a corrupting force. Its just that Snoke seems to want to unite the Galaxy, while the last Jedi hides on a rock and Leia, the other Skywalker, never stepped up to the role of Galactic Saviour.

I think the destruction of the Republic will Affect Kylo's resolve to do what Snoke says.
I also think there will be a reason Kylo killed Luke's students. Maybe he saw the same force elitism that Anakin saw in the PT.

That could also explain why Kylo was fascinated by Rey. A girl outside of the Sith/Jedi internal struggle for power. But a girl with incredible powers none the less.

 

Snoke wants to unite the galaxy? That's the first time I heard someone saying this, but what he is doing is destroying the galaxy instead.

 

he certainly thinks he does.
we don't get this in the movie, but the book strongly implies he has Centrist political views.
and beyond that, feels duty-bound to see the galaxy turned over to a higher power.

i agree. though i think his beef with Luke is more personal (it's wrapped up in destroying Vader and Vader's goals).

i like this idea, nonetheless. whatever people say about Ren being an emo brat, the truth is, he's very fixed on duty and a sense of order and "right". it's just that his discernment of those things is so perverted.

i agree. he does some terrible things, but he's not fundamentally terrible by design.

i think it will be less about the Republic, which he objected to, but seemed to resign himself, and more about Han and Rey and probably Leia. Snoke's claws on Ren are already weakened by the end of TFA. the kid's not stupid. he's going to start fighting back if he thinks Snoke's orders are interfering with his destiny.

or he didn't kill them. we still don't know this for certain. or there are circumstances there that are yet unrevealed.

could be the first time he has met someone he could consider a peer.
in his loneliness, he might think she is the only person who could possibly understand him and his sense of mission.

 

Assuming that Hux and Snoke are united in the goals of the First Order, then Hux's starry-eyed speech pretty much summarizes the First Order's main goal--to eliminate disorder. So I would say that yes, in a strange, skewed way, Snoke and the First Order are determined to unite the galaxy by stomping out disorder. My guess is, if Snoke has to destroy most of the galaxy to get to "order," then so be it.

However, Snoke seems to have other agendas too, regarding Skywalker and the Jedi...

 

precisely!

my thought on Snoke, Hux, and Ren is that they are all united under this "idea" of Order in the galaxy.

• Snoke is looking after Snoke: he just wants the Jedi dead; he could care less about the petty operations of mere mortals.
• Hux wants power. oh lordy does he want power. hungry little beast.
• Ren is the idealist. he thinks it's actually possible to have a unified galaxy full of peace and prosperity. poor deluded kid.

at the moment they are all just using one another.

 

I suppose yeah, What Snokes actual goal is is still clouded. He may want to consume the living force or something absurd.
Han Solo definitely believed that Snoke was simply using Ben for his force powers and would discard him afterwards. And that doesn't really point towards Snoke actually wanting to rule the Galaxy with Kylo Ren at his side.
It points towards Snoke just wanting absolute power of some kind.

But I think Kylo Ren genuinely believes that Snoke does want to unite the galaxy or at least that their goals line up for the time being so that Kylo can complete Vader's task and unite the galaxy, bring order to the force and so on.

I assume Han's line about Snoke just using Ben for his power and then discarding him will be proven true as the story continues.
Its only really weather Kylo Ren see's this before its too late that matters (such as Vader's final redemption against the Emperor)

I think there is still a chance that Kylo Ren could go Grey-Jedi esque, if he defects from Snoke in ep8 he could go rogue. Especially if its revealed that his killing of Luke's students wasn't as it appears.

But yeah, on topic I think his turn to the darkside is actually just a certain point of view. I mean, hes not a sith. He isn't a Darth. He's his own agent working with Snoke but trying to achieve his own (mostly Vaders) goals.

I also stand by the idea that when Han confronted him Kylo Ren may have been trying to point the lightsaber at himself, and Han took the decision away from him.

 

From Bloodline, it sounds like the NR was frustrating for pretty much everyone who thought government should accomplish anything!

 

+1

Someone bring a bottle of the finest Corellian whisky to this one.

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2016 ---

Let's think just for a minute on the perspective some Imperials had regarding the Empire. Of course we do know the Emperor was a Sith Lord, but this was unknown to most of the galaxy. People like Sloane, Ciena Ree, etc regarded the Empire was the ruler of order in the galaxy. And if the New Republic was not able to keep that order, of course it will seem like a failure for those who regarded the Empire organization in high esteem.

 

Hmm, I think (hope) there is more to this than a simple "turn to the dark side". First, and this is relevant, I am not certain that Luke is on Ach-to voluntarily. I think he was exiled. If he went into hiding voluntarily, I cannot believe that he would leave a trail of bread crumbs to find him. I believe that he was involuntarily exiled by someone. He is not on Ach-to by choice.

