THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

How about disliked or disapproved or loathed.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 18, 2018 ---

I can understand your frustration with the fact that it seems to be the same thing for months on end. I didn’t start communicating on this thread until October 9, 2018. I joined the cantina in June of this year. I was late to the party but have been utilizing this thread to talk with like minded people as well as people with a differing opinions . It may sound or look the same, but sometimes people may change the way they worded their responses to better explain their opinions.

I’m glad that it sounds like this site will continue to let threads like this exist for future movies. I hope that I won’t dislike any future movies. But Star Wars is special to many people. Places like this is a great tool for Disney to use in trying to learn from the fans. I the end, they need places like this to properly investigate what the customers are thinking. Disney obviously purchased LFL to make money. Is there a better way to know exactly what you consumers are thinking than a place like this?

 

In regards to the current topic of discussion, I guess I wouldn't spend 99% of my forum posts on this thread if there was something of intrigue going on in the Star Wars franchise. Something that helped me cope with how much I HATED TFA was the fact that Rebels was still going on, and I could watch that and ignore the films entirely. I could easily say the same about just about every mediocre piece of Star Wars media being pumped out in the last 5 years: the abhorrently uncreative one-shot novels, the sleep-inducing comics, the atrocious video games....I could ignore the absolute media nightmare of the Star Wars brand so long as there was one thing that could keep me invested and excited, and that was Rebels.

And now that Rebels is over, there's nothing left. The comics still suck, the novels still eat, the games still blow, and the state of the movies has gotten WORSE since TFA. Now, I don't have any acceptable Star Wars media to use as refuge until things get better. And having news outlets and the TLJ-defense force spending every waking moment telling dissenters that they're wrong for disliking a film doesn't help things either.

And I know someone is going to feverishly point to the new Disney Streaming service and the Star Wars content that will provide, but I honestly don't have a lot of optimism reserved for any of it. Sure, it'll be nice to have the 13 episodes of TCW released after being held hostage in concept stage for nearly five years, but that's not really new material being made....it's old material being finished, and not an entirely large amount of it at that. The Mandalorian does absolutely nothing to excite me, since my faith in any new Star Wars product has been shaken given the dismal quality of the latest offerings (an impressive feat, considering there was once a time where if you'd told my younger self that we were getting a show about Mandalorians, you'd have to try really hard to dampen my excitement).

And this is all with the long-running problems with the current canon still prevailing: the absence of ambitious or creative story arcs in the novels/comics, the absolute PREVALENCE of the OT setting/aesthetic rearing its stale and overused head in every piece of media including the upcoming Streaming Shows, and the likelihood that in Weiss/Beinhoff's movies and Rian's trilogy, we're likely to see more of what's come before despite all promises of them being original. A fear which I'm absolutely in the right to have, because it's a precedent they've cemented with every product and story they've released recently.

For me, this thread and places like it are the only substantial interaction to get out of Star Wars these days. Everything in the current franchise landscape itself is more dull than dishwater, and the solution many fans have is to just continue to be excited for upcoming things that have no promise of being good...a remedy that's been flung at me for the last seven years following the Disney purchase. And outside of Rebels, that recommendation to "stay excited and anticipate good things" hasn't paid off for a single thing.

And I don't believe that's about to change with the upcoming batch of media on offer, either.

 

Don’t we have the technology to just change the name of this thread?

 

I think RJ slipped in one of his tweets, and confirmed that Disney does indeed have a team that monitors the internet, but if a film makes over a billion dollars will they really be concerned with a few vocal fans that HATE TLJ? I think Iger was solely concerned with how bad Solo performed...

I will be appalled if RJ's trilogy is cancelled, but you never know...

 

Sure tlj made a billion dollars, but I think solos poor box office was partially due to the backlash of the fans upset about tlj. That’s my opinion. The only way fans can truly show displeasure is by not spending their money if they aren’t happy. So I’m pretty sure Disney started to investigate the dislike of tlj after solo.

