How do you interpret the prophecy of the chosen one

You're missing my point.
The prophesy says a chosen one will bring balance to the Force. That is all.

The Jedi, rightly, believe the Sith are causing the imbalance. Those Sith are Sidious and Vader. They are the Sith that are doing things that cause imbalance.

The prophesy didn't come as a piece of paper with a description of what it meant. It didn't say "destroy the Sith" - it was just about bringing balance.

The Jedi know that the balance could be on the slide in TPM but at this point they think the Sith are extinct. So already There is the notion that another evil group could cause imbalance. But then the Sith reveal themselves and the Jedi, rightly see that they are behind the impending imbalance.

So the prophesy was correctly seen to be about destroying the Sith but it was specifically about the Sith who were causing imbalance - Palpy and co. Some other Sith or dark side user who is sidelined through injury is outside of this.

Thus Anakin destroyed the balance eroding Sith, Sidious and himself, and thus restored balance. Only after this does Snoke come out of the shadows and he corrupts the balance again as Lukes Jedi fall.

 

And you've assumed he has?

Uh, have you seen his face? And he has been described by Serkis as vulnerable.

See above. But Snoke being around isn't just about the balance, it's simply about - what has he been doing? He's a dark sider. Dark siders crave power. Yet he has been unheard of? Logic tells me it has been because of his vulnerability. His injuries.

I'm not disregarding him being a Sith! Jeez. I said he could be a Sith. Or a former Sith. But he's been inactive.

How in a million years is that irrefutable?!

After ROTJ. The FO rose from the ashes of The Empire.

Not irrefutable. They might have been. Snoke might be something else.

The order was, yes. Luke wasn't.

Not interested by that stuff. Non-canon, EU stories are a different entity to the movies.

 

Many times.

And yes they look active. But tell me @FallenAngel when did the Resistance come to power? When did the FO emerge and from where? Did it happen before or after Anakin destroyed Sidious and brought balance or after?

Anakin bringing balance didn't mean forever. That would be insane. You can't destroy all evil and for all of time. Evil co-exists with good. That's what balance is. It just unfortunately went out of balance again 10 years or so after ROTJ because Luke's order was betrayed and destroyed and the FO rose from the ashes of the Empire.

On that note, goodnight.

 

@master_shaitan
I always read your opinions, sometimes i agree and others don't, but you always deserve credit because there's always substance beneath your theories.
In this argument i thought you were going in the direction of the choosen one being a Sith, witch wuold make sense and might explain the bigger picture.

@FallenAngel
You pointed the right things, what happened.
BUT in my opinion Snoke might be a good guy (Jedi?) during the OT and perhaps only after an acident that marked him phisically and psichologically he turned into the Dark side and pick up the Empire remains.

One Question to you both.
I don't like the messianic stuff, no matter the direction it takes, wouldn't Star Wars be a better experience without any religious or profanic attachments?

 

Thanks, appreciate that.
Just to clarify, what do you mean by "chosen one being a Sith" and that explaining the bigger picture?

You know, I do find it overtly religious. It just follows the same story of most mythological tales. All heroes have a fantastical birth story. It's not even fully stated how Anakin came to be - just that he was prophesised to bring balance. I think first and foremost, Star Wars is a mythological tale, so for me I enjoy these elements. I find it all the more richer for it.

 

The original prophesy, from the first draft of the first film spoke of a son of suns who would bring an end to the dark times.
That's how I see the imbalance caused by Sidious' Sith Empire. In between that, at times there are small shifts in balance but nothing prolonged. The Jedi were on top of that for 1000 years.

Once again you are showing your ignorance and your failure to comprehend my posts.
Imbalance is caused by evil running amok in the galaxy. Evil being everywhere, impacting everything and everyone.
If Sidious took a few days off that will still be the case.

Sigh, I give up with you. Read my posts.

Eh? Bailed? From what? From your crazy posts about how "Annikin" brought balance by destroying the Jedi? No, I didn't bail from that. I just gave up with you!
I'll stick with my reasoning that is fully backed up by the films and George Lucas, thanks.

 

@77th

You might find this interesting:

Q: The first three films in the series were in a sense, morality plays, but you've taken it a lot further in the new one, because there's almost a quasi-Christian element here that Anakin is the result of a virgin birth and he is the chosen one. How intentional was that?

Lucas: It wasn't really meant as a virgin birth, more as a metaphor for life.

Q:So, you weren't trying to invent a new religion there?

