Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

This sentence contradicts everything that Star Wars is. Star Wars is the hero's journey. Even in the prequels, Lucas was telling the story of Anakin Skywalker. The GFFA is merely the setting of the story and George Lucas had no intention of exploring beyond the mythology of Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. Now that Disney owns Lucasfilm we'll see plenty of Anthology films but Kathleen Kennedy has gone on record countless times stating that the central Saga films, which are the Episodes, will continue to be about the Skywalkers. That's the way it's always been and that's the way it should always be. Maybe some day there will be a Snoke anthology and they'll throw you DP fanboys a bone. Until then you're just going to have to get used to the fact that Plagueis is unimportant to the saga beyond being the carrot that Palpatine dangled in front of Anakin in order to seduce him to the Dark Side.

Cute. I don't even know what to say. You agree with me then suggest I huff paint.

Keep digging, man. Your argument isn't going to bury itself.

 

this is pretty much all i ever knew or understood about the Sith when i saw the OT:



it was a delicious puzzle, and it never bothered me not having an answer.

 

You are far too kind, my old tee-eff-ehn, friend.

All that mattered then and now is this: Darth Vader knelt before that no-name, dark side Emperor when he wasn't even in the same room. When the baddest man in the galaxy drops what he is doing to run out an asteroid field to take your call, does anyone really need to be told more? In the OT: being a Sith mattered, getting called one onscreen, did not.

Is that a double standard?

No.

We haz internetz and the un-limited powahhhh of CAPS, now.


EDIT:

Agreement? And, I didn't bring up the paint,or toes.
I simply suggested painting them with the safer stuff.

Its not an argument.

I'm a fanatic, Plagueis = Snoke is my internet life.

 

This. I agree with this sentence 100%.

So you're saying that Plagueis doesn't matter now?

 

That's what I read

 

Things I have learned so far regarding Plagueis = Snoke.


NO CAMP: Sidious killed him in his sleep.

YES CAMP: Sidious was lying or wrong.

NO CAMP: His name is different.

YES CAMP: He is going by a new name.

NO CAMP: If he is still alive that means Anakin wasn't the chosen one and never destroyed the last of the Sith.

YES CAMP: Prophecy was misread.

Interesting enough a new faction branches off. A YES CAMP with Anakin being still the chosen one forms. So now there are 3 camps.

1. Snoke is not Plagueis camp.

2. Snoke is Plagueis because the prophecy was misread camp.

3. Snoke is Plagueis and the prophecy was still fulfilled in ROTJ camp.

But it doesn't end there... no, no it doesn't. Because now the Snoke is Plaguies and the prophecy was fulfilled camp branch off with different reasons of why and how it was still fulfilled with Snoke being alive still.

We got a Anakin/Rey Reincarnation YES Camp for example. If Rey is Reincarnated that means the prophecy can still be fulfilled which would make plot structure OK for Plagiues to still be alive.

I'm gonna stop there as I'm getting a head ach but there are many more YES CAMPS. But if you look closely you will notice something interesting.

There is 1 NO CAMP that will debate against all theories.

There are multiple YES CAMPS that can't agree as to how or why.

I'm not picking sides cause anything can happen but I thought I would be a mediator and point that out. Like I said before, what a mess.

 

Really easy to disagree from an argument perspective. You aren't arguing from the same premise, so disagreeing with the premise of your argument. Those in favor of Plagueis=Snoke, particularly the one you originally quoted, are basing their arguments on the context of all six movies. Your incomplete argument is based solely on the original trilogy so it isn't comparing on a fair, similar basis.

Tougher, but also factual disagreement is legitimate, on two grounds. Palpatine's name was known before the PT, as well as a little bit of his backstory. It was in the 1976 ANH novelization (although different context, the Emperor Palpatine was weak and ruled by his advisors, kind of how Valorum was portrayed in TPM), as well as the 1983 Return of the Jedi novel, which did indicate he was a former Senator. There's more - books, comics, an RPG game, all of which came out before the prequels.

Darth Vader was referred to as a Dark Lord of the Sith in the novelization for Star Wars, and also in trading cards and possibly some comics and books (Thrawn trilogy later editions, unclear if those later editions came out before prequels). So, at least some people did know generally what a Sith was before the prequels, and it was pretty intuitive that they were the opposite of the Jedi.

