Will Episode IX have a new villain?

For Snoke lovers:

Perhaps he has a bunch of clones that he embodies remotely - and that the dark side impact is that the bodies age and decay?

So Snoke lives, somewhere - and this is simply the dark side version of Force projection?

It also struck me on my third viewing that Kylo Ren knew of the Force projection power. When he first sees Rey, he say that it can’t be her doing it as the effort would kill her. He of course doesn’t think it could be Snoke but it at least shows he knows that such power exists.

 

I only see plot holes.

1. If Kylo knew of Force projection, why didn't he sense that Luke at Crait was a projection?

2. If Snoke was controlling the connection between Rey and Kylo, he should've been able to sense where Rey was. He would have realized all by himself that Luke was on Ahch-To.

3. If Kylo was able to see Rey on Ahch-To, he could've told the First Order to send their troops there to kill Luke. Or he could have gone there by himself or with the knights of Ren (which would have been a way better story).

 

He knew force projections existed, that doesn't infer he could perceive Luke was using it - he even mentioned Rey would die if she were doing it herself, implying that Kylo probably never did / mastered it himself. Also, Luke is very powerful and Kylo is consumed by rage at that point. If Palpatine managed to hide he was a Sith from the Jedi Council for so long, Luke hiding the projection from Kylo isn't a plot hole at all.

Snoke only mentions he created the connection, not that he was controlling it. I agree it's still not super well explained, but there is no indication that he would know by extension where Rey would be. I agree this is the least explained Force-feat of the movie, but it doesn't imply what you are trying to.

The first time Kylo and Rey talk through the force he specifically says he couldn't see her surroundings. That was actually quite expository and clearly written on purpose to tell the audience he didn't know where she was.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 24, 2017 ---

Forget about Snoke guys, or you are bound to be disappointed again.

Main villain will obviously be Kylo, who was always the main villain - Snoke was a supporting character.
The KoR, if they appear, will be secondary like the Praetorian guards were.

The premise that if Rey defeated Kylo once then she should always win again is simply wrong. First because each fight will be different, and second because characters change over time. I agree JJ will have to do something to add tension to this fight, should it occur. But that shouldn't be too hard, especially if there's a time gap.

 

I think the tension will be the KoR. KoR along with Kylo will be a lot for her to handle if she is the only jedi left.

 

I don't think we need another villain. Kylo Ren is the villain, we have watched him evolve over two movies to show he is indeed a power hungry force to be reckoned with; and like all villains does not see himself as the bad guy.

I think the longer people create Snoke theories that he is still alive or body hopping the more they are setting themselves up to be unhappy for IX.

As much as I love theories and speculation, I think we need to have fun with it, not be so rigid and angry when things don't go like we planned.

 

Hux should be removed, so that the story can just focus on Rey and Kylo Ren

 

I sort of see Hux and Kylo as this trilogy's answer to Tarkin and Vader. I don't mind Hux, I think he can and does serve a valuable purpose for Kylo.

 

Just cast some famous actors for the Knights of Ren. Kylo will always be the ultimate villain. Hux will betray his new supreme leader though....

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 28, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 28, 2017 ---

Not "plotholes" again

1. Kylo doesn't know how to project himself like Luke does. Furthermore, Luke's Self is present at Crait. You only feel the Self through the force, not the physical or corporeal constitution of a person.

2. The connection takes place only between the Self of one person and that of another. He could see Rey, he knew it was a place with water, but there is no way you can establish an exact gps location of a person on the basis of that person's Self. He sensed Luke's presence, but cannot find the location of the Island. Rey doesn't give him that. However, when Rey is mindprobed by Snoke in the throne chamber it becomes clear that Rey isn't capable of resisting him. He tells Rey that he will destroy Luke on his island. Now he knows the location.

3. I don't think that would have been a better story because we would lose out on all the nuance and beautiful writing of the third act.

 

I certainly hope they don't bring in a new main villain. I think that dragged down the PT to a degree having a bad-guy-of-the-month.

