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"You still want to kill me...." What does Kylo Ren mean?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by FN-3263827, Jan 23, 2016.

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  1. MagnarTheGreat

    MagnarTheGreat Jedi General

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    Rey shot first. She was trying to take him out like Greedo.

     
    #241 MagnarTheGreat, Apr 8, 2016
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  2. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    that's an interesting read ~ the snowtroopers say the falcon is empty and so he doesn't know where his father is. maybe he's taking a moment to verify that he's somewhere on Starkiller at all as opposed to already captured/dead/whatever.

    but yeah, not that it makes it any better for him.

    hahaha ~ depends on the brother! but i agree; this isn't very sibling-cousin-like behavior.
    and not when you couple it with the hair of destiny [snort].

    part of what also might ease Rey's aversion (regardless of relation) is if they do have that bond ~ then there's someone in the universe intimately connected to her as well. and maybe that's weird at first, but she's got trials ahead in her training/coping with her powers and here's someone who knows exactly what it's like, who is a peer (as opposed to a mentor).

    such a fangirl. hahaha
    after staring at him for three months, i admit he's grown on me.
    although it still might just be the snow ~ ha!

    there has been some discussion about Finn killing in the Finn threads (i find it troubling myself and did from first viewing), but you're right. i think if people perceive "sides" they make allowances. it's easy to say well, Kylo Ren started it because he killed Lor San Tekka and tortured Poe, but those are just the things that define him as the villain. The FO has launched what they believe is a righteous war and these are the participants and they are all killing.

    if you want to get really gross about it, Han Solo infiltrated Starkiller, killed countless soldiers, and set charges to destroy the base and take thousands of lives. while that's not the reason Ren killed him on the bridge, he certainly would have been justified doing so from a combat perspective. Han is practically a terrorist.
    not that the FO is any better, of course.

    i'm going to challenge Rey on this. maybe she thinks she knows Kylo Ren is with the Fo (she's making an assumption, frankly). but she's also seen this dude in her vision and she knows exactly two things about him: he's terrifying, but he also saved her life. so really, she could have made any number of decisions here yet she was scared and panicked and chose to shoot first.

    none of which would have changed the outcome of that meeting ~ hahaha.

    yep. yep. yep.

    no matter how many times the powers that be and Adam Driver and Abrams and whoever else says that these people don't think they are evil, people are going to perceive them as such. i am really really hoping that Johnson comes up with an uncomplicated but complex script that really illustrates how nobody on two sides of a conlict are necessarily all right or all wrong. i'd really like the FO to not be a buncha Nazis.

    dang straight. that girl is a loose cannon! hahaha
     
    #242 FN-3263827, Apr 8, 2016
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  3. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    @Obi-Wan Solo, thanks so much for posting this. I love that we can have these kinds of discussions rather than just "X character sucked!" that sometimes forums can devolve into. (Not this one, of course! ;) )

    It seems to me that we're talking about is whether there's such a thing as a "just war," and whether "the end justifies the means." These are excellent moral questions we all need to consider, living in this imperfect world as we do. I love love love how Star Wars can help us work through them--that is what good fiction does for us if we engage with it.

    To be right up front, I don't entirely agree with you, and I think violence can stop violence if used "properly"...just never permanently, alas. And how we use our violence has to be as carefully regulated and as "moral" and "just" as possible. I know that is kind of laughable, to think that we can objectively regulate ourselves this way, but we do it all the time as societies with police, armed guards, armies, etc. And not always with great success, but we try, because there really seems to be no other practical way to accomplish it. (I resisted typing "order" there instead of "it," just to spite Hux. :p)

    But what blurs the lines with Star Wars is that this is a war (in the "stars")--the "only fight, against the Dark Side"...but who the combatants are is tricky. Civilians and soldiers may be the same thing. And of course, whether a character sees "morality" and "justice" on his own side is unfortunately sometimes a matter of "a certain point of view"...hence Kylo's puzzlement as to why Rey would want to kill him, I suppose!

    Sorry, that was a bit of a treatise! But these are indeed really good things to think about.
     
