THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I don't remember them ever saying that about Rogue One or Solo. But she definitely said it about Johnson.

Regardless, I agree with your point that LFL is being horribly run. Parting ways 3 directors off 5 movies just shows how incompetent Kennedy is as a producer.

 

I had to laugh at your post. On the one hand, I completely agree with you. There is no consensus within the fandom. Even if we go within "haters" or "lovers", inside those denominations, there is still a slew of difference of opinion on direction, tone ect...

However, I (may) disagree on letting the creators do whatever they want. I mean, they are free to do it, but fans are certainly free to complain about their choices. The feedback should be important to them, because if at some point they go off the rails and the whole fandom unites as haters, well, that won't be good for SW. That won't be good for us because the content will be so bad it's intolerable, we'll lose a beloved franchise and we'll go without new product or without any good product for likely an extended period of time. I would agree we're not there yet, but that doesn't mean we can't get there.

So yeah, the creators are free to do whatever they want, because we can't actually stop them. It's that simple, we can't. We could however voice our displeasure if they do jump the shark in our opinion. I would even say as a fandom, it's almost our duty to express our opinion, good and bad, about the product. With the feedback, they can make necessary adjustments if they feel the arguments have merit. As long as fans keep things respectable and talk about the product, and don't reply to the poster, I think it's all good.

I see it much the same way if someone criticizes me or my choices or their perception of me. Sometimes it's hard to hear, I may even be insulted enough to not want to interact with that person depending on how they go about the criticism. However, at some point I will look to myself and why that criticism bothered me so. If the criticism is true or I can at least see how they can come to that conclusion, then the onus is on me to change or actively try and show who I truly am or want to be so they don't believe that of me. If the criticism is wrong, then it really isn't about me and the issue is likely about themselves, thus it will bother me much less. Actually, it probably wouldn't even bother me at all and I'd just keep doing what I'm doing regardless of that person's opinion, because at some point they'll realize that their perception was faulty based on my actions.

 

I personally can’t disagree with anything you just typed here. Not that I go out of my way to try to disagree with people. I like game of thrones. The writers do the characters justice. The kill just about everybody off. I’m fine with that. I’d be fine with it when Disney starts a new story in the Star Wars galaxy. I’m not fine with how they treated the main characters here. Sure the creators, owners have the final say, but I just think they should’ve waited to write this way until they started a new story.

I believe that I won’t hate anything else that Disney does with the new stories without Luke, Leia, Han and the rest. I liked all of the matrix movies. When I heard people complaining about the sequels, my original thought was, what did you expect? I still watch them every once in a while and enjoy them.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2018 ---

After watching the video I reflected a bit on the whole situation.

If GL was still the owner and he wrote this, I probably wouldn’t be upset about tlj.
If it was his story, I would be more accepting of tfa & tlj films. But....I know for a fact he wouldn’t have wrote anything like this. Luke Leia and Han would have all lived to an old age.
Part of my problem with the direction is that it doesn’t follow the direction of the two previous trilogies. Especially the OT. In my opinion.
It seems to me that Disney doesn’t care about the characters GL created and just wants to do their own stories. I’m fine with that. I just wish they never did episodes 7-9 now.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2018 ---

99% of the time I would agree with you on this. Just not with episodes 7-9.

But I’m not in it to harass anyone. I’m kind of annoyed with myself that I feel this way about tlj. I wish I could let it go. I really do.

 

don't be annoyed with yourself. I dislike this thread more than i hate onions (omg i hate them.. someday's i'd nuke the world just to get rid of all the onions ) but it certainly has served as a place for everyone to vent.

we've all been in a state of confusion since last December. We all love Star Wars to the point that we're crazy enough to log in to a nerdy forum every day and discuss it to the Nth degree.. and now we find ourselves in the odd position of trying to understand how some of us could love the new movie, and some of us hate it.

I can't speak for everyone here that loved TLJ, but I am heartbroken that so many here didn't enjoy it. Almost to the point that i'm upset that i like it while others don't.