The fact that I heard fans were boycotting a Star Wars movie surprised me. But it made sense when I learned how many people felt the way I did about tlj. I realized I wasn’t alone in my thinking.

Personally I won’t spend money on episode 9. I will watch it eventually, when it doesn’t cost me anything. I will most likely start going back to the theaters and spending money on the next series. If the next series ends up disappointing me, then I will give up on Star Wars altogether. I don’t want to give up yet. I want to give them a chance.

I personally won’t be appalled if RJs trilogy is cancelled. I will be fine with him directing them. I would prefer him not to write the stories.

 

Unfortunately, I think you're right. Solo's Blu-ray sales are pretty good though, allot of people might skip episode 9 or see it at home if the backlash spirals or persist. I didn't believe that Star Wars fans could ever skip a Star Wars film but Solo is a perfect example. I'm hoping JJ salvages this trilogy with some major surprises. I don't know how he can accomplish this but I'm rooting for him...

 

I think there is a difference between listening to the fans and getting a pulse of the fans. There is an old saying in sports about GM's, "If you listen to the fans, then you'll be eventually sitting with them."

For example, George Lucas obviously got a pulse of the fans in 1999 and scaled back Jar Jar Binks for AOTC and ROTS. Even though TPM was the highest grossing movie of 1999, beating out The Matrix. Getting a pulse of the fans helps in the long-run because it shows you are not getting out of touch. Obviously Disney got a pulse of the fans regarding TLJ Luke, as I expect he will have a much different role then originally written for Episode 9.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 19, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 19, 2018 ---

Solo boxoffice was a game changer for me too as I never thought SW fans would not show up to a SW movie. That should scare the h*** out of Disney, because they were pretty much loyal to anything before.

 

So, I keep getting referenced (i.e. the OP). If you go to the first page you'll see my post isn't the first because the thread got merged with another and my first post now shows up on the 3rd page. It is true that I thought (and said on several occasions in this thread) that having the thread would centralize negative commentary so it didn't flood the board as I am almost certain it would given the intensity of the dislike. I didn't think for a second it would take off as it has largely because I thought the debate between opposing views would occur in threads along specific topics (i.e. debate about the first battle, debate about Hyper drive, debate about saving what we love, debate about the throne room battle, debate about Force Skype)

But it seems like every few months or so, a group of posters will resurrect the same phalanx of unpersuasive arguments in a failed bid to discredit this thread and it's criticisms.; not because these criticisms don't have merit, but because they feel compelled to silence dissent.

If we're being transparent and honest, that's the root of this dispute. These attempts (taken at face value) are often billed as debate, but upon inspection most appear to be attempts to police tone, emotion, activity and ultimately thought. People who didn't like the movie shouldn't have to adjust their tone, their feelings, the frequency with which they post, or their ideas on the movie to suit people who liked the movie. I throw up in my mouth a little bit every time I feel forced to say this. Why do people who generally like the film feel they have the authority to tell those who didn't like the film how they should express themselves?

To drive this further home, imagine if you would, people who don't like TLJ, going to the Loved TLJ thread and suggesting:

• That it's existence was disruptive to the ability to enjoy the site by those that didn't like TLJ
• That the thread title needed to be changed because it was off putting to those of us who didn't like it
• That the thread was ruining membership and interaction
• That it was unnecessary to repeat points about TLJ that you love past a certain number of repetitions that I deem appropriate
• That people who loved the movie just didn't "get it"
• That people explain why they are posting in the thread

Would it not be clear how ridiculous these assertions are if they were done in reverse?

If this thread was ultimately a bad idea, so be it. The credible arguments against it haven't been articulated here; but that doesn't mean they can't/don't exist. It's possible that the EPIX is better off without a thread like this. I personally won't take offense if a thread such as this is banned. I will however, be relentless in pointing out how threads like this are a red herring for the actual issue. Silencing dissent. If EPIX bombs and no centralizing thread is allowed, the negative comments will simply disperse among many threads and you'll no longer have the luxury of attacking one thread in an attempt to silence that dissent.