Maybe a secondary villain? A 'Kylo's Hand' if you will, working in the background. That might be swell. A little nod to the EU and a setup for future (inevitable) films.

 

It would be quite odd to introduce a new villain in the last movie of a Trilogy, but unfortunately it's one of the few possibilities RJ has left for JJ. The very fact you're asking the question is evidence of what a lot of people are no doubt thinking.. ie, what is episode IX really going to be about. At the moment all there really is, is Rey vs Kylo, which is a damp squib at this point, as you could say after TLJ they were almost on friendly terms at times. Kylo, as great a character as he is, doesn't hold weight for me as the main big bad of the last movie. He's too vulnerable, too sympathetic a character, too likeable. So where are they going to go with it? I don't know, but it's not going to be easy to make it work. In a lot of ways TLJ derailed what would have been a decent arc had Snoke and Luke been kept alive into the next movie. I'm sure a lot of people thought it was a great departure from the norm to kill off a character like snoke, but you have to look at it in terms of what's good for the Trilogy overall and what's not, and I think that was a really short sighted and rash decision that will ultimately be detrimental to the tone and feel of the Trilogy.

 

And its already quite stocked with two villains who absolutely hate each other. We'll probably see the Knights of Ren, but I really don't like the villain arc to detract from Kylo Ren. You would waste something unique.

 

I posted this thought on another thread but I think I'll expand it a bit...

What makes sense given the current state of things in the galaxy? They already introduced the idea that there are very wealthy people making boatloads from war profiteering. I think we can expand on that all while giving some backstory to Snoke and even tease Plagueis fans a bit.

This idea also goes with the idea that Hux doesn't trust Kylo Ren. Hux knows that "the girl" didn't kill Snoke AND all the guards AND disable Kylo. Hux will watch the security hologram at some point and learn that Kylo is the one that murdered Snoke. He will consider him a traitor and seek help to get him out of power.

Kylo's unbalanced and reckless nature will begin to rear it's ugly head. The "money" behind the First Order will grow weary of him as their Supreme Leader and want him gone. They will contact Hux who they know is a die hard.

Imagine this scene...

Hux is contacted via hologram from a new character, a Muun. This Munn is the leader of a secret conglomerate representing the most wealthy and powerful people in the galaxy. He tells Hux that his organization is growing weary of supporting the First Order. Since Kylo's debacle on Crait, there are uprisings all across the galaxy which is causing them great concern. The Muun shares with Hux that Snoke was chosen to be their ideal Supreme Leader because of his mind control ability and his patience. The Muun states that he did not help resurrect the ashes of the Empire just to watch another Skywalker burn it to the ground. Kylo must be eliminated and Hux needs to begin preparations.

This would effectively put Kylo completely ALONE! He will not go quietly and the First Order will begin to tear itself apart. This will lead to opportunity for the new Rebellion to gain territory and more star systems rise up to take back their sovereignty.

This will also setup the potential for a new villain in a future trilogy AND gives Plagueis fans years to speculate on if the Muun is actually DP or not.

 

No need to introduce a new villain -- Kylo can fill this role perfectly. I think people are assuming that because Rey appears to be Kylo's equal (Snoke also suggests this -- "darkness rises, and light to meet it") that you need an even more powerful villain to raise the stakes. This is one way the story could go, but it's not a requirement.

Kylo can do plenty of damage and create a lot of risk for the galaxy and our protagonists, whether or not there is a huge power gap between him and Rey. He may not be a truly evil character (he's "conflicted", as both Rey and Snoke note), but his tumultuous instability and bottomless desire to fill the daddy-shaped abyss inside him are really, really dangerous. He wants to rule the galaxy because he feels it will make him whole again, but he will never be whole, and so his pursuit of power will never be sated; he will just become more despondent, unstable and destructive. This is a very dangerous villain.

In Ep IX, I'd like to see him seek out ancient sith knowledge/power, maybe thru excursions to Mustafar and Moraband. Let's see him attempt to become one of the most powerful dark side users and subsume all other legacies. Not saying he can attain these heights, but he could do a lot of damage in the attempt.