The place we find ourselves in today.. it occurred the day LF announced that the original characters would be back for the new trilogy.

however they used the characters, we would be in the same position today. lots of us might be on different sides of the fence.. but in this mess - we would still be. just my opinion.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2018 ---

i never made such a point. i simply showed that they haven't given the artistic free reign to directors that KK spoke about when they announced new Star Wars movies.

she is the most successful producer of all time (after Kevin Feige of course - although his numbers all came recently).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kathleen_Kennedy_(producer)


it seems so odd to me that JJ is never mentioned in all of this. he wrote and directed TFA, was executive producer for TLJ and is writing and directing episode 9. all i see are posts asking if JJ can "save it".. i just don't get it. #confuzzled

 

I like TLJ mostly. The main 2 problems I have are the opening dogfight and the lightsaber toss.

The characters and the action of the opening fight was just silly. Why did the FO not shootdown Poe immediately when the radar found him?? Why did they make Hux so cartoonishly dumb ?
Hux is so clownish in TLJ and it makes Snoke look stupid for putting such a buffoon in charge. Also Poes lone attack run on the FO ship was video gamey. He just is flying circles around the FO ship and everyone just watches for a while.
The resistance bombers were super slow and fragile, and the FO somehow let's one of them slowly glide to the drop point. How did they not stop that? Poe's crazy plans end up working out because the FO fleet acts utterly incompetent . I might be nitpicking but its truly hard for me to watch the opening space battle.


Also Luke tossing the lightsaber over his shoulder and walking off like a child was ridiculous. Why did they write that ? How did Rian Johnson and the crew film that and watch it and seriously think it was great. It still makes me roll my eyes when i watch it.

Grumpy Luke I am ok with, but the saber toss was cringeworthy . That's the most iconic weapon in cinema and Rian Johnson just said Luke should throw it like trash. Luke may not want the lightsaber due to it reminding him of his Jedi past, but he isnt going to throw that saber away like that and be a child over it. His father made it and Obiwan gifted him it, but the writers seriously think Luke would toss it? No way.


I think Rian Johnson got too arrogant with his approach. Maybe I am wrong, but the reports of him redoing everything inthe script and ignoring JJ's stuff seems likely. Look at Hux for example.
Hux in TFA is a volatile despot but is seemingly competent and is someone we take serious.

In TLJ, Hux is a mentally challenged clown. He isnt even the same person. He's not competent at all and he is used as comic relief.

What RJ did with Snoke is whatever and not really a big deal to me, and JJ made snoke a mystery anyways. But the shock of Snokes death in the theater was more of a letdown than an "OMG" moment.

Also I am pretty sure the plan was for Luke to live into Ep9 until RJ made him die at the end of 8. I dont know how concrete the plan was but obviously RJ was allowed to change it. Ultimately i think RJ Did some good stuff with the jedi lore and the force and the action was mostly good (besides the DQar space fight). RJ beautifully shot the movie and most of the Rey Luke scenes were well written and intriguing. so overall theres enough I enjoy in TLJ to mostly like it. But its not hard to see why so many hate the movie, because the sloppy parts in it are just bad and RJ's story decisions were too crazy not to piss some of the fanbase off.

 

The lightsaber toss has been beaten to death, but I admit it still astonishes me. To me, it’s not even a remotely plausible reaction for anyone. It’s SNL skit-level over-the-top nonsense. I am fine with grumpy, isolated Luke, but tossing the lightsaber and walking away makes zero sense to me. It’s not a believable reaction. Hand it back, don’t touch it in the first place, tell Rey she shouldn’t have come...there are literally hundreds of reactions that strike me as more plausible that what RJ wrote. It was such a bizarre choice and got the movie off on completely the wrong footing imo.

 

But I’m not a jedi...yet

 

JJ is the one who started the ST mess. He's the one who put the galaxy back to the same state as Episode 4. He's the one who made Luke run into hiding as well making Leia and Han have a divorce. He has more blood on the ST than Rian does. He's the one who created the mystery boxes, he gets to answer them for a change instead of relying on other people to do it.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Nov 14, 2018 ---

When they fired Colin, they originally ask Rian to direct Episode 9 but he declined hence why they went with JJ again (Now we know that Rian is working on another project hence why he turned it down at the time). I didn't like the direction they went with TFA but JJ should of been in charge of all 3 movies from the start.

