Darth Plagueis In The Sequel Trilogy.

This is exactly it. Look I am not in this because I have some arrogant, vested interest in proving a theory of mine (and a million other folks). I'm simply saying that I am yet to hear an alternative that I believe doesn't turn the ST into a tacked on money spinner rather than a well thought out continuation of the mythological tale. I am yet to hear a better suggestion than Plagueis. I am yet to hear how all the questions that have been put forward (and answered by the DP story) could be answered by newbie Snoke.

The fact is, there is a deeper mystery behind Snoke. We know he is someone else and that his identity will be revealed. We know that balance was restored in ROTJ but that Snoke was still around then. We know that Snoke has at the very least hung onto life after acquiring some pretty tasty physical deformities and that he is vulnerable. We know that Snoke is steeped in Dark Side knowledge but that this type of knowledge has never been freely available in the past (Anakin had to turn to Sidious to learn anything about the Dark Side). We know that he watched the rise and fall of the Empire - yet showed no sign of getting involved in the many years prior to that or during it.

I'm not saying that this is proof Snoke is Plagueis. I'm just saying that only Plagueis fits into this without any fuss. Without there being some pretty hefty questions left to ask. The other thing people really need to consider is that a lot is made out of Luke being the last Jedi. That if Luke dies, the Jedi die. That isn't about Luke being the last Force user who wants to do good - that is about the last person with the knowledge of how to become a Jedi. Knowledge. Key word. It was the same with the Sith. As I said above, a lot was made in the movies of the fact that Dark Side knowledge isn't just something you easily come across. The Sith acquired it over thousands of years and passed it down from one generation of Sith to the next. And yet, the suggestion is that Snoke, steeped in Dark Side knowledge, acquired this himself? From outside of the order of the Sith? Now of course, this could be possible. The writers of the ST could make it so. But should it be the case? No. Why? Because it contradicts and diminishes what we have seen in the movies before. No matter how powerful Snoke is, if he is able to get this information himself, without the Sith Order, then it's just plain weird.

"Ah-ha" I hear you say, maybe he was once a Sith and left the Order. Indeed. "But I don't mean he's Plagueis" you say, "he left before that" you finish. So let's say that Snoke is an ancient Sith who for one reason or another left the Order many many years prior to Sidious and Plagueis' reign (the last known 2 Sith before the events that transpire).

The suggestion would be that Snoke left the order, maybe he was presumed dead but stayed alive (cheated death somewhat going by his injuries, the fact he does sit out of galactic affairs and looks zombie like) and sat it out in the shadows. He would've done this for what would likely have been 100 years at least before the events of TFA (Plagueis & Sidious were the Sith that existed prior to TPM, 60 years or so before TFA). So for at least 100 years Snoke sat back and watched as his enemies the Jedi fall and his old allies but now rivals, the Sith take power. Friends, this is identical to the Plagueis story and merely predates the notion of when Snoke leaves the Sith. In other words, it's pointless.

Now, if there was an entire canonised history of Plagueis you could perhaps see why Disney would be forced to look elsewhere. But there isn't. All we know about Plagueis in canon is that he was Sidious' master, that he saved people from death (thus likely looked to achieve that for himself) and that he potentially created Anakin Skywalker. That. Is. All. We Know. Disney could make him whatever they like outside of that. Give him any characteristics, look and motivation they like. Therefore, the only reason I can see why they would want to not use Plagueis is to:

a) Move away from the PT due to the hate it receives
b) Create an ancient Sith character that they can make more films about later, set in the past

Both these motivations show a short game mentality. A money spinning point of view rather than thinking what would make a satisfying addition to the saga.

 

My thoughts exactly. Take a bow.

 

I channeled my inner Jabba this morning.... "Ho-Ho-Hooooooo" when I read that tweet from Pabs.

#PLAGUEISCONFIRMED
​

 

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 23, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 23, 2016 ---

And yes, by all methods of analythics, Plagueis Confirmed.

Pablo Hidalgo can say openly in his tweet that Plagueis theory will be debunked in TFA. Which didnt happened. But he don't cares.

Now he can't openly deny Its Plagueis, because he cares .

Haha, welcome Darth Plagueis the Wise.

 

Pab's still has me laughing....

@McDiarmid By the time Plagueis gets confirmed,
I'll have made one for every lie that Palpatine ever told.​

 

Nicely said.

I welcome any viable and compelling alternative that can fit into the existing framework of the larger saga.

