SPECULATION Why Snoke has become most important character

pretty standard theory, really. a lot of this stuff has been covered in the Cantina, especially the Is Luke Rey's Father thread. still, some interesting bits here and there, and a good summary of a lot of the moving pieces at play.

i'm hoping that we get more of a curve ball thrown at us than this guy predicts.

 

True, I would like a little more of a surprise. But he has a point, in that a movie series known for its fun action and appeal to all ages probably isn't going to have a web of unrelated Machiavellian twists. I don't necessarily agree with all of the conclusions he came to, but rather the strategy he used to come to them- rather than thinking of all of our questions as separate events to be deciphered, perhaps we should consider the possibility that everything is more interconnected.

 

True story.snoke is a god of the dark side. Everything in this video is compelling.

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 5, 2017 ---

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 5, 2017 ---

So true.

 

Jason Ward on Sith List podcast: "A new character from a new culture. And that's something that we've never seen before. And I hate to be lame and just say Snoke is Snoke, but everything I've seen that I haven't been able to talk about yet, just leads me to believe that."

 

Ignore all the "stuff" saying Snoke is not Plagueis, because Snoke IS Plagueis.

I say that comfortable. I will cite my analysis in another thread:

Today I present the case that indeed Snoke is Darth Plagueis based upon evidence. It is for you to decide ultimately, but for me, I have indeed decided that Snoke is indeed, Darth Plagueis.

How did I come to this conclusion? I will present my evidence.

First piece of speculative evidence:

During ComicCon before the Force Awakens was released, a fan asked a specific question about Plagueis.

In the clip, after the question is abruptly asked, there is a brief pause. As if JJ and Lawrence Kasdan are deciding how to answer.

First, we need to note psychological evidence here.

First you hear Daisy Ridley speak, to which she says "Aaaaah is that Sn-" to which JJ immediately clears his throat abruptly stopping Daisy from proceeding further, and turns it over to Kasdan. Speculatively I believe Daisy was going to say "Aaaaah is that Snoke.", in innocent fashion.

JJ could have simply answered this question with a simple "no". However he did not do that, he diverted the question to Kasdan, as if not wanting to answer the question.

Next note Kasda's response to the question. He deflected the question by pretending to not understand who he was asking about. Also making it apparent he did not want to answer the question.

But why not simply answer no if Snoke is NOT Plagueis?

Because they both know Snoke IS Plagueis.

Also note after JJ Abrams gets the question again, this time he becomes dismissive. He obviously does not want to spoil the Sequel trilogy with the huge question, therefor immediately and abruptly says "No" and moves on.

Damning evidence that Plagueis is Snoke. You can see from the clip below the evidence.

More speculative evidence, the motives of Disney as a whole:

It is in my opinion, that Disney intends, as many others contend, to desire to tie Episodes 1-6 to the sequel naturally. To do so, making a character out or thin air, a new villan, makes no sense. The object of another villan was setup and readied in Revenge of the Sith. It becomes a case of "pick up the ball and throw it" (also sticking with something familiar, ready to use) or "make an entirely new ball and throw it".

I base this speculative evidence, upon popular opinion of Disney's motives.

Further evidence:

More evidence:

The music is the same from Ep3 and the Snoke scenes.

Onto the counter arguements:

• Physical differences of Snoke to a Munn:

- A valid arguement. However, given we know very little about Plagueis and his complete abilities, it is too soon to say just because he does not appear Muun, this is not Plagueis. Going into speculation, he could have been biologically reconfigured at some point, or used the force to switch carriers, and Palpatine ASSUMED he killed the actual Plagueis.

Because the possibilities as so vast, we can safely assume just because Snoke is not appearingly Muun this does not rule out the fact that, this is not Plageuis.

• Pablo Hidalgo completely debunking this idea:

- I disagree. Misinformation is a vital component to keeping secured information for sakes of revenue, nostalgia, and general secret keeping. It is my professional opinion, his statement is absolutely false.

*****

There you have it. You have why I believe Snoke to be, Darth Plagueis. My mind is made up, and hoping based upon the evidence I presented, while speculative, is compelling enough for you to draw the same conclusion.

I have thought long and hard on this, and if you have any other evidence to support the Darth Plagueis theory, please feel free to reply.

"May the Force be with you"

 

It would be cool if it was Darth Plagueis. That's wild. I mean, it was my first reaction, too. When TFA news started breaking I was waving that Plagueis flag. There is evidence to support either claim; Snoke has seen the rise and fall of the empire, his backstory has been purposely ignored, his obsession with the Skywalker bloodline. As I said, I would be thrilled.