 

I used to hate onions as well. From as early as I can remember, until one day in my 30’s I decided to try them. I hadn’t had onions in decades. Always ordered all food without onions and pickles. One day I decided to try onions again on my pizza. (Double cheese, pepperoni and feta, my usual) I loved the way the onions added to the taste. I started to add onions to just about everything that you can add onions to from then till now.

However, I totally disagree with your belief that “but in this mess we would be”. I know there would still be people that would dislike the movie. You can’t please everyone. But I don’t think it would be as strong of a hate or as large of a backlash. If they would have written Luke differently, not throwing the light saber, not vanishing at the end. I believe solo would’ve had better numbers in the theaters. I don’t believe people would’ve boycotted solo like I did. I wish I had seen solo in the theater. It’s a great movie. Sure Disney didn’t use the books, but I’m fine with that.

Sure, people would maybe be on different sides of the fence that we currently are on, but I truly believe it would be different. I wasn’t happy about tfa. But I didn’t feel the need to find a Star Wars chat room and express my opinions of displeasure.

Just my opinion.

 

Exactly. This here.

 

i'm not sure if i can physically speak to you anymore now that i know that you add onions to everything lol

that's cool.. it's simply my opinion.

even i don't like the saber being thrown, and i doubt that even the fans that do like it would have been upset if the scene had been done differently. (i personally think it makes more sense for him to nonchalantly hand it back to Rey and then walk away).
I do get why so many are upset about Luke's ark in TLJ and how it ended, but just as many clearly loved what they saw. It wasn't what i wanted for Luke.. and somehow.. i loved it. i honestly don't know why i love it.

He took on Ben as an apprentice, he failed and nearly did the unthinkable.. so he ran and hid from the Galaxy. Rey & Yoda kicked him up the ass and he changed his mind.. he picked himself up, performed the most amazing use of the force.. and then joined the force.
Scenes that many on this thread think are awful, against GL's vision and have broken the saga.. i think are beautiful. I wanted Luke to have a wife and kids and to see him training them 30 years after the OT.. i don't know why i love what they did in TLJ. i shouldn't. #imustbebonkers

 

I’m glad you love tlj. I truly wish I could. Your explanation of him performing an amazing use of the force is correct. I can’t argue your point because now it’s canon. I’ve read over 400 of the Star Wars books and never read anything like that.

I know the Jedi are special and can do amazing things. But I found it to be too much. It’s like the Batman vs Superman issue. The way they wrote Superman over the years, there was nothing he couldn’t do as long as there was no kriptonite near by. Batman could never beat Superman. I’m all for creating new abilities as to what Jedi can do, but it was a little too much for me. The communicating between Rey and Ben across light years was a bit much. Yoda being gone for 40 years and coming to commune with Luke was a bit much. I thought there was only a limited amount of time they could do that.

The fact that you don’t know why you love it, is great. It means you are more open to change in the direction of this saga than I am. I’m very liberal in my ways of thinking. I lean conservative but I’m not your typical conservative. But I vote both way. Whom ever is better qualified. I’m usually open to directors taking risks when making a movie. But I’ve come to realize that I’m not okay with major change with Luke, Leia and Han. I wish they would’ve waited.

It’s great that you are understanding in how people are upset about tlj. I appreciate communicating with both lovers and haters of this movie. It lets me explain my opinion while learning others peoples opinions. We all see things in our own way. Some peoples opinions on this movie are fascinating. I find some of the lovers opinions ingenious.

 

True, but as we've seen, NOTHING is done without KK's approval. Heck, she was EVERYWHERE during the making of TFA. She was sitting in on story meetings, etc... And, at the end of the day, she is the captain of the USS Lucas Film. It's her ship. And it's run aground under her watch. Yeah, I know, they've grossed $4billion. But how much have they seen, net? Not nearly as much as they wanted I'm sure, especially with Solo absolutely bombing at the box office (there is no other way to put it).