That they don't have to do that, given George Lucas already developed Darth Plagueis and gave them, in that character, a viable path into this Sequel Trilogy era, invites debate (hence the scope of this thread).

I hope it's not for the first (a) reason.

I, for one, love the Prequel Trilogy regardless of its imperfections, and know many other fans do as well.

If they go with option "b" that could be worked out logistically if they can make it fit into the existing history and lore.

That still would smack of retcon, but at least it's potentially with a longer view and possibly with the hope of a character perhaps having as deep and compelling a back story as Plageuis.

In the infinite realm of creativity, all such things are ever possible.

JediMasterRobert

 

Prequel trilogy was hard to make,it was much more informative, elaborative in its nature, and we should be generous to Lucas. Episode III is very good film by all criteria.
About Plagueis, again ther is no villain that can connect entire saga like Plagueis, because of simple fact that Plagueis was mentioned in two scenes, both of them amongst most important scenes in entire saga.
So indeed we can imagine they can make very interesting Non-Plagueis villain from the past, even can develop explanation what was he doing during episodes I-VI, but they can't put it to be mentioned and be a part of developments in previous films.I think this Plagueis trait is very important and indeed unique. This lifts the value of entire saga.

 

question for the Plagueites:

if Snoke is Plagueis in all but name, is that unacceptable?

it feel like elements of TFA and likely the ST at large are being plucked from random EU stuff, but creating whole new characters, etc.
Kylo Ren is Jacen Solo / Ben Skywalker with a Revan-inspired look, but he's none of those characters, really.
it is just because Plagueis is already canon in the PT that makes the need for him (and not a surrogate) so necessary?

i've got no pony in this race (just a reminder). i don't care who Snoke is i just want him dead ~ hahaha.

 

I would take that as a giant middle finger...

Pointed at the face of anyone who bought a ticket to the PT or spent a dime on related EU (Legends) material. All, or nothing, ain't no half-steppin when it comes to the Legend of Darth Plagueis the Wise.

 

That is unacceptable to me. Because it still creates the same problem - the idea that there is this new guy who is steeped in dark side knowledge (this type of knowledge has never been freely available in the past ); that was around when balance was restored; that has at the very least hung onto life after acquiring some pretty tasty physical deformities and that he is vulnerable; that watched the rise and fall of the Empire - yet showed no sign of getting involved in the many years prior to that or during it. Basing him on Plagueis just means that we have this guy that we can't really explain certain things about. He will feel dumped into the middle of the saga - Too convenient and tacked on.

Snoke: "I'm Snoke and I've been watching all this happen but now it's my time to attack"
Audience: "So where'd you learn the Dark Side and why were you content to do nothing for so long?"
Snoke: I was a Sith that was badly injured, cheated death and then waited until my enemies disappeared and I could take over".
Audience: So you're Plagueis then?
Snoke: Nope. Just some other Sith with an identical backstory.
Audience: Huh.

Plagueis fits all those points AND connects this trilogy to the first. Although we know Star Wars has never been fully planned, when Lucas finished Ep VIII, it felt like it was. It felt like a well rounded story made into 6 parts. A newbie Snoke would in my view put a break in that. Give it that reboot feel (that they are getting dangerously close to at the moment anyway). Plagueis slips into place, explains all the questions that need answering, enables us to watch the PT with a fresh look and provides a framework for a character that raises many interesting possibilities (father of Anakin, cheats death, source of the Dark Side, plagued the Skywalkers from day dot).

 

That is most unacceptable scenario for me personaly. It will be open slam in a face of Plagueites and all the fandom. It will be proof to Plagueites they were right about superior story-wise traits of Plagueis, but they were all stupid to think Disney must follow the rules and chivalry .A dirrect insult to fandom. If they don't want to make Plagueis to be Snoke, let the gentlemean make their own new villain that is story-wise at least barely comparable to plausibility of Plagueis story, why to use again former intelectual property of Lucas, if it isn't Superior?

BTW Lucas will cry for the second time "White slavers" and I dont believe its nice to do this to a man.He did not deserved this.




picture above: George Walton Lucas, Jr., author of Darth Plagueis the Wise.