 

I'm guessing the idea is that "hate", or any word linked to it, is a trigger word for some. It holds negative connotations which offends those who love. Personally, I found "love" in regards to TLJ a little irritating, I rolled my eyes when I saw that thread opened and when I saw it at the top of the threads. So I guess sometimes the reverse could be true too. That being said, I never felt a need to go in and "correct" anyone. I did go in to check out if the atmosphere was similar to that of the "hate" thread, as in arguments among both haters and lovers. But that was about the extent of it. As uninspiring and lame I found TLJ, I was happy for the people that enjoyed it.

As @TrumanJ said, a lot of the time discussions get started up again due to people arriving to the party at different times. In a way, maybe that's the issue? The thread not being specific enough, that someone like @TrumanJ comes to a general thread that remains near the top of the list instead of looking for specific issue? Usually specific issues have much shorter lives, run about 10 pages or so and the horse dies. Then that thread slides down to oblivion occasionally being resurrected by someone new who has a different take. While hate and love threads keep coming back because they are all encompassing and magnets due to their popularity. If you're new to the forums, people will gravitate to those threads just for being more prominent and for being as large as they are.

Ultimately, my take is that there may be something similar to this. The difference is that it will not have the words "hate" or "love" in them. I don't think anyone will intentionally try and circumvent the rule, but language is a tricky thing and very hard to police. I think the moderators will have their work cut out for them, I don't envy their position.

I think there's also a perception issue. If new to this site, and you see a love and hate thread, and the hate thread is what... 5-10 times longer, what is your knee jerk assumption? I think that more than anything else is what is triggering some members.

I will be curious to see how this is policed. Obviously this isn't common knowledge yet, so I would guess some people would try and post something like this for IX who are ignorant of the ban. I don't think IX will be as controversial as TLJ, but more so than TFA, so it will be interesting to see how this plan takes shape. If I were to make a prediction, I think the more popular threads after IX will be arguments over retcons. What were, are they really, should they be there and what they missed and should have retconned. I think that will be the highly debated topic of 2020.

 

This may be an annomly. As far as I know, there are no hate, love threads for Solo. I don't mind these types of threads, actually. I mean, it's better then having thousands of threads saying I hated or I loved movie; they're just spam.

 

I've said it before, I believe TLJ was a perfect storm. I don't think love or hate threads would run anywhere near as prominently for IX, even if they were allowed. Firstly, I think a lot of haters just wanted their say after TLJ and have probably left the SW fandom, at least as hard cores to come into a forum and debate it. Mystery boxes set up by JJ with hints, rabid speculation driven by those boxes, fan theories, argument over fan theories, assumptions made, head canon, political situation in the US which includes SJW and some seeing that spill into SW (true or not), old characters dying, new and expanded canon, theme of the movie (failure), new characters taking prominence over favorites just to name a few on the top of my head. The passion boiled over, some fans are lost, some are disenchanted, some love it, some are mixed and a bunch of other stances in between.

I think JJ will try and repair it (at least in part), which will bring in the debate over retcons, if they're there, if it's a hard or soft retcon, if it was an answer to TLJ, or Solo, ect... I honestly think that will be the next problem area for moderators. Some former lovers will be angry with a perceived retcon from TLJ, while some haters will love it. People will gloat, head canon for some will fall to pieces, while others will harden. There will be mergers on love and hate with lovers and haters, as in some lovers becoming haters and some haters becoming lovers lol. There just won't be a thread titled with those words in them.

 

I still don't understand why anyone who liked/loved the movie would bother trying to convince/arguing with someone who hated, and vice versa? It is all opinion and none of us are wrong. Now we can debate the specifics of each movie in terms of Luke's characterization, and whether it jived with the OT? Should Rey have been related or a nobody? How Snoke being killed was good or bad for the Trilogy?

