For those who have seen the movie, do you like it or hate it?

Lurker for 7-8 years, finally signed up to say

I LOVED IT. Saw it twice in 12 hours and had a blast both times.
Once the hype and excitement disappears I may be a lot more critical (well, I already am of a few small things regarding Rey)- but the bottom line is this: I had fun. I was shocked excited, completely caught up on everything going on screen. I cried, laughed, and my heart soared. Thats what I want a movie to do to me.

The Pros that stuck out to me-

Spoiler

-The more nuanced writing instead of black and white story telling. This was most evident with Poe. A trigger happer, likable guy who mean well Like Poe has been done a million times- and often its portrayed RIGHT that he took it upon himself to disobey orders, act like he was in charge and stage a mutiny. i loved how the film was bale to say no, he was wrong, and was coming from a place of ego, of wanting to be the big hero- and that it was in fact mostly arrogance that lead to his actions. And all the while never saying this made him a bad guy. No ones perfect, a hero complex is one of Poes flaws, and he accepted that in the end and grew.

Finn had a similar arc but never from a place of arrogance, but from just wanting to do the right things. A great progression from his character in TFA who, even though he wanted to run away, did also want to be the big shot hero. Both of these characterizations (I wanna be the glory hero, but also we have no hope and I wanna run away) were resolved well as his character developed. His best peice of character for me was when leia laments that no one has hope or answered their call- and Finn is the one to say lets not give up and run, lets have hope, lets be that hope for the galaxy. A lovely change from his attitude in TFA.

-Really liked Rose

-The Throne Room scene. All of it- Reys little drop saber move in particular.
But also- special shout out to Daisy here. After the fight shes internally like "YES! I knew he would turn, I knew he'd see the light, now we can save everyone one and-" And then when Kylo starts ranting and its become apparant there is no saving him after all, he was overthrowing Snoke to take over, he was never going to turn or at the very least, this was the moment he stayed dark for good-- the HEARTBREAK on Reys face as she realizes hes only going deeper to the dark is amazing.

Daisys actign really got me. When she says 'Please dont go like this', my heart broke with her. I was like no, no Ben, you poor sad, idiot, dont do this.' Amazing moment.

Ditto the bizarre mirror scene- acting was great again and gave justification for Rey being so open to bens manipulation.

Speaking of- does anyone else think that whole mirror sequence has anything to do with Force Projection?
It went out of its way to show that all the Reys didnt do things simultaneously, but a second apart- which means anything a Rey does at the 'start' of a line of Reys, a Rey at the 'later' part of the line does it at a different time; if the line is infinite, then possibly years apart.

Which immediately made me think of Lukes projection being him of a different time. Thoughts?

 

Unfortunately Luke was the guy that in ep. VI, in front of emperor Palpatine, threw his lightsaber and refused to fight against Vader
preferring to die instead.
Totally out of character. Sorry.

And RJ knows it. So much so.. Luke "almost" killed Ben Solo.

Truth is, this silly reveal is only a silly device to build up something even more silly: the force-skype-calls.

Add to that that all Kylo's arc from 7 to 8, is surprising only because is - IMO - is schizophrenic storytelling.

ep.7: tempted by light side and in deny of his own family. Meaning he hates at least his father, so much so he kills him. Played by Snoke.

ep 8: played by Snoke because of his "family issues". No, joking: he's traumatized by Luke. No, he's playing someone else. No. He was just
plotting all the time seeking absolute power.
Of course, all the novels some of us have read are just garbage.

 

in a nutshell.

for what it's worth... the critics are raving about it, and a large percentage of fans love it (judging by posts here). the same could not be said about ESB when that released... it was panned initially by critics and fans.

i'm not knocking anyone who dislikes it... i wanted something that challenged us, and gave us plenty to talk about for the next 2 years. i believe LF have succeeded

 

So as I read some of the more scathing posts, I can't help but wonder if I'm reading about TLJ or if this is for "deuce bigalow: space gigalo". I respect everyone's right to their opinion, but I can't help but suspect a lot of you made up their minds ahead of time, and saw the movie to decide why. I don't get why some people think they come off as geniuses for picking something apart, and being the defiant voice of opposition. Perhaps you've lost sight of what made you love star wars in the first place. I was 5 when I saw Empire in its original theater run. It was the greatest thing ever, I instantly wanted every toy and to see it over and over. Watching as a child, it was so easy to not over think every little detail, and to really want to like it. I try to remember that as I watch the newer films. If you go in with a chip on your shoulder, expecting to dislike it, I promise you will be able to pick apart enough to fulfill that expectation. Rian Johnson had a formidable task: to keep true to what we all know and love as star wars, without rehashing what's been done. I think he did an excellent job. I watched it, knowing I wanted to leave happy, and I found plenty of reason to do so. If you're going in with an open mind, and you have trouble not over thinking and are genuinely disappointed, well I don't understand your opinion, but I respect it, and I wish you the best at finding your love for star wars again so you can enjoy it like I did. But if you're a pretentious cretin who planned on hating it ahead of time, despite still being compelled to go to the Thursday preview, I think you need to jump ship to the MCU or middle earth or something else, and I hope you find a string in your next jelly donut. While I agree with one of the critics to an extent that this is a place to state our opinions, I feel more importantly that it's a place for like minded people to share in our love of all things star wars

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2017 ---

Just to clarify one thing, I'm not saying I'm opposed to anyone criticizing, but ridiculous nonsense like saying the phantom menace was better, that's just absurd.