Lucas: No, no. The idea is that the hero, throughout mythology, has always been the result of a special birth. Usually, as with Hercules, the father is a God. Every hero has a mysterious birth.
- Barry Norman's Film Night 07/99

+

I've been very conscious about not making movies religion-specific. When I brought Star Wars out, it seemed most religions used it to demonstrate their own beliefs - not only Judeo-Christian but also Eastern. And in many cases, people have said they're much more Eastern than Western in nature. The ideas of virgin birth, the freeing of slaves - the issue of Immaculate Conception is a motif that runs through all religions, all stories about the local deity or the local hero. It's the same thing with Hercules. Most heroes are conceived in an unusual way. And in this particular case, it's actually not Immaculate Conception, it's conception by metaphor.
- George Lucas

 

When you resume to this:
"You're missing my point.
The prophesy says a chosen one will bring balance to the Force. That is all.
The Jedi, rightly, believe the Sith are causing the imbalance. Those Sith are Sidious and Vader. They are the Sith that are doing things that cause imbalance.
The prophesy didn't come as a piece of paper with a description of what it meant. It didn't say "destroy the Sith" - it was just about bringing balance.
The Jedi know that the balance could be on the slide in TPM but at this point they think the Sith are extinct. So already There is the notion that another evil group could cause imbalance. But then the Sith reveal themselves and the Jedi, rightly see that they are behind the impending imbalance.
So the prophesy was correctly seen to be about destroying the Sith but it was specifically about the Sith who were causing imbalance - Palpy and co. Some other Sith or dark side user who is sidelined through injury is outside of this.
Thus Anakin destroyed the balance eroding Sith, Sidious and himself, and thus restored balance. Only after this does Snoke come out of the shadows and he corrupts the balance again as Lukes Jedi fall."

I thought you were meaning that after the death of Palpatine and Vader the Force was in Balance because there was a fair amount of Jedi (Luke) and Sith (Snoke?) - At least a Sith was standing to balance things out.

The Choosen Sith is what i get from your words, "They are the Sith that are doing things that cause imbalance", because the major unbalance should be caused by the sheer might of the Jedi Order, the Jedi Order was so big and so important that a Sith choosen one was needed to destroy it and establish balance to the Force.

Actually i understand your likings over mythology because i might be the guy who absolutely knows everything about western mythology. I just don't like mixing Mythology with Star Wars because the result is just inferior, Lame. I'm the one who read Odysseia and the Ilyad to my baby soon, Theogony is my bedside book, i follow Norse and Celt Mythologies Hollydays (today is Fev 2 - Imbulc), i'm writing an Norse Mythology book over the last 5 years, and i'm also a Star Wars Fanatic.

Besides "Stranger in the Stranger Land" and "Dune" there's no good mythology in the Sci Fi works, star wars included.

On other hand, George is wrong, Hercules (Heracles) is a minor Hero, son of the human Alcmena, Heracles is just a story (the serpents in the craddle, the 12 tasks, the Zeus connection, the mad family killing spree) that later on was somehow connected with the Greek Pantheon, just like Perseus and Achilles, those were just heroes, humans, the real prodigy in the greek pantheon, the chosen one, is Dionysius the savior. But everybody is wrong with the Norse Mythology as well, the messias is Baldr, the one who leads the Aesir after the Ragnarok.

 

I think balance in the force refers to the eternal struggle between shifting light and dark side dominance. Out of this struggle, the force becomes stronger and more powerful.

The light side keeps the "peace" and finds ways to sustain the force/living things, but it doesn't lend itself towards evolution or growth - it prefers to keep the status quo. On the opposite end, the dark side is chaotic, destructive and unsustainable in nature, but I believe it has a greater purpose beyond simply being evil - it promotes innovation/change and serves as a reality check for the light.

The dark side causes changes in understanding the force, its power, how to use it etc. of which the light side tries to find sustainable ways to nurture it. This process repeats itself in a never-ending cycle and if it were to be brought to a halt, because one side of the force is suppressing the other, the force becomes out of balance.

Quoting the opening part of the Journal of the Whills:
"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light."

This is what I think refers to balance within the force - a balance that does not refer to a single moment in time, but to an ongoing, eternal cycle (similar to that of day and night), for the purpose of growing the strength of the force.