But I still go back to this strange phenomenon on message boards of people arguing their opinions of the movie and trying to convince each other they are wrong? A lot of people did that in the 'hate' thread as the Pro-TLJ fans came in here with that motive. I haven't been in the 'love TLJ' thread so someone can correct me if the opposite happened there too? You can be curious as to why someone feels that way, as that seems to be the only point of conversation.

I keep going back to my love for Solo, but not once have ever thought to argue with someone who didn't like the movie simply on those terms? How can I say they are wrong for hating the movie? How can they say I'm wrong for loving the movie? We can debate the actor who played Han Solo, as that is a legit reason why someone could have loved or hated it? We can debate the inclusion of a certain PT character in the movie as to whether it was needed or not? Heck, we can debate Chewy, Lando, etc. But there are specific threads for those topics. But this arguing over that you liked it, or I liked it, or you hated it, or I hated it is just odd to me. None of us can control how we feel about the movie, that's essentially why it's an opinion, not rooted in any facts.

That's why this thread is pretty self-explanatory and it's really simple: It's a thread for fans who hated TLJ.

 

No, the reason why filmmakers need to be subtle in alluding to real world politics in fantasy films is not because some people cannot accept social progress (Screw those people). It is because a sociopolitical message, when offered through exposition, is likely to be received as mere posturing rather than as an incisive and impactful cautionary tale. What Rose told finn about injustice in Canto Bight (to mention the only example of clumpsy sociopolitical exposition in TLJ) felt like a cheap trick to bring Finn’s arc from a to b more than anything else. Everything Rose said was right and I suppose most people relate to the terrible injustice she brought to light. The only problem with it, I think, was that it felt rushed and did not had the impact it deserved.

 

I read all the latest posts about this thread and all I would like to add to this discussion is the following.

Vent about TLJ all you want, ridicule it, have a laugh about it, make friends with others over your dislike of the film. That is fun. That’s what human interaction is all about, bonding.

However, please accept people challenging your dislike and opinions graciously. You don’t have to agree with them. You just have to listen to them and if, compelled to it, challenge their posts rather than them personally.

Also, please do not attack the producers or filmmakers or actors in these films... They are just doing their job. Do not judge them for their work, their twitter account, their political leanings. Do not judge them full stop. Do not wish their profesional and personal demise. Just criticise the film itself, nothing else.

Let the word “hate” be hyperbole. I personally don’t mind it, but only if you focus this “hate” on the product not on people.

I have noticed when participating in this thread that most confrontation arises when people feel under attack. I know that all of us can be a bit catty now and then, and that’s ok, but I think it’s a pity when a good debate is brought to a halt with a personal attack.

I also would like to say to all those who use this thread to vent out not wishing to be challenged about their negative opinions about TLJ, that unfortunately the public thread format of this forum does not encourage their desire, since these conversations are open to all. If you really want a private club of utter dislike and nothing else, make a private chat and vent on. There your prejudice would be safeguarded and unchallenged.

 

I think it comes down to people could be wrong in their opinion, depending on where their opinion comes from.

If you do not like TLJ, and by extension the ST, because of the female lead, you are sexist. If you don't like the female lead in TLJ because you find the female lead is made/written poorly, then you are technically off the hook for sexism accusations. Because then it is no longer about gender, but about the portrayal of the character. The same could go for race, female/male dynamic ect.

Some people see value in the story and think maybe you(we) missed it. I don't consider myself stupid, but much of my dislike of the PT had to do with me being focused on the transformation of Anakin to Vader. So much so that I missed other interesting story lines within that series that gives that series added value, such as the masterful manipulation of Sideous and the whole CW. I think some may think we are equally missing out on some valuable stories and are too focused or hung up on aspects that displease us to properly appreciate the good parts of this movie and series.