 

Snoke is not DP as far as I can tell. Just not seeing it. There is lots of hopeful speculation and so on but I just don't see it.

I think Kasdan trolled the audience with the Darth Vegas line.

There is canonical look to the Munn DP' species and he does not have the same features.

Given that they failed to keep the shot list secret on TFA and much of the general info was known I can't see the thousands literally THOUSANDS of people who work on the films able to keep the evidence this scant (its also only speculation not evidence) let alone keep a full fledged conspiracy of misinformation going.

 

I don't think I could agree with this more than I currently do, and almost wholly disagree with OP's belief that there are only two paths for Ben to go down. There is a third avenue here for the character, in my opinion.

Now, like it or not, a fourth (and, to some extent, I hope, final) trilogy in the Skywalker story will more than likely be added to the franchise's massive rundown, and this trilogy will require a Big Bad in a similar vain to how Palpatine was for both the OT, and, retrospectively, the PT too. Why would LFL not take the chance to have a villain developed, tried and tested throughout not just this trilogy, but the next, to continue that overarching flow, both thematically and literally, of the Skywalker story? Whilst I am still firmly in the camp of 'I'd rather Rey be a Skywalker as opposed to having direct familial ties to anyone the else', the fact remains that throughout the PT and OT our "main" Skywalker was Anakin, through the OT and ST (I hope, anyway) our "main" Skywalker is Luke and for the ST and in the XT/FT our "main" Skywalker could well be Ben. Thematically, this allows for an overlap, and regardless of who Snoke is - though I agree, Plagueis would have been a great choice as it just adds to the overflowing arc - a familial link of learning from those who came before is a vital essence of the Skywalker story at its core.

We know now that LFL are likely not going to utilise post/mid-credits scenes, but they have been using another smart technique for both storytelling and marketing: the cliffhanger. This storytelling tool was used in both the end of TFA (with Luke literally standing on a cliff, grumble) and RO (though many may not agree here, I think it's certainly a cliffhanger in how it leads into ANH: what will they do with the plans? Will they destroy the Death Star?, etc.), and, in my opinion, will, and should be used to great effect at the end of the ST (if not in TLJ also).

From the visual dictionary for TFA, we know that Ben's fundamental belief is that - due to his lineage and parents - he is something of an heir to the galaxy's position of ruler. Sure, Vader's ghost and Snoke may well have pushed him towards this ideology, but I think the main point that should be taken from this is that he likely didn't wipe out Luke's Jedi Academy "because that will help the FO", no, it seems much smarter than that: what if he, and perhaps Snoke, considered them to be too powerful to allow to grow into an Order that could rival Ben's ascent to ruler of the galaxy? And, furthermore, I firmly believe that this trilogy could very well end with Ben betraying and murdering Snoke (and perhaps Rey being kept in a slumber, if not killed).

This ties in, thematically, with Anakin's arc of wanting to rule the galaxy - this being that which Ben will finish that his grandfather started - and overthrowing the Emperor, and though I do not agree entirely with circle theory, I do believe that it will more than likely have a place in how this trilogy, and the next, pan out. For example, Vader "wins" his duel with Kenobi in ANH (which has an overwhelming impact on how the trilogy will go, as Ben can now continue to teach Luke and direct him towards becoming a Jedi); wins against Luke in TESB; and "loses" to Luke in ROTJ. What if Ben's pattern of victory mirrors that? A loss to Rey in TFA will only perpetuate his desire and hunger for his goal, which could - and very likely will - result in him defeating Rey in TLJ and overcoming whoever he might face in IX (Snoke, Luke, Rey, etc.).

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 9, 2017, Original Post Date: Apr 9, 2017 ---

Whilst I agree that it's increasingly unlike the more we learn about Snoke, I think this evidence is the weakest particular argument for it: Darth Plagueis does not have to be a Muun in canon because he was in Legends; the only canon information we currently have about the character, as far as I'm aware, is that which Palpatine divulged in speaking to Anakin about the Tragedy in ROTS. (And, on a side note: he could have very well been lying about most, if not all, that he said about Plagueis)

 

this made me laugh so hard ~ thank you!

if Snoke isn't Plagueis (and i think not), i believe he's just a big fat macguffin ~ and i still think it's Hux (who no one seems to be paying attention to), who could emerge as the big bad.
Hux has the ambition, he has the command, and his battle of wills with Ren is not there for no reason.
if there is a way for Hux to take Snoke's power, he will do it.

in the same way Rey has been set up as Ren's mirror opposite, Hux kinda is too:

Hux is the scion of an ignominious Imperial commander (and a bastard, to boot), torn from his mother, abused by his father.

