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Han Solo's sacrifice and its repercussions for the ST

Discussion in 'General Sequel Trilogy Discussion' started by Obi-Wan Solo, Apr 1, 2016.

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Han Solo's death as related to his son's fate

  1. Han Solo's sacrifice will have a profound impact on his son and it will be what ultimately saves him

    29 vote(s)
    76.3%
  2. Murdering Han sealed Ben Solo's fate and he is forever lost to the dark side - Han died tragically

    9 vote(s)
    23.7%
  1. Obi-Wan Solo

    Obi-Wan Solo Force Sensitive

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    Yes! Ben is a very nice, gentle name, just like you said. The change of the name (together with the helmet on and off identity he has is also meaningful I think...We see him as his most vulnerable and sincere when he is with the helmet off and his face (and humanity) is revealed to both us and the people he does it for (Rey and Han). Sort of like he is mostly Ben Solo without the helmet and more Kylo Ren with the helmet.

    That is really just a guess game now...We shall see, we shall see...

    ------------

    BTW I just came across somebody quoting this excerpt from the junior novelization about Han's reaction to Kylo's face which we know he hasn't seen for years (question still remains how many?) It seems I need to get that novelization and read it too...

    "Ben had the wavy dark hair that Han remembered, now shoulder length. His mother’s cheeks. Han’s chin. Yet everything about him was narrow and stark, as if he had starved himself of nourishment. And his eyes were not the dark brown eyes Han remembered. They were dim and dark and terribly sad."
    — Han Solo seeing his son again, as described by Michael Kogge in the junior novelisation of The Force Awakens
     
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  2. AstromechRecords

    AstromechRecords Jedi General

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    Maybe he has an identity disorder and is two people in one body.
     
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  3. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    my brother can't even think of them as the same people, which is interesting. he has a complete disconnect between Kylo Ren as a masked persona and unmasked--as if they are two absolutely individual characters.

    i don't see that personally. i see Ben hiding behind the mask as Kylo Ren for most of the movie. the only time he's mostly convincing is when he's talking to Lor San Tekka at the very beginning. i feel like it's pretty much all downhill from there from the moment he notices Finn.

    yeah, that's what i was referring to when i was talking about the wrong book. hahaha. we obviously read the same stuff.

    "dim and dark and terribly sad." that's really potent. if i was a kid reading this, it would have made me cry probably hahaha.
     
    #63 FN-3263827, Apr 10, 2016
    Last edited: Apr 10, 2016
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  4. Anberlin357

    Anberlin357 Clone Trooper

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    Just to break your hearts a little bit
    benandhan.jpg
     
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  5. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    When Han Solo forced Kylo to meet on that bridge...It was end game for either Solo or Solo Jr. No way in hell would they both walked out alive...
    I actually think that when Kylo realized the truth of Han's words that Snoke is just using him...he wanted Han to end it all for him right then and there...to free him of this pain e.g. conflict of light side of the Force and dark side of the Force he has imo been feeling his whole life....I feel that Kylo only really wants serenity....and control...and when he changes his mind and chooses to kill his father...I believe it's the last desperate attempt to gain a measure of control....to become the ultimate evilness....only...that didn't happen...why...because Han rather sacrificed him self than his child AND he forgave him for killing him just before he fell into the light of the thermal oscilator's lower levels...

    Han's sacrifice will be the instrument of the last Skywalker's redemption (Ben Skywalker Solo)
     
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  6. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Hi, @Dark Cutie--welcome to the Cantina!

    Ha ha--that catwalk was a dead giveaway that something bad was going to happen one way or another! ;) I don't think Han would have killed Kylo Ren, though, no matter what, because of what Leia asked him to do. I think the risk was all on Han's side in terms of life and death.

    I don't think that KR was asking Han to end it all for him, but I wouldn't put the absolute kibosh on it, because it can really read that way. As messed up as Ben Solo is, it does remain a possibility (in my mind, anyway).
    "It's too late."
    "I'm being torn apart. I want to be free of this pain."
    "I know what I have to do, but I don't know if I have the strength to do it. Will you help me?"
    "Anything," Han replies.​

    My current understanding of this is that Kylo Ren knows the task Snoke has set before him (kill his father). I think (drawing on the mythos of the Dark side from the prequels) that the idea is that killing him will give him more Dark power or strength and will overcome the pull to the Light to end the pain of conflict. (That is what is tearing him apart--the Light-Dark conflict.) He still loves his father somewhere down inside, even though he hates the way Han abandoned him (or so KR feels), and killing him is more than his pull to the Light will allow. Yet somehow the Dark side wins out at that crucial moment and he passes his "test." Yet he fails to either end the conflict or gain strength, because killing his father weakens him instead (per the novelization). (We've been talking about this a bit over in the Kylo Ren thread too if you're interested.)

