Can TROS measure up to Endgame?

It is true that if you don’t watch previous instalments of SW you somehow lose part of the story experience and pay offs, but what I meant is that all the SW episodes have always been designed to be individual stories in their own right, to be understood without any context, and for me that’ s still the case with the ST. It is not coincidental that Disney or/ and Lucasfilm decided to use different directors and different writers for the ST. The thinking behind that decision I suspect was to make the films somewhat independent from each other, as it was done in the 70’s and 80’s when the first trilogy was made.

I’m not sure why China does not enjoy SW, but I thought it was mainly because the SW aesthetic does not match the country’s cultural cinema taste, as it is far too retro in clothing, technology, fighting style and general look. Also the dark vs light morality of the OT did not translate well in Chinese culture, where villains and heroes are traditionally more complex. This is precisely one of the reasons the ST is the trilogy doing better in China.

The past legacy is indeed important in the ST, but it is understood in the context of the films themselves. You don’t have to watch the OT or the ST to understand and enjoy TFA or TLJ. And you don’t need to watch TFA to enjoy and understand TLJ... The cinema language is very powerful in both and you soon realise who is good and who is bad, who is the rookie and who is the expert, etc... Simplicity in visual storytelling is key. I’m sure the Chinese understand what’s going on in these films, they just probably find it all too ugly and uninteresting, and that’s fair.

I admit that TV and cinema are changing, that’s evident. I would just argue that this change is always good or suits the predisposition of all viewers... I also know that many films are not all as well told, filmed, edited and structured as they should be, and that some TV shows are gold, that goes without saying. I was just pointing out that, perhaps because I’m of a certain age, I find the 100-150 minute cinema format the best medium to tell an accomplished visual story. This is just preference.

My problem with the MCU is that it has no doubt perfected “that part” of SW I’m less interested in. And with that I’m not saying I’m not interested in the serialised nature of the movies. Not at all. The anticipation for TROS is indeed real, but for me, if TROS were never to happen, TFA and TLJ would perfectly stand as individual films, and that is what I value most in them.

 

As much as we say this, whenever given the choice to start off a new fan with any Star Wars movie, most people would choose the OT. I ask about this to myself pretty often, as I'm always looking for the best way to introduce people to Star Wars, and the answer I can best come up with is because we view Star Wars as one story and this is the starting point. There are things we see as twists that we don't want spoiled without context, something that starting with the PT and the ST do. We can't claim it's the authorial intent, because Lucas changed his mind a LOT and currently states that people should start with Episode 1. We can't claim "the most recent" because that will soon involve starting at the end of the saga with no context, investment, or depth.

Star Wars also has the benefit of the opening crawl. Watching some of the movies without it if it's your first time would make things very, VERY confusing.

The most emotional part of TFA is Han's death. If you never met him before, why should his death really bother you? Kylo killing Han is just a man killing his father - which is undoubtedly terrible - but there's no emotional crux because objectively Kylo has done worse throughout the movie (massacre, torture, stand around when a mass murder on scales unseen took place, temper tantrums). At that point he's just a bad man doing bad things. But we care most about Han's death because he's Han, a character we know and love. Unless you don't, it falls flat.
When Obi-Wan died, we cared because Luke cared; and even then the effect was lessened because it was mysterious and his voice came back in the end. When Qui-Gon died we cared because Obi-Wan cared, although we saw it coming a mile away (even my seven year old self knew he was a goner because of how Star Wars functions). In TFA, we care about Han because Rey cares...? Rey idolizes Han, yes, and she liked to think of Han as a father she never had in the brief time spent with him. Yet, she rejected Han's offer, ultimately rejecting his role as a mentor for her. So it falls on our knowledge of Han and his relationship to Kylo to carry us through for caring about him. A new character who openly is trying to reject him, and an old character who the audience in this context is saying "who is this again?"

I'm sure you're right in that the Chinese understand what's going on. But for four Star Wars movies to perform as they did - especially when the first two released relied so heavily on the OT - I think says something different.

That's totally fair!

I'm super glad you feel this way and wish I could feel the same tbh.
I unfortunately stand inverted right now. TFA doesn't stand alone, nor does it mean to. From the first trailer to the all the marketing to the movie itself, TFA was praised as the return of all that made the OT good (characters, ships, practical effects, etc). It even rehashes a plot we already know is to get us to focus on the characters; but this works best if you know the plot. This isn't a bad thing at all.