There's also the fact that this is a saga. So our displeasure will echo throughout. Some pointed out aspects of TLJ ruins older movies for them, and I believe some fans hate to see other fans suffering (1st world problem suffering to be clear). I think almost every opinion stated in the hate thread there are some people who not only like it despite that, but some actually like it because of that. Some lovers acknowledge that Rey is a Mary Sue and love that she is, they had no appetite for seeing another training montage or reference. Others were starving for that and are jaded because they didn't get it. Almost every issue you have deniers, lovers and haters.

So why do people try to convince others why they love or hate TLJ? Because they see value, or a complete lack of value, (or something in between) in the story and can't believe others can't pick up on that fact (in their minds it's a fact). Success of these movies are mostly tied to profitability, so our wallets are our votes.

 

To be fair, Solo was hated among SW fans since day 1 when it was announced. To see it do bad box office isn't really a surprise. Sadly, the majorty of the fan base ritten off the movie long before it was in production.

I have to respectfully disagree with this. A lot of them were stinkers. Snoke being Maul? really? Rey being a Kenobi is a huge stretch (I couldn't buy that theory no matter how much a person would reach). I think I saw only handful of good theories out there but the majority was lame fan fiction, IMO.

 

I agree with you mostly...I agree that the fans should not personally attack the actors/actresses. I agree that the fans shouldn’t personally attack the producers and filmmakers to a point. We as fans shouldn’t troll or wish professional demise a person.

I have stated in previous posts that I am not happy about how the people in charge decided the direction of the films. I personally think RJ is a good director. I think he did a lousy job writing this movie. I’m not personally attacking him in my opinion, but others may think I am.

I was upset when I read about what people were doing to the actress who played Rose. Those kind of attacks are deplorable and should never happen.

People asking for KK to be fired I think was premature. But she needs to be more attentive to the fans reactions and more understanding and not just consider them sexist or racist etc.

At the end of the day, the producers are the decision makers and are subject to criticism.

 

Funnily enough, many of the people who told me I was wrong for hating TFA were the same people babbling for over two years about how I wasn't keeping my mind open to the "boundless possibilities" of the ST. "What if Snoke is really Plagueis?" "What is Rey has amnesia and is secretly a trained Jedi?" "What if Phasma is the last of the Empire's Crimson Gruard?" "What if Luke is on the island to reach full-scale enlightenment for the Force"?

It was the people who liked TFA who were doing all the spectating, who were trying to fill in the void of the empty film they had just seen. They were writing all kinds of mental fanfiction to keep the hype going, to make up for J.J.'s creatively bankrupt mystery box set-ups polluting the first film, and to chide me for not participating in the hype and for dismissing a trilogy when "all the great things have yet to come."

And all I could do was look at those people with an almost amused sense of bewilderment, wondering if these people knew that they were putting more time and creativity in speculating these films than the actual creative forces spent making them.

Fast forward to the present, and that's still the case. Except now, people write a mountain of self-concocted, unfounded explanations for why things in TLJ make sense and are immune to criticism. Fanfiction by another name, I suppose.

 

This is a great post, and I have to plead quilty of getting caught up in the hype of some mystery boxes for TFA. I liked TFA and I speculated on many of those mystery boxes like Rey having amnesia (LOL!), and Luke had some grand master plan hiding out on Ach-Tu that would all come to fruition in TLJ. The only speculation I never got on board with was Snoke = Plaguis because I simply hated the Snoke character, so he wasn't on my radar for Episode 8.

I fully admit after seeing TLJ and being majorly disappointed (then watching it a few times on BluRay), I went back and watched TFA and started to realize the problems really started with JJ. I really felt duped for several reasons and they had nothing to do with the quality of the movies. I actually think the quality of the movies are pretty good (good acting, good visuals, likeable characters) so the films have rewatchability in that respect. But I couldn't get past the big picture storyline/narrative of this Trilogy, because there really was none. I couldn't get past how TFA and TLJ didn't connect and felt like 2 Standalone movies. I couldn't get past that the ST really doesn't connect well with the PT/OT in terms of a continuous narrative to the point where this story needed to be told.