    I'm not sure I'd say Kylo Ren is in pursuit of the ultimate evilness. I don't think he thinks of what he's doing and the First Order in terms of evilness. I'd guess he thinks of it in terms of "order," or perhaps "control," as you say. Or maybe more Dark-side immersion. (Of course, we would call it getting deeper into evil...) But I wholeheartedly agree that Han's forgiveness is going to haunt Ben Solo (who's so not "destroyed," as Kylo Ren claims ;) ) and will be a key to his redemption!
     
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  7. McDiarmid

    McDiarmid Force Sensitive

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    Han Solo's heroic death has already placed a seed in the heart of his son.Snoke is liar, a puppet master who exploits people.
    Lea said to Han, "bring our son home"... and Han did only thing that can place a seed in Ben's heart for this to became possible one day. Snoke is a liar, Han' last shot of his life was its wise speach to Kylo and than heroic sacrifice,he even gently touched his face though dying, a precise hit in a lie.Deep in his heart Kylo knows now his father was a great, brave and wise man, who loved him to the point of giving his life for saving his soul.Snoke will never completly erase this from Kylo's memory and heart.
    For explanation of Snoke the puppet master please refer to thread "Case for snoke"
     
    #67 McDiarmid, May 1, 2016
    Last edited: May 1, 2016
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  8. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    @Dark Cutie , @Choose Light ;

    when i first saw the movie, i absolutely had the impression that Kylo Ren was insinuating that there was only one way off the bridge: either he kills his father or his father kills him. so i took the surrender as his saying: help me make the decision, or take it away from me altogether.

    but since then, and after reading the novel, etc., i don't think Ren wants to die or has any intention of giving up his own life. i think he wants to surrender, but doesn't trust enough that everything can ever be okay again or that his family can ever fix what they don't understand. he believes Snoke understands. so he chooses Snoke. again.

    and hopefully one day he will see that Snoke will never make the sacrifice that Han did, and then he'll know where he truly belongs.
     
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  9. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Hey @Choose Light and @FN-3263827
    Thanks for the warm welcome...I feel like I will love this place :)
    I can se the way you can see things but I see my way better so I'll probably continue thinking along the lines I do...but fresh perspective is always welcome, so thank you for responding :)
    I don't think kill or be killed was ever a choice for Han...what I meant is that we, the audience didn't know how this would finish exactly...at least those that knew no spoilers like me...I kept hoping that he will not kill Han although I inately knew he probably will....but all the tine kept hoping he won't...
    I think Han partially convinced Ren that Snoke is using him...and that Ren would surrender to Han...but then the star was consumed and the light dissapeared and he chose the darkness one more time in the last desperate attempt to extinguish the conflict inside him....but Han's touch took that all away....I believe that this is the worst thing he does before going back towards the light....

    I would love to read all the posts in this forum but that would be impossible so I will probably limit myself to the Kylo Ren's redemption thread. That is anyhow the most important thing to me in SW universe. I was not much of a fan until the Han killing scene....that performance change my view of the galaxy far far away...

    Cheers and looking forward to exchanging opinions :)
     
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  10. Valim

    Valim Rebel General

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    Cool thread
     
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  11. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Well, we all have our own favorite ideas, and most of us also like to hear other perspectives and discuss them, so you are in the right place! ;)

    I think Kylo Ren knows Snoke is using him, but refuses to admit it and is paralyzed emotionally to make the break. (I think that is why he has such animosity toward Finn, who was able to make the break from the FO.) However, I don't know where Kylo Ren stands in terms of how his ideals line up with the FO's ideals--that's still a bit fuzzy for me. It seems clear he and Hux don't see eye to eye, anyway!