That said, I am kinda hoping that Ben, was in fact planted with Snoke under Luke's guidance in order to infiltrate and destroy him from the inside. This however has led to conflict which Ben has struggled with for a while. He needs the power of the dark side to succeed at destroying Snoke without being consumed by it. Snoke senses that there is conflict in him. Sacrificing his father in the name of the dark side is a certain way to gain the trust of Snoke. "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it". He knows he must kill his father in order to gain Snoke's trust. But he doesn't know if he can actually go through with it. He feels relief as he kills Han, but also feels more of the dark side consuming him.

He see's Rey as a threat to his mission if she cannot see what he is doing. She is powerful and could defeat him. However defeating him would mean the certain failure of his mission to destroy Snoke and the first order from the inside. She however could absolutely be an asset if she were in on the mission. Thus why he tries to talk her into becoming his student. He needs her as an ally to complete his mission, not to seduce her to the dark side and serve Snoke.

He is in search of Luke not to kill him. Ben needs Luke to guide him and keep him grounded. To keep him focused on finishing what his father started. Bringing balance to the force. Not creating an empire and ruling the galaxy. Palpatine started that. Vader was just a pawn, the muscle, a lowly enforcer until he stopped Palpatine and threw him down the chute. "

In short, I don't think Ben turned to the dark side. I think (hope) in fact that he is very much on the light side, infiltrating the dark side but in a state of conflict as he becomes more and more seduced by the dark side. He needs Luke's guidance to know the light, and Anakin's guidance to know the dark, but also how to overcome it as he did. Light and Dark. Balance.

My two cents. But, alas I am not the writer, so we will see...

 

There was a super early leak that said that Luke had a son inside the Empire (First Order) undercover trying to sabotage the mission from the inside.

I assumed Gleeson because he looks slightly Hamilton esque (though its hard to imagine that now)

I like the idea that Kylo Ren is acting the part of Snoke's ally. But I think all evidence points towards him not working with Luke. If he is indeed infiltrating the First Order to dismantle it from within I think its a mission he set himself without Luke/Han or Leia putting him up to it.

He's so willing to kill Lor Tanaka (probably got the name wrong) that I don't think he's acting like a killer. He Genuinely is. But Kylo and the Knights or Ren could come to represent a kind of third party. Apart from the Republic/Jedi and the Empire/Sith.

He is weak alone. and he knows the Snoke's not looking after him and neither is Luke. That probably is why he wanted to turn Rey. So she could help him in his agenda, whatever that may be.

He's in turmoil for sure.

 

welcome to the Cantina, @Cabbie76!

the map they are all chasing after is not to Luke specifically, it's to the first Jedi temple, where they all assume Luke has gone. while that doesn't eliminate the possibility that Luke was put there somehow, we would have to ask: who put him and then couldn't find him again?

if the implication is that Ren put him and is deliberately blundering to avoid "finding" him again, the movie and book doesn't really support that. if it were the case, he would have destroyed BB8 and been done with the whole affair just as Snoke ordered. Snoke doesn't care if they don't find Luke. he just wants to make sure no one does.

double-agent Kylo Ren has been kicked around a lot, but it doesn't hold water well. Ren is too open, too on the surface with his feelings and thoughts. he's incapable of hiding from Snoke, and masterminding anything so devious seems beyond his naivete. he's obedient to Snoke for the most part, and believes what Snoke's sold him (at least for the most part).

and the idea of Luke putting Ben up to infiltrate Snoke at the cost of killing Han is pretty revolting; that he would do that to his nephew, and that his nephew would be put into such a position to make it necessary makes our OT hero despicable to my eyes. seems to me the worst kind of cowardice for Luke to do this to his nephew. worst than anything Snoke's done to the poor kid.

while i don't think Ren is actively plotting against Snoke, i agree that he wants her as an ally.

it'll be interesting to see what he wants from Luke. he clearly has an agenda of his own about his uncle, but whether it's revenge or trying to kill him or turn him remains to be seen. i do agree, however, that Ren Ben thinks his ultimate goal is to stabilize the galaxy. but how he's trying to go about doing this has been compeltely perverted by Snoke and his own anger and pain regarding his family.

i think Ren is trying so hard to be Dark, but nothing he does fully quashes the Light. even killing Han failed him in that regard. but as you said, we shall see!

--- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2016, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2016 ---

while i agree this has been debunked, there is still something off about Hux. they've given him a very particular backstory and why was Gleeson made to wear blue contacts? just odd choices.

that said, Hux is a beast ~ there's no way he is a mole given that he personally destroyed the Hosnian system. even if he did argue against it in the book.

agreed on all these points. i'd love to see the KoR become a junta within the junta ~ hahaha

 

You betcha that Snoke will make those force-trains run on time.