"You still want to kill me...." What does Kylo Ren mean?

So mAYBE they could end up together and Kylo's true destiny is the "dark prince" of the galaxy and it is his ultimate destiny to sacrifice himself just as he finds true love within Rey and his life is changing...

 

Great thoughts from the OT, but I am kinda tired of this. I am kinda tired of playing JJ's stupid game of "I wonder what that meant?" where we dissect minutia, solely because JJ is too lazy to tell a real story. It's like we're LOOKING for depth and meaning when there isn't any.

This was a fast past, fun, never sit still action movie that never explained anything and indeed considered any backstory, character development and depth as merely "getting in the way" of whisking the audience along to the next confrontation.

It's been JJ's style since LOST. This "less is more" and "don't give the audience any real answers" type of story telling. I'm sick of it. I am so very, very glad JJ is not directing the next one and if JJ doesn't reboot another franchise again, I think we'll all be better off. Every one of his reboot films felt like a shallow, empty "greatest hits" record that just quickly and crudely copied moments that worked for the franchise's earlier installments.

I know that's an unwanted rant to a simple question. I guess he means that he can sense her antipathy. I think it reveals precisely NOTHING because JJ insisted that NOTHING really get revealed. I mean why does he stab his Dad? Why? What Maclunkey purpose did it serve Kylo to stab an old man at that point? There was no purpose, you have to GUESS at the purpose, JJ believes GUESSING the motive makes it a stronger story. I think it's just lazy story writing.

I realize how strongly many of you disagree with all that. But nothing anyone says in that film is particularly useful, it was written to launch a franchise with NO ANSWER and 100 questions. It wasn't a story, it was more like that free hit of heroine a dealer offers to get you hooked. Great franchise management, lousy way to tell a story.

 

I think there's been a lot of projecting by fans from this scene, hence a notable ReyLo shipper contingency out there. And, hey, I get it. Beauty & the Beast is my favorite fairy tale. The idea of someone changing for the better because of love is a massive romantic trope. But as of now, I don't see a romantic thing going on between these two. A force connection, yes. But this isn't a "meet cute" scene. If eventually it does become some sort of romance, I see it from Ren's side because he perhaps see her as someone who can truly understand him in a way that his parents could not. But for Rey, it would be a huge leap from where she is now.

Rape isn't about sex. So mind rape, to me, is no different than physical rape. Rey was violated whether she fought him off or not.

 

He literally kills himself but comes back all glory and sparkly as Ben Solo while Reg is crying over him .

 

The alternative to having stories spoon-fed to you -- is to have the storyteller inspire you to actually think!

Don't demand storytellers imagine for you --- Use your imagination!

 

I do agree BUT I don't think SO MUCH should have been left up in the air...I am all for using our own imaginations but that's also what leads to further disappointments down the line when everything becomes "official" and it's nothing like we would have evr imagined.

 

I think that there's more depth here that some give it credit for. There's quite a lot of symbolism/thematic callbacks, etc. And not answering questions in the first film is kind of a SW tradition. If anything, what's changed is fans unwillingness to be patient and see where things go before judging.

As for Beauty and the Beast (my favorite Disney animated film btw), the difference here is that the Beast was kind of a jerk. But he wasn't a mass-murderer and he didn't do all of the despicable things to Belle that Kylo does to Rey and her friends. So it's easier to buy Belle eventually reciprocating Beast's feelings once he mellows out. Whereas here, it might work as a one-sided obsession on his part, but no more than that.

 

Fair enough, I don't entirely agree but your concerns make sense and are certainly valid. I share some of the frustration of lack of story/substance/fill/answers. As someone who's in this for the films, art, and discussion and not the merchandise it's pretty convenient for me to have plenty to speculate between films!

JJ has taken similar approaches before and it may be lazy storytelling although he doesn't strike me as a particularly lazy guy. I don't know him though - maybe he makes his wife, 1st AD and DP do all the work!

My speculation is influenced by my artist friends who seem often hesitant to explain too much - I'm assuming it can detract from the viewer/listeners personal investment/experience which is often stronger than any particular detail the artist might communicate.