 

I loved the look on Kylo's face in the fight scene when he looks over to check on Rey and she is kicking butt! He's like...."this girl is fierce!" LOL!

 

As a preface to my comments, let me say there is no bigger Star Wars fan out there. I grew up dressing as a different character every Halloween. My three sons have been indoctrinated in the ways of the Force. We've seen all of the films (even my youngest), every episode of the Clone Wars and Rebels. In short, we are Star Wars fanatics, and although I had some mild disappointments with The Force Awakens - which felt a little too rehashed and left too many unanswered questions and unexplained back story - I came away from it very entertained and feeling good about the direction of the franchise. I felt like it was a good reboot. So, I was excited going into this movie - anticipating it like no other. I was going to be glad to see where Rian took the characters, and how he answered some of the questions - Who was Rey? Who was Snoke? What were the Knights of Ren? Why did Luke go into exile. I felt like he had a blank canvass with which to work magic. Given the early reviews of the film, I was excited - characterizations like the best film since ESB; a truly shocking and heart-wrenching film, major characters meeting their end, etc. So, I literally could not way for the 9 p.m. showing.

Well, I walked out of the film around midnight last night and the only emotion I felt was one of great disappointment. No, strike that: massive disappointment. For me, this was not a good film - perhaps the worst in the series. I literally was debating with a friend last night - is this truly worse than The Phantom Menace - and it's a close question. From the meandering, busy and disjointed story line, to the way that Rian wrote and disappointingly used some of our most beloved characters, to the unanswered questions, and the disappointing answers to the few questions he DID answer.

We still don't know who the Hell this Snoke guy is or where he came from. You're telling me the guy who is apparently the most powerful dark side user in Star Wars history is given no back story whatsoever? Zero? Zilch? Nada? He just pops up, appears out of nowhere after we believed the dark side had been defeated, and we are supposed to just accept that without any questions being answered? And now he's killed off, so good luck getting JJ Abrams to explain that to us in the next film. There there is the question of the Knights of Ren. Who the Hell are they? Are they jedi in training who turned bad with Kylo Ren? If so, how and why did that happen? And where the Hell are they? We saw them in the flashback in The Force Awakens, did we not?

And then as for the Rey story, we did get her explanation - apparently she was just the daughter of two dead beats who left her on Jakku. So, why the Hell did we see that force visions in The Force Awakens that suggested so much more? Why did the lightsaber of Luke - which was suggested calls to the seed of the Skywalker bloodline - "call to her"? Why did we see Kylo Ren look like he was sparing her life during the massacre of the Jedi? Why did he kill the assassin that was assisting him slaughter the jedi right before the assassin was about to strike her? Why did we see a force vision of her being left of the planet if the answer is really that simple? It's as if Rian didn't like the story line that JJ set up, and instead of extrapolating on that, he just decided to scrap it altogether and expects the audience - which has been studying that portion of the movie the last two years - accept the ridiculously simplistic answers he provides.

And then there is the question of why Kylo Ren - just a "scared boy" as Luke called him who was trying to understand why his master was about to murder him - then go on a mass murdering spree that literally wiped out every Jedi? And why the hell is Luke so freakin' distraught about that he would literally seclude himself on an island for the last ten years because of his guilt when the explanation is so simple as to what happened and who was responsible for Kylo Ren - Snoke and Kylo Ren, not Luke, as Rey explained to him and as Leia explained to him. Why such massive guilt over a kid turned bad?

And then as for this link between Rey and Kylo, Snoke was somehow able to reach out across the galaxy and find Rey, connect her to Kylo, but he cannot locate where Luke Skywalker is? Really???

And what is the deal with the dark side hole and the mirror that seem to do absolutely nothing related to the Force, or test our hero? It's just one big great stupid tease.

And the secret Jedi books and compass - what did they tell us? Absolutely nothing. Why the hell is that even in the movie.