TLJ is intended as a continuation of the story like long-form storytelling, but as how RJ saw the story going. But because of this, the slate for TROS is clean. I'm not excited because as a story I don't feel as if "everything has been building towards this," like I did for Infinity War and Endgame. For the OT it was Luke becoming a Jedi and confronting his father as well as the Empire vs the Rebellion. For the PT it was Anakin's fall to the Dark Side. For the ST it's...the final battle between two people who had their emotional arc wrapped up in Part 2? A battle between people I don't feel threatened by and people who will probably get less screen-time than they deserve? Maybe this will all change the closer we get to December, but as it stands I'm pretty "meh" on TROS right now. There are things I'm excited for in the movie, but those are more for characters than the story and I want to be excited for both...

 

Yeah, if Endgame was your first MCU movie, you are doing yourself a disservice. It's made for people that have seen all the movies. It would be like seeing TROS as your first Star Wars movie.

 

Ah no, I don’t think so. The parricide itself has great impact and significance in TFA’s story, regardless of us knowing who Han is and our emotional attachment to this character... The moral fall of Kylo after killing his father changes the tone of the movie and the stakes, making us doubt Kylo’s possible redemption and the power of Snoke. You don’t need the other films to see this. In fact, I always recommend for a newcomer to the franchise to start with TFA, as it is a modern fun film, very likeable and easy to watch. After that, if I see they really enjoyed it, I recommend to watch ANH, ESB and the end of ROTJ, to see Vader killing the emperor, the rest is not needed and not that enjoyable IMO. Then to watch TLJ. The PT for me is optional.

I don’t see it this way. In TFA we care about Han because he is likeable and has a problem with his son. We don’t need the OT to feel that. We care about Obi wan because he died to save Luke and the others, and he is an old sympathetic man with traditional wholesome values. We don’t need the PT to know this. My liking of the characters does not depend on their connection with other characters, that would make them very poorly written IMO.

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2019, Original Post Date: May 9, 2019 ---

I completely disagree. TFA does stand alone as a movie, even with Luke’s face at the very end when he is found. That’s the only indication that the story can continue, but if there was no other story, I would take the ending to mean, the young girl with the powers found the Big Mac who will save the galaxy... Without seeing TLJ, I would have rationalised somehow that Luke was going to eventually return, although with a bit of persuasion. Imagination is a great tool. I could have worked out that ending perfectly and being happy with just that one film.
The problem is knowing too much. Assuming that Rey needs to be connected to someone, that Snoke needs to have a back story like Palestine etc. If you go knowing nothing, TFA works really well on its own. I’ve done the experiment already with a SW’s virgin mind

--- Double Post Merged, May 9, 2019 ---

For me this is not the right mindset for a cinema experience. To think of a movie as a chapter or a continuation of another story is not truly satisfying. SW is so much more that its episodic nature. The films are singular stories and I will always wish they are mainly that. Having unresolved threads is great though, and I like them, but if the whole value of the film depends on them, it will just not cut the mustard for me.

 

I really think Disney would have been better off if they had semi-adopted the Marvel model for the sequels. They could have had 3 Saga films and 2 Origin films in the odd years instead of Rogue One and Solo. Although I like them both, it would have been great if they fully committed to the sequel timeline. Marvel does a really good job of connecting the films even if they aren’t in linear order.

Imagine this...

The Force Awakens
Star Wars Origins - The Resistance (focus on Poe, BB8, Han and Leia and how the Resistance formed)
The Last Jedi
Star Wars Origins - The First Order (focus on Kylo, Snoke, Hux, Knights of Ren and their rise)
The Rise of Skywalker

This would have required a fully fleshed out story and back story for each character but could have been really satisfying.

 

That's a logistics nightmare.

Having to do with contracts, especially Harrison.

Rogue One and Solo WERE your two orgin films

 

Neither had anything to do with the sequels. My point is there were ways they could have followed Marvels formula AND gave some backstory since we skipped 35 years into the future and got Empire and Rebels 2.0 with no explaination.

Somehow Marvel can manage star studded casts and 22 films and not have a logistics problem like you stated. Considering Harrison is rumored to have filmed a dream sequence for TROS, something tells me getting him to do another film wouldn’t have been hard with enough motivation.