Ben is royalty, brought up in love by both parents.​

Hux has been fed from childhood on the poison of a manipulative doctrine that has warped his moral and intellectual compass.

Ben was likely raised on New Republic idealism and attempted to train as Jedi under Luke.​

Hus is/was the puppet of evil people, literally intended by Gallius Rax to take control of the power structure.

Ben is the heir of heroes, assumptive to the Jedi Order.​

Rey is what happens when someone full of hope is raised in a hostile lonely environment where you are forced to carve your destiny.
Ren is what happens when someone full of doubt is raised in a spoiled/indifferent lonely environment and defines destiny by the legacy of others.
Hux is what happens when someone full of fear is raised in a controlling abusive lonely environment that dictates destiny and then expects you to take it by force.

some of the other characters fit this model too. most notably Finn.
thematically, the ideas of nature, nurture, influence and destiny are running the ST.

the villain isn't going to be the most important character in this saga anyway.
the story still belongs to Rey and Ren Ben, most likely.

 

The Tarkin novel is cannon I'm not sure if his being a Munn is mentioned. The traditional view is that he is a Munn. He looks nothing like a Munn. Strangely his Munn and not Munn status is used as a evidence he's DP.

 

Why did this turn into another DP thread?

 

Snoke is an important character. He is not the most important character.

#stopclickbait

 

I'm aware that Tarkin is canon, but no, he is not yet a Muun in canon (a quick look up at his page on Wookieepedia confirms this) and this information was not brought to light in that novel.

As far as I can tell, George Lucas had nothing to do with Plagueis being a Muun, so this "traditional view" that you consider is more than likely - as I mentioned before - due to his presence and appearance as a Muun in Legends.

But I digress, so back on topic: whilst I think Snoke will be a pivotal character in this trilogy of the Skywalker story, I do not at all believe that he can be considered the most important - yet - from a storytelling point of view.

 

I believe that Snoke is definitely Darth Plagueis!

 

George Lucas was the person who suggested that Plagueis would be a Muun and he was made so in the DP novel. However this novel was decanonised and so going forward DP could be any species LFL desire (again making it interesting the Most popular SW novel was swept into the decanonising process whilst Tarkin was left untouched - though the author was told upon writing Tarkin that he couldn't talk about the species of a certain character).

Why can Plagueis' former species be used as evidence whilst at the same time denied? Because the similarities of the pale, tall and spindly Muun's is very similar to Snoke and is yet another potential influence upon that character along with the other 1001 things mentioned in the DP thread.

If Snoke is new he isn't all that important. He's just another bad guy that has a superficial influence upon the greater story. If however Snoke is Plagueis then he is very important - he created Vader and he trained he Emperor. He would've been behind everything we have seen and would be a perfect reason for Ren's turn and Luke's despair (family created by the dark side!). He'd provide a reason why he witnessed everything without stepping in himself. And he'd be an uber bad guy without diminishing the Emperor.

 

I agree Snoke is Plagueis is the way to go and i think that was their intention , i just hope they didn't change their minds after fans were chatching up so fast.

 

Only because I love @master_shaitan and @TIDMADT I am forced to point out . . . .but Plagueis is dead.

 

Allegedly.

Let's face it - so was Maul.

 

Introducing a totally brand new "bad guy" wouldn't be as exciting as an old evil that had been lying dormant or in hiding for years, waiting to reemerge. The question obviously is: if not DP, who could he be? We obviously knew nothing of DP until the prequels, but having planted that seed all those years ago would make DP the most logical explanation. If Snoke is someone totally new, how would he be relevant? Or would he be yet some other villain we know but haven't thought of? Either way, in my opinion, he does need to tie into the overall story somehow because he's the main protagonist.

 

Just imagine how exciting it would be to hear "Snoke" say: I created Darth Vader or I trained the Emperor! He'd be the ultimate challenge for the heroes to face without diminishing the role of the Emperor. If he's some other ancient being, I can't see the relevance at all. I can't see a good way to shoe-horn him in. For me, this has to tie back into the Skywalker story. I know what people will say - "ah, but you think Rey is random!". That's true, but I think her origins will tie directly into the Skywalker story be it that she be a weapon of the Dark Side born to destroy the family or that she represents the Skywalker's impact upon the galaxy at large (the shadow of Vader looms over everyone - a curse started by Plagueis himself).

For me, Plagueis is the key to this. He's a sure fire way to bring everything together and keep the Skywalker story rounded and concise. He ties into Vader's legacy. He provides a great reason for Luke to be haunted. And it would explain why Ben Solo followed Snoke to the Dark Side and believed it was his destiny.