That is why I have no faith in Episode 9 from a narrative point of view. I think the movie will be fine and will be fun if you look at it as a standalone, because JJ knows how to push the right buttons. For many fans, that will be good enough for them as entertaining popcorn films triumphs a good storyline/arc Trilogy. But there is no way JJ can pull of tying these movies together as a Trilogy, and as a 9 part saga. I'll be honest, I don't even think that is on Disney's radar right now, as they will do enough (probably bring back Luke, show some Leia footage, bring back Lando) and that may just be enough to please enough of the fanbase to get some goodwill back.

But there are fans like me who are just disappointed in the overall story, and it's ironic because the opposite happened with the PT. I think those movies are not executed well, I think there is too much CGI, and the characters never resonated with me. But the storyline/narrative/arc of the PT is very well written, and in the end that is what really matters. The PT/OT story works in a narrative sense (even though the PT movies are subpar), but I honestly don't think the PT/OT/ST will ever work in a narrative sense.

 

I know you’re not attacking RJ personally here. I would, however, say that to describe RJ’s writing in TLJ as “lousy” is not completely fair. First because I know that, objectively, it is not true (I will not get into how the storytelling in TLJ is technically sound as it has been already discussed many times in this thread and I’m sure most of us are familiar with these arguments). Secondly, because I think the word “lousy” is pretty dismissive when talking about someone’s work, even if we are being purely subjective. I feel that it does not give RJ any credit for the effort and time he has clearly dedicated to his day job and certainly little confidence for the future.

There is no evidence of KK not being understanding or attentive to fan reaction. Neither is there evidence that she considers SW fans racist or sexist... Well, I personally have never heard or read any evidence of either claim, correct me if I’m wrong.

To inspire creativity is a clear sign that a story has engaging characters and a universe we delight in inhabiting. I personally like those kind of stories. I enjoy fan fiction, even when indulgent or far fetched, but I usually prefer the more dispassionate decisions of professional writers, as they usually bring more resonance and depth to the story and the characters. I also tend to credit the work of these profesional storytellers, even though some times their decisions or specific craft are not to my liking. I’m a great believer in acknowledging time and effort, particularly when the task to be accomplished is not an easy one.


I appreciate your honesty about your dislike for the majority of stuff Disney has brought to SW. Disney is certainly not satisfying everyone with their SW products. On the other hand, I think it would be unrealistic to expect them to do so...


JJ may have “polluted” this universe with mystery boxes, but he ( and Kasdan, let’s not forget him) did it with the intention of honouring the same approach to storytelling GL displayed in ANH. For me the only mystery of any relevance whatsoever left unresolved in TFA was: why is Luke hiding? The rest of the “mysteries” were, as far as I’m concerned, just speculation made by those applying the general OT use of mystery to the ST.


I must confess I also find somewhat unfair how JJ’s didactic ted talk, in which he informs people about his approach to storytelling, has been so unpleasantly turned against him. I find that people greatly missed the bigger message delivered in said talk, which is that mystery is intrinsically linked to possibility and creativity. Withholding plot information is mentioned as just one aspect of this “mystery box” metaphor. He also addresses other types of “mysteries” such as the hidden emotional heart of action films, the hidden possibilities technology offer to filmmaking and the hidden tricks found in make-believe explosions and violent scenes. This talk was original and candidly introspective, as well as packed full of information. I can understand people not liking JJ’s approach to filmmaking, but I cannot, in all honesty, give any credit to criticism which either misinterprets what JJ admits in his talk or simply scratches the surface of its content.


I hope this post does not qualify as “babble”, but if it does, my bad. I have tried to explain my take on things as clearly as I can.