Is this lazy? Perhaps. Safe? Probably. I can't really blame him though - I would probably be pulling him to pieces if he f@rked too much with my beloved franchise. Maybe through a safe opening act he's generously paved the way for Rian to take further filmmaking/storytelling risk.

 

Well uh Ben did threaten his own dad and that wasn't nice ...

 

About that. I stumbled upon this article and I think it totally got it right

"Rey might end up with Finn, or she may end up alone, but I highly doubt she’ll end up with Kylo in the way people are hoping, because to be honest the symbolism behind her character is very, very fragile, and you could very easily Blast it up. Rey means a lot of things to a lot of people, and while you COULD pull off a romantic relationship between Kylo and her, I don’t think Disney will try. Right now the scenes between Rey and Kylo have sexual undertones, and those undertones are fairly non-abusive because Rey has agency. She wins every time they have a showdown. This offsets Kylo’s possessive, sexually aggressive attitude towards her. But if Rey gives in, if she falls for him and this possessive attitude isn’t corrected – if she loses – then everything in the subtext between them becomes kinda problematic.

And Rey is a hero. Rey is a hero to many, many little girls – the ones that are dressing up as Rey herself – and you can’t take that away from them. You really can’t. You shouldn’t be cruel. You can’t tell all those little girls who want to be a hero too that they can only be a hero if they have a boy they like, or if a boy likes them. You can’t tell those little girls dreaming of becoming Jedi or Sith or Storm Troopers that they can only be the center of their own story if it centers around a man, and what a man needs. Especially if this man is a possessive man, like Kylo is, who wants to keep you locked away, taking instructions from him. That’s literally what Kylo propositioned Rey with during the Final Fight, with the “you need a teacher” moment. I’m serious.

This sort of message is incredibly damaging to little girls (who will see this movie in droves, by the way). I should know because I was a little girl too once, who loved Star Wars, and I wanted to be a Sith Lord really badly. I wanted to be a Sith, but because I was a little girl and this was the 90s I was told no, you can’t do that. You can only be the princess, and only then if find a prince to kiss. It blasted me up. This sort of narrative will Blast up others too, if they’re too young to properly deconstruct the subtext. If they’re not old enough to see the nuance behind it.

So right now the only way I can see the Episode VIII team team making this dynamic work between Kylo/Rey is to have Rey being stronger than Kylo, consistently, or having them always poised as equals. They could possibly pull it off by having them on opposite ends of the Force spectrum – separated by different ideologies and driven to grief by being parted from one another. That would translate obsessive fixation into legitimate longing, which is An Okay Thing To Like (and show to the kids). But I digress.

Let me also clarify that even if Reylo is one-sided, this doesn’t mean Rey won’t feel anything for Kylo. As I pointed out before – and as it has been mentioned by others – this is a Death and the Maiden motif; the seduction of the innocent through erotic passion, and I’m pretty sure Rey will be tempted by Kylo, either sexually or spiritually (through the Force). Maybe she’ll be tempted by both. I’m not sure how far this temptation will go or where it will lead, but I do think it will be part of the movie. And just because I don’t see any way for Reylo to be together in their current context doesn’t mean that the screenwriters won’t do it. They might surprise me and pull it off, and they’ve certainly left themselves room to play with it. They wouldn’t have spent so much time and effort setting up these scenes, otherwise"

http://ohtze.tumblr.com

 

Hm, I've read that "article" before. And there are some major issues with it.

I disagree with many points made. First of all Rey is not very fragile. On the contrary, she is shown as anything but fragile. In fact there are people who complained that she is too strong (and a Mary Sue, etc.)...
(As an aside. She is not going to "end up with Finn". It is not set up to be, it will not happen. )

To make her end up alone? Hm, what kind of message that is? An independent strong woman has to be alone? Not a very good message imo.