I also think the emotional and psychic connection he shares with Rey heightens the risk -- what if Rey holds back because she thinks he can still be turned back to the light? What if her feelings for him betray her and make us question whether she can defeat him?

 

I don't need another villain. We have now the Supreme Leader Kylo Ren and Hux by his side. Also they can bring Phasma back.

 

I wonder ... will Rey die if Kylo dies in IX? You know, it's all about balance and so on ...

 

It pretty much has to be the Knights of Ren, doesn't it? From a practical standpoint, after teasing such a cool looking group of villains, they would be stupid not to bring them back. Why leave them as a dangling plot thread?

From a story standpoint, it makes perfect sense for Kylo (who has been established as the MASTER of the KoR) to assign them leadership positions to help him maintain control over the First Order, since not everyone is likely to be as loyal to Kylo as they were to Snoke. It's been pretty strongly suggested that the KoR were also former students of Luke's, so it would be logical to match each of them to a military unit, much like the Jedi in the Clone Wars.

 

I thought I read somewhere that many of the Knights of Ren became Snoke's personal Praetorian Guards. If that is true then Kylo and Rey already dispatched the ones that were loyal to Snoke. They already did the Kylo kills the master to save Rey thing. So what else is there? He would either have to be an irredeemable baddie that Rey dispatches at the end or a conflicted anti-villain that sees the errors of his ways and turns back to the light. But how? He would either have to sacrifice himself or kill another villain to be redeemable. I find myself utterly confused as to how JJ will close this one out.

 

Snoke is NOT dead!
They (directors) just want people to believe that he is.

They succeeded big time in fooling so many people,

Bravo!...they did well.

 

Other potential twists for IX (re: New Villain):

- A new external (extra-galactic) or unknown menace brings new danger to the galaxy, and the fractured First Order and Resistance decide to work together to defend against and counter that antagonist.

- Or: Rey agrees to be with Kylo, believing she can change him. That fails, and it is she who begins to change, slipping a bit to the Dark Side before she pulls her self back from the abyss and recognizes she and Kylo must save themselves respectively.

- Or: Kylo's use of the Dark Side has become uncontrollable, and the results are unpredictable and disastrous, beyond his ability to reign it back in. Rey rushes to his side and finds herself unable to make much of a difference. The all the Force Ghosts appear and lend their powers to help repel the Dark Side maelstrom and to bring peace to/stabilize the Force.

Or, how about this one...

Snoke returns (even though Rian, in at least one recent interview, seemed to imply Snoke is gone, removed so Kylo could step up) and is seemingly invincible, requiring Ben and Rey to work together. Perhaps Snoke uses some ancient Sith transference technique and takes over Hux. Imagine Kylo's surprise when he tries to knock down Hux, and Hux unleashes some lightning, speaking in Snoke's voice. Kylo then needs Rey to help him discover how to prevent Snoke from transferring again. Kylo agrees to be the next "host" for Snoke but then asks Rey to strike him down at a key moment. Rey refuses at first, believing she will only wind up being the next host for Snoke. They realize they have to travel to a remote location, so no one else could be overtaken by Snoke, then lure Snoke (Hux) there, and then, at the right moment, strike each other down simultaneously in order to prevent Snoke from transferring. Just as this is about to happen, Luke Skywalker steps in between their lightsaber blades (returning in corporeal form) and blocking the blades with his hands. Luke allows Snoke to take hold of him (a la Neo does with Agent Smith from Matrix Revolutions). For a moment, Snoke believes he is victorious, claiming what he always wanted: a Skywalker host. Then Ben and Rey reluctantly strike Luke down at Luke's command. Snoke lets out a brief painful "No!" cannot transfer from Luke because he took hold of a Luke Force projection. Luke survives this and appears before Ben and Rey. Ben completely renounces the Dark Side, asks for forgiveness, vows to stay by Rey's side to defend the Light Side of the Force, and the balance of the Force is restored.​

 

As long as it is not Vong! I had to endure over five years of Vong, I don't think I can stand them any longer.