 

And yet Kevin Feige makes it look quite easy. Way back when Disney first announced the set of 5 movies and none of us knew what the 2 non-main-episodic movies were, I was expecting them to follow the MCU formula and make those 2 movies character based but still in the timeframe of the sequel trilogy. For example, have Episode 7 then a solo Rey movie focused entirely on her and her development (but also with appearances from other SW characters the way, for example, Iron Man appeared in Spider Man's movie). Then give us E8 and follow that up with, say, a Luke Skywalker centric movie.

Can you imagine how incredibly a Luke Skywalker solo movie could have been?!? I think that would have worked far better than giving us 2 movies which take everyone back to before E4.

 

I think this would have worked well as it would have taken the MCU concept and done it on a smaller scale. The MCU has a ton of movies because there are tons of comic book characters to mine from. However, if the SW story movies were based off ST characters it would have been interesting

 

Yes, and unless you are talking about CGI-ing Hamill to a young Luke, we all know how this "fandom" "embraces" new actors taking on iconic roles.....*cough* vitriolic hatred of Ehrenreich before fillming ever began *cough*

 

You missed where I said that I would have these hypothetical character-based movies take place in the timeframe of the sequel trilogy. You could have 60-something year old Mark Hamill play 60-something year old Luke Skywalker, no CGI needed.

I think the "fandom" would "embrace" Mark Hamill portraying Luke Skywalker, don't you?

 

This exactly. Imagine a film that spanned the 7 years prior to TFA. It could have been done if they had the origin film end right as TFA begins. The plot lines of Luke and Ben, Han, Leia, Poe, and the politics (think Bloodline), and even Snoke/Hux.
It could have been done, but they stuck with the old Trilogy Episode model and it appears that will continue with the new trilogies.

Can we please get a prequel drama TV series with Hamill and Driver as the leads showing us Luke's Jedi, Ben's fall, and the Knights of Ren??? PLEASE DISNEY!!!!!

 

In terms of the general audience, I’d say that Marvel and Star Wars largely draw in different crowds. Marvel movies tend to be much more shallow and put more of an emphasis on entertainment and “wow-factor” than having deep themes or imagery (not to say that those don’t exist in the MCU, but I’d say to a much lesser extent than Star Wars.)

In terms of story, Marvel has an awesome overarching story over all of its 22 movies but much of the plot of each individual movie is pretty weak, while Star Wars doesn’t have too much of an overarching plot across all three trilogies but each movie arguably has a very strong story (whether or not each film’s plot is executed well on screen is debatable...)

As others have pointed out, Marvel movies also have more characters the audience can relate to and come out with many more movies than Star Wars does, which makes them much more relevant to the public. Most theater-goers don’t care about deep character arcs or references to other material like big Star Wars and Marvel fans do, they care about cool action and funny jokes, and while quantity doesn’t equate to quality, the MCU just has more to offer in that arena. Not to mention that they offer a lot of fan service and while that may be gratifying to both casual and hardcore fans, it’s never been a priority for Star Wars with the exception of The Force Awakens.

I’d wager than a lot of younger people think that Star Wars is old/lame/nerdy while Marvel is the cool thing to be into at the moment. I may sound negative about Marvel, but I do enjoy a good amount of the MCU. Obviously my opinion is gonna be skewed because I’m posting in a Star Wars forum, but at the end of the day, I’m a hardcore Star Wars fan who loves the movies (and much of the material beyond that) and more of a casual Marvel fan who goes just to be entertained (and then tends to procede and forget about the movie a week later).

 

Star Wars is as shallow as a bird bath, and so are the characters. Now that wasn't the case before Disney took over, but right now. Star Wars has lost it's substance. This trilogy is wrapped around people instead of the larger problem at hand. Billions of lives have been destroyed and the galaxy should feel something, but no. All people want to talk about are two characters. One character who spent her entire life on one planet, and the other who participated in the destruction of planets. What about the other planets that noticed 5 planets and a government are missing? Would people want a redemption for Kylo if we saw the outcome of his actions? Or has this trilogy been written in a way to make sure we see none of that, so there is no sympathy for anyone else?