Kylo is not possessive. He had a goal - to discover the map leading to Luke. She had seen the map, he acted according to his plans. It would not have mattered to him if it was someone else (in that instance) who could help him achieve his goal. At the same time, he senses something special and different in her. That in itself is not bad as he treats her with respect and tries his best to not cause her pain or injury. That is why we have been given an almost mirroring scene with Poe earlier. To clearly offset the difference in attitude and treatment. He takes her in his arms and carries her. He was going to abduct her anyway, but he chose to do it as harmlessly to her as possible (the bridal carry). Kylo's interest has sexual/romantic undertones, yes, but to call that aggressive is really a huge exaggeration and it is not what was shown onscreen.

As to his offer to be a teacher indicating possessiveness? Wait what?! Someone offers to teach you in something that he knows is dangerous to experience without proper guidance and that is possessive? Oh my. I don't know what kind of study/academic experiences the author has had with her teachers, but that is simply absurd. "Especially if this man is a possessive man, like Kylo is, who wants to keep you locked away, taking instructions from him"? Where was that implied - that he offers to teach her while keeping her locked away??? That's totally the author's own extrapolations and assumptions (imagination) which were NOT based on the film. In the fight we have seen Kylo trying his best not to harm or injure her and instead of overpowering her as he could have easily done he offers her an alternative to killing each other and that is possessive? Wow. Someone has had bad experiences at school or misunderstands the dynamic of teachers and students completely is all I'm going to say...

No, Rey should not be stronger than Kylo. That is just stupid. They should be equals and that was already began to be set up. And Kylo has shown that he doesn't mind it if they were equals. Not once was he shown to be angry, frustrated or upset that she read his mind (he was just stunned and surprised, but not hostile or angry), when she took his grandfather's sabre under his nose (surprise and even admiration contrasted to his rage at Finn just moments earlier when Finn was holding that same sabre), nor during the fight (where he is super calm and sort of vulnerable looking under the circumstances), nor even after she defeats him and he looks at her with slashed face. They are equals already and he doesn't seem to mind that at all.

We have seen Kylo's rage, anger and aggression to other people. His attitude to Rey in all their interactions (with very minor slips) has been so far away from what we have seen him capable of and basically is as far at the opposite spectrum as possible based on what we have seen about him in this movie.

As to the "message to little girls". So, the message should be women should be strong and stay by themselves or they should be strong and dominate the man in a relationship?! Hm, no. That's not the correct message for little or not so little girls. I'm sorry but that sounds like a very common misunderstanding of what feminism is (which I suspect the author wants to project)...Feminism is women to be seen as equals to men and respected and accepted as equals and for men and women to be mutually supportive and complementing each other. It does not mean hating men, nor does it mean that women should dominate men, because that would be just as stupid, unfair and warped and just the reverse of the patriarchal model where men dominate women.

The biggest thing is, we still don't know the story of Kylo's turn and how and why he joined the FO. Actually so far what we know is that he has been haunted from childhood and his parents and uncle were not able to help him and he was literally himself abducted victim. I would be very careful to make assumptions without knowing the whole story of why he is like that in the first place.

As for him and Rey. He seems to already know who Rey is. That implies that they have a prior history already. That is probably going to be the big reveal that will flip things substantially together with the reveal of what actually happened with Ben Solo to turn him into Kylo Ren.

Kylo's character is obviously deliberately set up as a very complex character that challenges preconceived notions of what a villain is or should be. This is quite intentional. And it is intentional for a reason. That will be made clear in ep. 8 (hopefully) or even as late as ep. 9.

If Rey and Kylo are not siblings or cousins, at the end of ep. 9 they will end up together. It is that simple. That's how fairytale narrative works.

And also, in this case "Prince Charming" is not just some guy on a white horse who falls in love with the heroine because she is pretty, but admires and respects and loves her because they are equals who work together, understand each other and respect and complement each other. I would call that message a very good one for little (and not so little) boys and girls.

 

But SW is supposed to be a soap opera, not a fairy tale...oh wait Disney bought them .

 

I think it would be funny if she is crushing on him and he senses it but then she rejects him which causes him to go deeper into the Dark aside sort of like with Anakin Skywalker losing Padmé .

 

I totally agree with you. What truly makes this pairing exciting is Kylo does something for Rey that Finn or Poe can never do. Kylo challenges Rey.