As for Han.... You didn't state it, but Han was always going to die. So how do you do that? How do you make Ben Solo evil? I'm sure, after hindsight you could do it differently. But they brought in JJ and decided to rework the script that had already been worked on for a year AND not give him extra time. This after deciding to completely throw out George's blue prints. Those decisions are on KK's shoulders. I would have simply reworked Lucas's outlines. I would also not have trashed the script done by what's his name, or, if I did, then I'd have given JJ extra time. Actually that last thing is EXACTLY what I would have done. And while JJ did get executive producer credit on TLJ it means nothing. He didn't have a hand in that film, and I think we are seeing the evidence of that in some of the comments from Simon Pegg.

As for RJ, I like the idea of subverting the audience's expectations. But when do you do it as often as he did in TLJ, it's no longer subversion. It's downright annoying.

--- Double Post Merged, Nov 15, 2018 ---

I personally don't mind a political message in a film. Heck the original Star Wars film was a take on war and the Vietnam war, but it was done in a way that it didn't hit you over the head. In TLJ Rian broke the golden rule, don't tell them, show them. Instead he had Rose Tico running around preaching to the audience (and Finn). You get Admiral Holdo (Hunger Games refugee) preaching. Again, show them don't tell them. There are tons of other things wrong with this film. I could go on and on but we all know them by memory now. I wish I could like it as well, but this film was bad. So bad I rewatched the prequels recently and TPM and AOTC look a lot better now.

I will give Johnson credit. The visuals were outstanding. It is a beautifully shot film.

 

Well, several sources, including KK and RJ themselves, talked about how RJ had free reign. So the idea that other directors didn't have free reign is irrelevant when talking about Johnson and E8.

That's a lame point and you know it. She was not the top producer on any of those money makers until 2015.

What part of that do you not get?

 

What kills me is this talk of KK being this great producer. She was working with Steven F-ing Spielberg and, in some cases, him AND George Lucas. She wasn't working with freakin nobodies. And she wasn't a creative talent on any of those, to the best of my knowledge. She was finances. I'm tired of the KK is this great producer argument. She has shown little knowledge of the IP she is currently in charge of ("The Force is Female") and no interest in learning.

 

so you won't give her credit when she was producer alongside Spielberg or Lucas because she was just finances and not the creative talent.. but you blame her bad producing for the Star Wars movies that you don't like?

i'm not tired of saying or thinking that Kathleen Kennedy is a great film maker. it's my opinion - you have yours.

a lame point? did you research Kathleen Kennedy before announcing that?
https://www.the-numbers.com/person/189790401-Kathleen-Kennedy#tab=technical

before your 2015, as either associate producer, producer or executive producer - the movies that she was involved in making grossed $12b world wide. (approx)
$5b since 2015 with all the new Star Wars movies.

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i'll bow out of this discussion at this point. Kathleen Kennedy has been making movies for 4 decades - many of which have had a magical impact on my life. She deserves way more respect than she's been getting lately in my opinion.

I can deal with anger about a movie you guys don't like, but when i see it focused on a woman that i personally respect so much.. it's too far for me.

 

I don't disagree what you said and I had no issue of Solo dying or being killed by Kylo. I had the issue of him and Leia being divorced period. They should of been together. I had an issue of them NOT showing us Luke's new established Jedi Academy and the flashback of it being destroyed could of easily happen in the middle of the movie or something as a plot point for Kylo and killing his dad would of been his final moment of being evil. Instead they reset us back to ANH. I think think TLJ is meh and mediocre movie but after reflecting it on months, my disappointment of the ST can be traced back to TFA and not TLJ. I figured showing us Luke's Jedi Academy would of been a given. But nope KK and JJ didn't give us that. Since JJ made TFA basically made the galaxy the same as ANH, he just as guilty as RJ, IMO

 

I think everyone who's read the Last Jedi novelization like I have can relate to this.