This trilogy has been about forcing a certain point of view, and ignoring the larger story at hand. This story should have been much bigger than two people, because the potential was there. Once TFA was over, and people wanted to come to the conclusion that this is Rey's story. It all fell apart. Using the force as an excuse instead of her having an actual purpose is part of the problem with this trilogy. Except for the force, Rey and Kylo have nothing in common.

Marvel recognizes movies have to have a formula if you want people to enjoy them. First and foremost. You ALWAYS respect your characters. Marvel made sure to bring some authenticity to the characters. They look exactly like the way they would look in the comics. Which should tell you Marvel understands what it's audience WANTS to see. It's their money. Give the people what they want.

The deepest parts of Star Wars has been small moments, and those moments from the prequels and the original trilogy would be less than 15 minutes combined.

 

...which I prefer. I'm always more interested in good characters than in good stories. Of course if the characters AND the stories are both good, then it's a jackpot.

I personally don't enjoy them because of that. Most of the Marvel movies are the same over and over again.

 

And more time was spent mourning the death of Obi Wan Kenobi than the entire population of Alderaan who got nothing but a passing mention of "when we heard about Alderaan we feared the worst", suggesting they were only worried about Leia (and maybe her dad by association). So nothing's ever changed since the OT days.

 

I still don’t understand how not liking the direction they took with certain characters is the same thing as treating that character with disrespect. Star Wars has always been character focused and as @Daddy_Stardust pointed out: we see little of the effect that the destruction of Alderaan has on Leia or the rest of the galaxy. Was A New Hope “forcing” Luke’s point of view? Or in Revenge of the Sith, we see little of the effect that the fall of the Republic and the rise of the Empire has on the rest of the galaxy. Was Revenge of the Sith “forcing” Anakin’s point of view? Then wouldn’t the entirety of Star Wars be about forcing a certain point of view and ignoring the bigger problem at hand? We saw the outcome of Vader’s actions, which are arguably worse than what Kylo’s done so far with the exception of killing Han Solo, and we still get a redemption arc for Vader in Return of the Jedi. If Kylo didn’t have a chance at being redeemed, then Han’s death would have been in vain and Luke wouldn’t have said that “no one’s ever really gone” to Leia.

Rey does have a purpose though: “Darkness rises and light to meet it.” She is the first of the next generation of Jedi and serves as a foil to Kylo Ren. In case you weren’t paying attention, this trilogy isn’t all about Rey and Kylo. Finn, Poe, and Rose have all gotten significant screen time and development and Han, Luke, and Leia have been passing the torch to this generation. Hux and Snoke aren’t that deep of characters admittably, but both play an important role in the story and in Kylo Ren’s development. Phasma is just there to sell toys like Boba and Maul before her.

They all look exactly like they did in the comics? Scarlett Witch looks pretty different. And Ant-Man. And Falcon. And Hawkeye. Marvel does give the audience what they want to see: a bunch of action and jokes. That’s why the movies are so successful and why many of them are forgettable because those elements don’t make good movies on their own. Star Wars has action and jokes, but also has a comprehensible plot and more prevalent themes and imagery. There are far more than 15 minutes of deeper parts in Star Wars: the scenes of Yoda imparting lessons onto Luke on Dagobah are the deepest in the series and they probably add up to 15 minutes on their own. I’m not gonna act like Star Wars is Shakespeare or anything like that, but the creators of Star Wars (whether it be George Lucas or JJ Abrams or Rian Johnson) are not afraid to tell their own story and not just fulfill fan’s wishes, which is why Star Wars and Marvel are so different and why I’ll always love Star Wars more.

And yes, Endgame will undoubtedly beat The Rise of Skywalker in the box office, but I’d wager that Star Wars will have the better film nonetheless.

 

I think you need a new hobby, tbh.

 

If you haven't figured out that Rey's character was chosen by the force to be the keeper of the Skywalker Legacy, then you haven't been paying attention. Rey and Finn are the proof that heroes can come from anywhere. There is nothing wrong with this from a story perspective. You can argue execution, but it would simply be your opinion. We all know that whatever comes of the actions of Rey and Kylo will be what determines the fate of the Galaxy. That's pretty deep considering Rey was just eating rations in her abandoned AT-AT house not long ago. Isn't that what these movies have always been about?

 

From 77-83 and then again from 14-???
Absolutely it has been. I think this is where the midichlorian introduction muddles some of this. Is it really a hero from no where or space blood bugs (Im joking unclench folks) making this hero