    #243 Choose Light, Apr 8, 2016
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  4. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    On a less serious note...

    Yes, I sounded very negative, didn't I? Sorry. I mean Kylo's attraction to Rey is creepy now. With the Force bond, I hope that will change--he will have hope to change, and she will find compassion/understanding, and they will find common ground and learn to work together at the very least.

    Creepy messed-up dude aside, how could anyone resist the Raven Locks?? (you have such lovely names for Kylo's hair, @FN-3263827 :D)

    it's the hair people 2.png

    I just had a terrible, awful, dreadful thought. What if...what if...instead of losing a Skywalker limb, Kylo loses...

    The Hair of Destiny! :eek:

    I can't even...

    Noooo.jpg
     
    #244 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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    The Hair of Destiny, hahahahahaha...

    Thanks for bumping this thread, FN, I hadn't seen it before.

    I noticed that "bridal carry" too (didn't realize the trope was formally named), it struck me as kind of a King Kong & Fay Wray beat.
     
    #245 Automatic, Apr 9, 2016
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    With Kylo in his all-black costume, it definitely had a monster movie vibe to it!
     
    #246 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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  7. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    no, not at all ~ sorry if that's what it seemed like i was implying. he is totally creepy in that moment she wakes up and he's just crouched there, watching. i mean, who does that??? hahaha

    and talk about your beast at the feet of the beauty imagery. he has already put himself beneath her in a weird way. he did crouch down to Poe's level on Jakku (which i always thought was weird/interesting), but otherwise he doesn't bend to anybody, certainly (not even to grandpa Vader!).

    the hair is so cracky hilarious.

    if he lost it, the fans would flip ~ hahaha
    better an arm than the Cosmic Coiffure!
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 9, 2016 ---
    glad you enjoy it!
    we had some good discussion in here about beauty & the beast analogs and whatnot.
    it got a little meta-crazy, but it's been fun.
    feel free to add your two cents (or more!)
     
    #247 FN-3263827, Apr 9, 2016
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  8. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    No, you didn't seem like that--no worries. I was critiquing myself. ;)

    Hahaha! I would definitely be one who would flip if the Cosmic Coiffure gets cut! :p
     
    #248 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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    Well, it has that 'beast who fixates on the damsel' vibe. Others have said this, but Kylo didn't need to carry her himself. [EDIT:] He didn't need to knock her out either... did he?
     
    #249 Automatic, Apr 9, 2016
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  10. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    hilariously, he lets her drop in the book. or maybe not so hilariously ~ hahaha

    Screen Shot 2016-04-09 at 1.23.38 PM.png

    but i think it shows, again, how deliberately they considered the scene. if he dropped her to the ground, that would have reflected poorly on him.
    he knocks her out for expediency's sake; the Resistance has arrived and he just wants to leave (for all we know, he's also trying to avoid running into his father).

    and yeah, he could have just handed her over to the stormtroopers, but instead he carries her all the way back to the shuttle (which he actually also does in the book).

    it's maybe also worth noting that it's so explicit that he has no business giving commands, but he's totally running with this.
     
    #250 FN-3263827, Apr 9, 2016
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    No, he didn't. IMO to the Poe situation is set up as a deliberate contrast.

    As I see it, Kylo's carry choices were (1) keep her Force-frozen and carry her himself...but this would make her like carrying a board; (2) assign some Stormtroopers to carry the "board"; (3) have her beat up a bit, shackled, and hustled on board by Stormtroopers (the Poe method); or (4) Force-knock her out so he can carry her limp form himself...

    Well, what would most males choose in this situation? :p (Kylo says, "We have what we need" and chooses the bridal carry rather than slinging her over his shoulder or dragging her by her hair or something similar... As @FN-3263827 once observed, the royal "we" isn't fooling anyone!)

    EDIT: Aw, man, @FN-3263827 beat me to the reply! ;)
     
    #251 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    hahaha ~ sorry about that!

    i would also note that both in the book and in the movie the scene is definitely played as is something private is going on that maybe shouldn't be going on. in the film especially, the way he steps around her to put himself between her and the stormtroopers is curiously "guilty" and defensive.
     