And then there is the ridiculous plotline regarding the Resistance trying to escape the First Order by keeping their ship just ahead of the First Order ships for hours. So, you're telling me one of the many star destroyers that were following Leia's ship couldn't speed around in front of Leia's ship and make quick work of it? We are supposed to believe that several massive ships with massive canons could not make quick work of Leia's ship? And the First Order - despite having a massive advantage in terms of ships and firepower - is allowing smaller ships carrying our heroes like Fin and Rose to go on missions without being destroyed?

With regard to Luke, he comes to the aid of the handful of Resistance fighters to merely be a decoy to allow them to escape, but does not communicate to them that is what he is doing? They are supposedly in a fortress with only one exit in and out, but they somehow figure out he's trying to be a decoy while they find another exit, rather conveniently. And this is just an aside, but why does Luke come back in his Force vision looking 20 years younger? And then he for some reason dies, despite the fact that Kylo was fighting only a force vision?

As for the plot lines with Fin and Rose and DJ, I truly wonder why it even exists, other than to give our heroes something to do while the plot everyone is interested in is slowly (and disappointingly) fleshed out.

In short, I now understand why Mark Hamill - in his guarded comments - seems so disappointed in the story Rian has created. It is a massive disappointment what he makes Luke. There was no reverence whatsoever for his legend. This was a massively disappointing movie on so many levels - from the absurd plot, to the way our characters were treated. At the end, I honestly felt no emotion after Luke's death. In fact, I hate to say it, but I almost felt happy they killed him off so they could do no further damage to the character's legacy. There are no cliffhangers, and there is no place to go. At the end of The Force Awakens, at least there was a set up for a great story moving forward. Now, it's literally starting over with Episode VIIII. Outside of dealing with the end of the war, they literally can take it anywhere. Not the way the second act of a three part trilogy is supposed to go.

Perhaps this is an overreaction by a disappointed Star Wars fan that will dissipate in time, but the wound is still fresh. For me, Rian Johnson ruined Star Wars. Ruined it.

 

I completely understand your point, but I’d just say my issue might be the exact opposite. I was VERY geeked up for TLJ...loved TFA and RO and prior RJ movies. Based on the reviews this week I thought this movie was going to almost certainly be a Top 3 SW movie for me. Perhaps I set myself set up for disappointment.

But even a day later...Mary Poppins Leia, slot machine BB-8 driving an AT-ST, and some of the worst SW CGI ever....

I will absolutely see it again. I’m really hoping my first take is off. But admit I don’t think my view will change much.

I’m going to watch ESB tonight to try and cleanse my SW palate.

 

DJ existed to Not Be Han Solo -- I think what was great. He takes the money and runs. Everything about this movie was an antidote to nostalgia.

 

If Luke had believed in the goodness of people for the benefit of Ben Solo the way he did for his own father, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Belief in humanity is simultaneously a rejection of predetermined destiny. Human beings, despite all the prognostications of others, despite the doom saying, or the heralding, have the ability to choose what they become. Anakin should have been lost forever, everyone else had written him off, except Luke. He didn't accept the proclamations, he believed in Anakin's ability to still choose the same way Rey believed in Ben. However brief the instant was, Luke absolutely did lose faith in humanity. In this way they've made Yoda more human than Luke; who I will again point out, sensed great fear in Anakin and yet did not contemplate dispatching him as a result of it. Worse, we are left to reconcile that Luke is tempted by the the thing that he is simultaneously most repulsed by... the fear of falling to the Darkside. I'm not sure how anyone is going to untangle this needless convolution of imagery. Luke, being historically afraid of doing something that would take him to the DarkSide, contemplates doing something that will take him to the DarkSide, in order to prevent someone else from going to the DarkSide, which ultimately accelerates their descent to the DarkSide. ???

And again, it's not the message that I have the most issue with (there is truth in the message about human frailty) it's their chosen vehicle and the apparent disregard of his established attributes and trajectory to deliver that message as a "wow I didn't see that coming" moment. I mean I'll ask again, does anyone have an on screen example of a Master Jedi, by way of fear or hubris, contemplating killing someone based on what they might become?

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2017 ---

Luke also shows up in TLJ astrally projecting himself across the galaxy and physically fighting another person; something we never see Jedi Order trained Obi Wan and Yoda do. I don't think the argument that Luke is a master in name only is one that will gain much traction.

Luke overcomes his fear and anger in ROTJ, it is literally the point that he actually becomes a Jedi, which has been his central pursuit in the trilogy, a legacy he builds upon. This new "Luke" We are discussing as fact and canon is because Rian wrote it, not because it is was an inherent and unavoidable extension of previous events. Again, if there were equivalent examples that happened with Yoda, Obi Wan, Qui Gon, Mace anyone taking a similar out-of-character step at a comparable stage of life, I could at least rest my hat on their being precedence. There isn't one. It exists now because Rian wrote it.

I'm not debating what we saw happened on the screen I'm debating if we should have; does it run aground of established lore and in my mind it absolutely does and needlessly so.