 

My argument was based on how they introduced the Emperor, and I judge Snoke on the same basis because he too his a newly introduced character. To try and say we should judge Snoke against all six movies where Palpatine's story was told, is inherently biased. Until Snoke appears in more movies and mediums, I can only judge his first movie appearance against The Emperor's first movie appearance.

It's akin to comparing Michael Jordan's entire career vs Kobe Bryant's first season. An obviously lopsided conparison with limited facts.

And as far as the second point, yes there are small tidbits before the PT, even some that were wrong (the weak emperor lead by advisers bit). But the main point of my argument is that it took multiple movies and mediums to flush out his background in its entirety. And his background was of no import during the OT.

So Snoke does not NEED to have any background whatsoever. He probably will, but it isn't essential.

 

Oh McDiarmid, don't you quit being you, I really do enjoy your hyper hyperbolic posts .

 

Old star wars fans never even heard of Plagueis or jarjar binks until the PT came out 14 years later. And most of us old star wars fans hate the PT. So I think what you are saying is it may piss off young star wars fans.

 

Already happened, I'm afraid.

 

Huh? The OT was the first trilogy. Everything had to be new by definition. You might have an argument if the main villain in the PT wasn't Palpatine. But now we have the context of a 6, soon to be 9, film saga. One story. Plagueis allows it to flow. New Snoke creates a break.

What I want to know is why wouldn't people want it to be Plagueis? Can they really not see how he's the best fit? And secondly, please provide a well thought out alternative. I've been asking for months for people to help me be free of this pain! Yet the only answer I get is: "an ancient Sith who has cheated death".

Come on, give me something:

Who is Snoke, where'd he learn about the dark side, why only emerge now, what's he been doing, what caused his injuries and how did he take over the FO?

In the words of Plagueis' stooge:

"Do it!".

 

I'll just leave this here.

 

This is what concerns me, not the statement but the idiocy behind it it. If DP could save others from death it suggests he does so AFTER they suffer some life threatening issue. If DP cheated death for himself it would be the same. And then Pablo is going by the word of Sidious and using it as evidence. Sidious could be wrong. He's been wrong before.

So evidently, it means jack what Sidious says. Heck, Snoke looks like he cheated death himself anyway so it's clear that it can happen.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 23, 2016 ---

I've waded in, trying to get him to confirm. There is definitely something up with his responses:







I think he got involved thinking he could hide the mystery and it spiraled. If he's said as good as "Snoke isn't Plagueis" then just come out and say it. It doesn't ruin the mystery if Snoke is someone else. It just means he's not Plagueis.

 

The simple decision to make sequel trilogy destroys classic theory of Anakin personally been the Chosen one, and that he personally brings balance to the Force.

This has nothing to do with the characters in new trilogy. That's why Lucas was reluctant to make it. Any sequel trilogy ,destroys this hard theory. But there is place for soft theory, that Skywalkers are the chosen family.

By existence of episode VII, we can proclaim hard theory about Anakin as a schosen one,as obsolete.

 

But Lucas did write a story. He sold that story and was upset that Disney didn't use it - therefore, he can't have been that reluctant. My view is that Lucas wouldn't negate the PT and so would simply have it that the Force has gone out of balance again - that although it was restored the evil that caused it in the first place wasn't completely destroyed and has risen again in a new form.

 

You are super overthinking this. I've said it a million times so far, I don't care if Snoke is Plagueis as long as it helps the story. There are multiple sources of evidence that have me firmly convinced that Plagueis died for good at the hands of his apprentice, just like every other Sith Lord who's ever existed. It's what Sith do, they kill their masters.