    #252 FN-3263827, Apr 9, 2016
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  13. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Yeah, I joked about the Sniff Test, but what the heck is going on here? (besides more creepy vibe)

    the sniff test.gif

    (Also, I haven't read the novel, but the more I read about it, the less I think I'd like it. I prefer Movie!Kylo.)
     
    #253 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    oh don't discount the book! the book and the movie complement each other very well.
    they did some nice softening of his character in the film, but he's actually much more sympathetic in the book in some ways.
    and there are moments that speak volumes to his compassion for others. he works a lot harder to put Rey at ease in the interrogation, for example, and he's kinda nice even to his underlings.
    and he's not nearly as unhinged, i feel.
    he's also much more grossly controlled by Snoke (in my opinion).
    probably letting Rey drop in the book is the worst thing he does ~ hahaha.
     
    #254 FN-3263827, Apr 9, 2016
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    Yeah, the fact remains, the 'knock her out and carry her' approach was technically unnecessary (see: Poe) - AND he could have handed her off at any time, but he chose to carry her all the way into the ship. [EDIT: Oh sorry, FN already said this.] Again, the 'beast taking the damsel back to his lair' imagery.
    Yes! He gets personal with her right from the get-go, which I'm sure is frowned upon. In the interrogation scene: "So lonely. So afraid to leave. At night, desperate to sleep..." etc. Why get personal? He doesn't need that angle to intimidate her, there are other ways. But he wants to connect with her on that level. He's curious about her.
    What is that? I don't recognize it from the movie...?
     
    #255 Automatic, Apr 9, 2016
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    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Yes--it's like from the moment she came into his orbit, he's completely distracted from what he's supposed to be doing. In the interrogation, he wanders into her personal feelings and apparently has little desire to leave. I'm sure it's at least partially because he can very much identify with those feelings.


    It's there--it goes by very quick. It's at 1:18:21 into the movie. Don't miss it! ;)
    --- Double Post Merged, Apr 9, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 9, 2016 ---
    He seems annoyingly chatty in the book. :D
     
    #256 Choose Light, Apr 9, 2016
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    Absolutely. Those are, arguably, the exact same things he's dealing with.
     
    #257 Automatic, Apr 9, 2016
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    totally! he right away gravitates towards what resonates with him emotionally.

    hahaha ~ he definitely is more chatty in the book!

    i like that they reigned him back in the movie, but i do feel like they cut a bit deep.
    but some of the compromises, like him catching her as she falls and him saying "i feel it too" in the interrogation, are good trade-offs.
    it's nice to have though, as just extra stuff to think about.
     
    #258 FN-3263827, Apr 9, 2016
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  19. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Annoying? Ha. Not at all! :p
    I also think they cut too deep...I like how the movie and the book complement each other, but since it is the movie which most people will see, the cut was too deep and some things (which we know they have filmed Like his conversations with Snoke, etc. ) should have been left in...
    In the book Kylo is definitely at that point in Takodana touching Rey's cheek and the fact that he is so close, and actually so intimate (and the way he removes his hand has gentleness in it) and the way he suddenly steps away and then steps in front to hide her from the view of the trooper is I think indeed interesting...It's as if he is being caught to be doing something private and wants to conceal it...(which is exactly what he is doing)...
    If we didn't know the situation on the gif it looks as if he is kissing her or whispering to her...It almost looks like a very intimate moment...(For some reason I don't find it creepy...)

    [​IMG]
     
    #259 Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 9, 2016
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  20. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i'm really on the fence about the Snoke stuff. on the one hand, i think it absolutely belongs in the story and it's important.
    on the other hand, it just disgusts me to the point that i'm glad we didn't have to actually see it ~ hahaha.
    i feel from the start they made a lot of choices to keep restraining themselves from any skin-crawling subtext between Ren and Snoke, but it leaks all over the place anyway.

    i don't find this particularly creepy either, but i can see how it could be construed that way.
    he is terrifying coming after her when she's shooting at him.
     
    #260 FN-3263827, Apr 10, 2016
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