 

"Force Skype Calls", lol
This didn't really bother me. Everyone's saying it's a stupid "new" force ability, but is everyone also forgetting that Luke and Vader did the same thing. This film only explored it further.

 

After time to sleep on it. Not on was I not happy in the end, Rian Ruined Luke Skywalker. Ruined. He ruined him well. It’s the story that sucks not his direction of the film other than milking that creature. Really?

 

Yeah, according to these early poll results, it's not even that divisive. 80% think it is between OK and Great. And 66% think it is good or great.

I think a lot of "purists" or "traditionalists" are gonna be the ones who are most mad. But whatever. I'm tired of predictable plots, rigidly linear storytelling and preordained character arcs. I didn't want to watch 2 and a half movies just to see the widely expected swordfight between Rey and Palpatine 2.0

Someone called it schizophrenic writing and you know what, clearly that's what the saga needed. Scramble the eggs, give us something to talk about. I can't believe that some people are frustrated because Kylo Ren isn't predictable enough for them. I hope they spend the next two years complaining. Let the vast majority of us talk about this new shift in the saga.

And of course critics love it. In modern filmmaking, a movie that is just a plot and characters unto itself can be good. But a movie that makes a larger - some might say meta - statement about society, or filmmaking or even its own history as a franchise is going to be catnip to critics and TLS certainly did the latter

 

If you think Luke conquered all his demons in RoTJ watch the first to last episode of TCW -- even Yoda hadn't done that at almost 900 years of age. That was a story hatched by GL -- I think Ol' GL was making a point there The inner battle never ends.

 

I couldn't agree more with everything you have said, we have a really similar interpretation of Luke's story arch and how they butchered it in this movie.
Imo the jedi order of the prequels had become extremely dogmatic and decadent, their behavior was not much better than the Sith at the end. Both Obi-Wan and Yoda seemed to have decided that Anakin was irredeemable and that he should have been stopped no matter how. Luke surpassed his masters and in his wisdom he knew that self sacrifice instead of ending his father was the true light side choice, thus allowing Anakin to redeem himself in some way and defeat the emperor. The sole idea that Luke even considered ending his troubled nephew and student is completely out of character and a complete regression as you said, I also take it as an insult, JJ and RJ are probably good directors but their story treatment so far demonstrates they don't understand star wars at all.

Now for the ones who ask of what would be the alternative... anything... I can think of many other better scenarios on the top of my head. If we take into account the events of TFA which were a bad choice from the beginning imo, you could just say Luke failed from preventing Ben from going dark not that he was highly responsible for it. You can add that Luke had a family (like Mark said in the interview) and that Ben murdered them as well, that would have left Luke devastated on both accounts and a temporary exile would have been justified, especially since the Luke I know wouldn't want to kill Ben even after that so avoiding confrontation and finding a way to defeat Snoke and redeem his nephew would have been his goal.

 

Just thought of something. For those who hate that Snoke got very little background information, how did you feel about the Emperor before the prequels? He had just about as much mystery as Snoke. Easy to forget that.

 

I love this post. I thought this film was Epic upon initially seeing this. However, I now have my doubts.

To me, TFA and TLJ are too vague. If you ask any normal cinema goer who the Knights Of Ren are they would have no idea!. Why, because JJA and RJ cannot be arsed to explain IT!. I have an idea, and so does my son. That's cos we read all the websites etc. Ask my wife and she would have no clue. And she has seen every film, but does not dissect every thing on the internet. JJA and RJ should hang their heads in shame for not fully explaining them. After all, they have had nearly 5 hours of film time to do it, and they didn't. A 2 second flash back in TFA, and a brief mention in TLJ ain't enough i'm afraid. So much could have been done with these characters. So much for the bulls..t on Making Star Wars that Luke would fight these characters on Anch-To!

 

Not a good comparison. The Emperor isn't in ANH, wasn't played by a high profile actor, wasn't hyped up and killed by Baby Vader in ESB. By the end of RoTJ you had a good sense of the relationship between Vader and the Emperor, and a good idea of how the Emperor rose to power. It felt complete.

In this case, RJ knocked off a bad knock off LOL and he did it with extreme prejudice. He obviously didn't care for the character or see any future for him. It was a very unceremonious demise. Go Rj! Hated Snoke -- the name, the copy-cat nature of him, the fake "mystery" surrounding the character -- there was no mystery, the script was kluged together at the last minute and no one making the movie had given him a back story. He was just Emperor 2.0 -- and now he's dead meat!

 

Sure the Emperor isn't in ANH, but TLJ had a ROTJ feel at a lot of parts. And we had no idea how the Emperor came to power. Both powerful dark side force users, both slain by their apprentices because of their hubris, both with murky backgrounds. I think it's a fair comparison.