There are very simple explanations for the question "who is Snoke" and they definitely don't require the exposition that Darth Plagueis would need to explain his being there. Snoke is the Supreme Leader of the First Order. He emerged after the demise of the Empire because he's smart enough to not get in the middle of a war between the Sith and the Jedi. Maybe he used to be a Sith or a Jedi at one point but he definitely threw out any affiliation with either a long time ago, as is evident by his philosophy that power is best obtained by using both the Light and the Dark. Before he started conquering the galaxy he was sitting in the Unknown Regions, studying Midi-chlorians, baking pies, waiting for the Jedi and Sith to destroy each other. Which they did. He took control of the First Order because he founded the First Order. All he had to do is say "Hey, former admirals and generals of the Empire, I liked what you were doing. You guys obviously still care about what you were doing. Want a job?"

Almost all of this has been implied in TFA and what hasn't been can easily be told to the audience in a couple of lines of dialog. Plagueis would take a lot of exposition. "Hey, remember that one guy that the Emperor secretly confided to Anakin about in order to lure him to the Dark Side? No? Errrrrrr..."

Nope. Anakin balanced it, Snoke has un-balanced it. In a really clever way, too, by using Anakin's own grandson.

 

Let me recall some facts this community maybe has forgotten.This I am talking is from episode VII book, a novelization of The Force Awakens that is available now, so its new canon, simply a
Facts:

Ben Solo was born 1 year after the battle of Endor.


Leia says to Han: "Snoke was watching our son from the beginning, before I even realized what was happening."

Now my dear friends we have complete picture:

Snoke was present in the Galaxy at the time of battle of Endor, where Palpatine and Vader died. And he was already then a powerful Dark Force wielder.



Sith No One Knew Existed- SNOKE


There was no balance of The Force at Endor. TFA denies it as in the moment of death of Palpatine and Vader, there was another powerful dark Force wielder secretly present. Sorry guys, make it over.Lets move on.

 

So he wasn't as capable as Palpatine? Interesting new villain - one that is weaker than the previous and provides no new threat (that we haven't seen overcome) within the mythology.

If he was a Sith, how did he survive the rule of two? If he was a Jedi where did he learn the secrets of the Dark Side?

I don't get this POV. He tells Kylo that Vader's weakness was his sentiment. He gets Kylo to kill his dad so he banishes the light from him. The whole idea of using both light and dark makes no sense. You can't be greedy and selfless. You can't be full of hate but be loving. Not when it comes to mastering the Force.

So this powerful figure on the Dark Side (and dark siders want more power remember) happily sat back and watched the Jedi and Sith fight it out, not ever knowing how long Sidious would rule for if he took over? He would just happily sit there without actually knowing what was going to happen? I think not. Again - that is full of holes within what we know about Dark Siders. And it also again shows that he had no power himself in trying to make this happen. He was thus weaker than Palpatine both physically and mentally.

The Empire retreated to the unknown regions in search of the Dark Side. A Dark Side source that Palpatine sensed. A supremely powerful Dark Side presence. Yet this turns out to be Snoke - the man who wasn't powerful enough to take on the Jedi or Sith himself? Who did nothing whilst the Sith planned to take down the Jedi. Who did nothing when the galaxy was at its weakest during the Clone Wars? Who did nothing when the Sith took over and could've ruled for a millenia?

Can't Snoke just say:
"The Emperor was my apprentice, once" or "I created your father through the Dark Side - our destinies have always been connected".

He doesn't have to say "I am Darth Plagueis" and then go into a load of spiel.

Or, here's a scene for you (with dialogue "borrowed from the classic that is Masters of the Universe and Flash Gordon! - Haha):

Kylo Ren and Snoke have captured Luke.