 

so definitely a beaking point. that's cool. i've got my own list of "intolerables" for the ST, so i can understand it. and, as you said, there's no good reason not to make it Plagueis, really, other than to just do something new for the sake of newness.

your dialogue made me chuckle ~ ha!
i admit, as i said above, there seems to be no reason for it not to be Plagueis. i guess i don't care either way because i'm not that attached to this part of the mythos, but i can understand that others are.

but i'm curious now, if you feel like Lucas indeed ended it in ROTJ (am i right in assuming that's what you meant? you put VIII, but you're just referring to the PT 7 OT, right?)anyway, if you felt it was so done, then why couldn't this be a new story with a new villain?

is it just because we've still got Skywalkers running around loose in the galaxy?

 

If Snoke isn't Plagueis I am going to make a Netflix show called: Making a Star Wars Villain

It will be about how people in authority made all the evidence point towards one guy being the true identity of the main villain, but he then turns out to be someone else entirely. It will be the greatest miscarriage of justice in the history of the development of a film character.

 

I would be fine with that, particularly as it ultimately attests to the genius of George Lucas in creation of Darth Plagueis, a character whose motivation,

It is entirely possible Snoke could have taken on multiple personas over the years. Or maybe he could be some "great pretender" feigning "Plagueisness," a shapeshifter even (which we've already had in Zam Wessell http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Zam_Wesell).

If there was just the novel, which is no longer canon, I think it would not be of much consequence, given how so much of the rest of the Expanded Universe was summarily dismissed under the Legends label.

But, since Plagueis was referenced in a prominent scene by the centermost villain and the most pivotal point in the trilogy, that makes all the difference, as he's not merely canonical but part of a much larger potential storyline enveloping the entire saga.

I think this is what it could come to - two possibilities:

1. Perhaps, if Disney sees the Sequel Trilogy as the last "Skywalker trilogy" (i.e. the conclusion of the "Skywalker saga"), then they have every reason to develop or bring in a character such as Plagueis as Anakin's possible creator, to bring the saga full circle and construct an appreciable end to the veritable "plague" heaped on the galaxy.

2. If Plagueis is felt to be too "ultra" a villain, perhaps Disney might prefer "saving him" for "Sequel Sequel Trilogy," which makes Snoke simply an intermediary antagonist before the true next/final-level one appears. This primarily $erve$ to extend the $toryline and delays fulfillment of the Skywalker saga to at least Episode XII.
​

If it turns out to be the 2nd option above, then Snoke might simply be a go-between, and his "Supreme Leader"ness is really not all that it seems to be, as there would be a "Supremer Leader."

As Qui-Gon Jinn would say, "There's always a bigger fish."

Snoke does seem rather fishy....

JediMasterRobert

 

a lot of fans are already outraged and dissatisfied with the loss of the EU (now "Legends"). did that not seem like a bigger risk? yet they took it.

 

Sorry, I meant Episode III. Too used to writing the V down!

I had a problem with the idea of the ST all along. I felt Lucas, after making III, tied up the ending of ROTJ. There wasn't much of a story to tell after that. Lucas said that himself! But alas, it was announced and so I thought about how could they continue it without it being tacked on and diminishing the saga that has come before. My only answer was Plagueis. That he was the true source of the conflict and not until he is destroyed can the Skywalkers be free of the plague that has cursed them for decades. I thought that made good sense. You could even justify it by what we hear about Plagueis in III. And thus I thought that this would be the directed Lucas would go in to (especially since he provided Luceno with drawings of Plagueis and a backstory in 2011).

 

aha! maybe this is what i'm wondering about. i do think Snoke is fishy and i have felt from the start that he's a McGuffin. smoke and mirrors.
is he a new villain?
is he Plagueis?
is he a puppet of Plagueis who will never reveal himself, but always be lurking in the shadows?

if he is Plagueis, can they really defeat him? where does the franchise go from there?

 

It was the easy choice if they wanted to put Chewbacca in the movies. I'm fairly certain that the rest was second fiddle to seeing the walking carpet on film once more.

 

okay, i can see that. i guess for me it doesn't need to be the ancient villain badgering the family down through generations, but i can see how that makes for a satisfying coherence.

i think you and i agree that the Skywalkers maybe don't need to be the center of the universe (do we?), so guess moving away from a villain likewise at the center of the universe makes a sort of sense to me too.

 

That is a possibility to an extent. After all, if they finish another villain in this trilogy can there be yet another out of the blue villain revealed if they do another trilogy? And keep in mind, Plagueis could save others from death...maybe he did. And maybe Snoke returned the favour?

#SnokeIsPlagueis'BoyfriendWhoSavesPlagueisWhoIsTheRealBigBadConfirmed