    Kylo Ren's redemption is the most important thing in the ST to me too--to me this is the only way to provide a true and good sequel to the original trilogy. :)
     
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  12. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    #SaveBenSolo

    Screen Shot 2016-05-01 at 11.20.24 AM.png


    i feel like he's bought it hook line and sinker for the moment ~ the FO is there to serve his destiny. and i think that's why he and Hux are at each other's throats. Hux's ambitions are likely every bit as much out of scope as Ren's are to Hux in terms of how they perceive each other and the FO's goals.
     
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  13. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    *chuckles*
    #SaveBenSoloButLeaveATouchOfKylo

    He needs to find the balance of both aspects of the Force and not just chose a side...

    How do I like posts here...layout of the forum is bit confusing to me....
     
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  14. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    you gotta have 30 posts before you're able to "like" things (then the option becomes accessible and will show in the layout).

    re: choosing sides ~ i think that's where this is going too.
    there isn't anything good about Kylo Ren (it's just a persona).
    i think the truth is that his essential personality won't change if he rejects Snoke/Kylo Ren and returns to being Ben (though he may feel a lot better).
    he is who he is: Light/Dark for a reason.
    i think Snoke has preserved that for his own ends (chaotic at best), but Luke will want to preserve it too (in balance).
     
    #74 FN-3263827, May 1, 2016
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  15. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Yeah...I agree :)
    consider this post "Liked!"
     
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  16. Valim

    Valim Rebel General

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    I selected the top answer, however, I think Ray will ultimately be the one to save Kylo. Hans death will be a factor I'm sure though.
     
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  17. Dark Cutie

    Dark Cutie Guest

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    Disagree....he must save himself...If you sinned, no one can save you but your self...because no one else commited the sin but you....Han's death is a trigger or Ren's redemption, Rey (her compassion/love) can be a catalyst....as Leia's love for her son....but the desire to change must come from within Kylo/Ben....otherwise is not legitimate nor it is authentic....
    My thoughts, anyway...
     
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  18. FN-3263827

    FN-3263827 First Order CPS
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    i agree ~ he needs to choose for himself.
    but he's going to need a lot of help because he's a mess.
    he needs someone to trust implicitly and he needs a support system.
    his family is in no position to provide that for him at the moment (even if he can stop being angry at them, the trust there is ruined).
    Rey is the most logical choice: she's a peer and he can connect to her because of her FS.
     
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  19. Choose Light

    Choose Light Mando Maven and Brown Eyes Backer

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    Although I agree that Ben will have to choose to turn back to the Light himself, I have a little nitpicky point to add. In ROTJ Luke says, as he tries to get his father off the Death Star, that he's going to save him. Anakin replies, "You already have"--meaning Luke saved him. Now, we all know Anakin had to choose for himself to ditch Palpatine and Luke certainly didn't do it for him because he was getting (emperor). But Luke's persistent and unconditional love for his dad is what prompted Anakin to do it and brought out the buried good in him. So although Luke technically didn't save Anakin, he also did save him, because without that motivation Anakin would never have chosen to kill the Emperor. Now, I don't think Rey is necessarily going to have unconditional love of the same variety as Luke's, but maybe there will be at least a level of trust and friendship/dedication between them that will put Ben in a place where he has the courage to change. (How TPTB would get the two of them there, I do not know. It is a veeery long distance away at the end of TFA! Maybe Force bond FTW? :p)

    So all that to say, yes, Ben will have to save himself, but Rey can be the catalyst that saves him too. (I know you all weren't disagreeing with this--I just wanted to point out that having a crucial role can be considered "saving" too.)
     
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  20. FN-3263827

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    absolutely! it's semantic (to me) to say nobody can save you but yourself.
    because yes, you have to want to be saved, but people need catalysts for change (and support to transition and maintain).

    alcoholics can decide to quit drinking (and do all the time), but unless they have a system in place to keep them on the straight, they're always likely to relapse (the problems that cause one to be an alcoholic don't just go away). i think of the Dark similarly: it's a drug and Ben's a user because he's got all these problems he can't seem to deal with more constructively (or, more accurately--and sadly--he honestly thinks this is the right way to deal with them).

    i don't know how they will do it either. him being gaga for Rey seems like it would totally freak her out.
    but this is a magical world, so there may yet be some magical connection that can happen.

    #ForceBondFTW!
     
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