Kylo: After all this time, The galaxy is ours!
Snoke: NO! Mine.
Luke: [Captive] The Force is not yet left in darkness....
Snoke: Someone is speaking to me... yes. Skywalker, my prisoner, my prisoner at last. I've won. I've won. The darkness is rising to embrace you.
Luke: The dark can embrace the light, but never eclipse it. You've not won yet, Snoke. I feel it...
Snoke: Really? How sensitive you are. Can you feel - this?!
[Snoke uses Force essence drain on Luke]
Snoke: Well, do you feel it, Skywalker? The final moment has come. The Dark Side, all the powers in the universe will be vested in me! ME! And you will cease to exist!
Luke: [Groaning] It is not too late to undo this madness.
Snoke: Madness! I demand of destitution, shame, and loneliness of scorn. It is my destiny! It is my right! Nothing will deter me from it!
Luke: Men who crave power look back over the mistakes of their lives, pile them all together and call it destiny.
Snoke: [laughs] Thank you for that bit of philosophy, Skywalker. Here is my response. Kylo Ren - destroy him.
Kylo steps forward with his saber.
Snoke: Yes, Skywalker! The Sword of your father! The Chosen One - whom I created from the Dark Side!
Luke is aghast.
Snoke: You see Skywalker, I have always been the source of your pain. And now, Kylo Ren, put an end to the Jedi. Fulfill your destiny.
Rey enters.
Snoke: Your champion. She lives. Is this the hope you speak of, Skywalker? [Laughs]
Rey: Ben, don't do this. He's using you. Help me destroy him.
Snoke: You believe you can defeat me? A mere apprentice of mine enslaved the galaxy and brought the Chosen One to heel. The Chosen One that I created.
Kylo looks to Rey and then back to Luke. He raises his saber and Rey jumps in blocking him. The two battle.
Snoke: [to Rey] You have no chance young Jedi. Look at your precious master - now grown weak... withering... dying. Are you ready to kneel as well, proud warrior?
Rey: [To Kylo] Ben, come back to the light!
Snoke: [Continuing to drain Skywalker] Ah, the power. The Alpha... and the Omega... death and rebirth... and as you die, so will I be reborn!
Rey fighting with Kylo Ren, trying to bring him back to the light. During this time Finn leads the Stormtroopers to freedom and the FO war machine collapses. A peaceful resolution to the war.
Snoke: Enjoy this moment, Kylo Ren! This moment where the entire power of the Force will become mine for eternity! Our life-long battle is ending at last in the only way it could: with the destruction of the Jedi.
Kylo defeats Rey (perhaps Rey lets him) and puts his saber to her throat.
Snoke: Now finish this Kylo Ren. Finish it and do what your grandfather could not - banish the light forever. Kill her as you did your father!
Kylo pauses. He hears Han's voice "Snoke will crush you". He feels the stroke on his face.
Kylo: [To himself] My father... [Then aloud]I can't do this...
Snoke: Yes, you will! Yes, you will! Or I shall wreak unforgettable harm upon you!
Kylo: No. [Ben helps Rey up]. I've been in the dark too long and it has brought me nothing but pain. Do what you will...
As Ben returns to the light and the external battle of the FO with the Resistance ends, the Dark Side diminishes. And Snoke feels it.
Snoke: No...no! My power....the Dark Side...
Rey: You're weak Snoke. The Dark Side has left you. The game's lost. Surrender and l'll spare your life.
Snoke: You pitiful fool. My life is not for any Jedi to give - or take.
Snoke relinquishes his Force drainage on Luke and projects lightning at Rey. Ben jumps in the way with his saber, both Ben and Snoke are fried by the powerful lightning. Snoke dies. Ben smiles at Rey and Luke and then passes away.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 23, 2016 ---

I got carried away there with some fanboy scripting but really I think Snoke could reveal his origins in VIII. This will be a source of conflict for both Luke and Rey. I personally think Luke will join the Force early on in IX and Rey will face Snoke and Kylo alone at the end.

Anyway, my point is Snoke just needs to reveal himself as Palpatine's master and the creator of Anakin. Then we will know he is Plagueis but for new folks the reveal is that he was, as I stated, a big player from the start.

 

Never typed those senseless words. Vader knelt because Palpatine was Darth Sidious, using the order of release and the newness of the saga vs the internet age is the oldest trick in the book. As @master_shaitan has already pointed out. My position is simple, my desire is pure, all I want is continuity.... Snoke cannot provide that if he is not Darth Plagueis. Typing in caps and twisting what people say won't change the fact that TFA's Supreme Leader has nothing to tie him into the previous six films. I loathe the idea Plagueis isn't important to the saga or the Skywalker clan.... no one has been able to explain how Snoke is, beyond messing with the emo Solo kid and bossing von hux around. Or why Skywalker is is hiding from him. I could go on and on, but there are five hundred pages of great support already written. Plagueis must be Snoke or it just isn't going to work for me, nothing else makes sense.