 

No, for me balance has nothing to do with the equal numbers of Jedi and Sith etc. Nor with either side having equivalent good and evil to nullify each other. In my view, only the Sith/villains cause imbalance because they disrupt the natural harmony of the galaxy. I can't see for one second why the Jedi Order would cause imbalance. They of course became less able to do their job properly in the PT due to a number of factors from their own arrogance, pride and rigidness to the fogging effect of the Dark Side. However, as we see in all mythologies, the end game is never for the good guys to be destroyed. It's for good to triumph over evil.

Can you really take the mythology out of Star Wars though? In my eyes, that's exactly what Star Wars is and why it has been so successful. It's a reworking of ancient mythologies for a new generation. The genius of Lucas was being able to work these mythological tales into his Star Wars Universe. Heck, his version of the Force is something that appeals to hard core atheists like myself! Something has to be said for that. And I think the hero journey of Anakin Skywalker is something quite special. Although perhaps not executed on screen as well as it could've been, his story of a good boy turned evil and then redeemed by his son is a wonderful one. Along this journey there are so many elements to take in and learn from. It's mythology at its best - providing young people a moral guide through showing them a mythic tale they can actually relate to.

Anyway, good luck with your book.

 

I got the idea after reading Neal Gaiman's "American Gods" and realising i could do it so much better.

The plot goes like this:

- A very old man, with just one eye and a huge white beard, is run over in the streets of Paris, in the Hospital they realize his body is full of Rune blueish carvings (it's the big man himself)
- The disturbance is felt across the universe, Ratatoskr goes crazy
- The Mares rise and strike terror in their path (Mares are the Norse Dark Elves = Nightmares)
- Thor in his usual fast response and light minded goes to Jotunheim blaming everything on the giants, but gets trapped by Utgard Loki, Thialfi makes it back to Aesgard to ask for help
- Balder unites the bravest warriors of the Aesir (Tyr, Valli, Vidar, Bragi, Sif, Hoder) and went to Jotunheim, a great battle unfolds
- Meanwhile Hermod the raider finds Odin by following his ravens into Midgard, Hugin & Munin, he manages to bring back the all father to Aesgard
- Surt unleashes and is ready to destroy a defenceless city
- But Varda in her own forethought and wisdom, sense the danger and called in the Vaenir to protect the sacred city
- But the twins get tangled with Sjofn and cannot be of any help, Sjofn lured Freyr and it's up to Freyja to release her brother
- Surt finally arrive to Aesgard, Njord and Hoenir jump into action but get knocked out, its up to Skadi, goddess of destruction, to save Aesgard, the final showdown, Ice versus fire....

But first i need to finish writing it in Portuguese (my native language) and then translate it into English, before i could post it or publish it.

--- Double Post Merged, Feb 2, 2016, Original Post Date: Feb 2, 2016 ---

As i said i just thinked you were heading towards the Sith Chosen One, Darth Vader could easily be that guy because he wipe out the Jedi Order as we know.
The Sith Chosen One actually makes plenty of sense, why nobody considers that the good deeds might unbalance things out? Consider a Scale, both sides could unbalance it, when you consider that only bad guys affect the force isn't that a bit forced and one side minded and prejudice?
An equilibrium is achieved when BOTH parts are in a proportion that leaves them stable, but either change on any part of that proportion would unbalance things towards the othe part no matter what side is. C'mon i'm used to read your opinions and i know you don't believe in that partial, maybe naive thought, you know better.

About Mythology in Star Wars, well i would like to say that's the part things didn't get quite right in the big picture. I always considered that Sw had a chosen one line in the background just because "Dune" was about a chosen one, things regarding mythology and religion in the SW Universe are vain and pitty, sometimes they talked about something but later on theyre just saying the complete opposite.
You're right when you say that SW is about the Hero journey, the tasks and the perils of the characters that rise to achieve greatest things, Spot On to You, BUT i personally consider they mess things up when trying to explain their inner motivations or moral achievments, because is poorly done and the whole movie experience would much better for us viewers if they didn't start to dwell with things they don't need or compreend.
Worst things in the Star Wars: Force Ghosts and Force Generated People (are completly useless to the movie development and just deliever som many unsolved questions)
And talking about Moral and character motivation: Why the good guys let the bad win and innocent suffer (Yoda and Obi Wan went under and commit a very evil deed, they refuse help to ones that needed, they shouldn't be Jedi anymore), Darth Vader "turned" into the Dark to save his love (actually this is the ultimate good deed, if you killed one or a million people in order to save an inocent you became a morality high standard and all after life riches are granted to you in all earths religions) and after turning and loosing his love whats the reason for him to continue being BAD? (none, in a logical development of his character personnality he should kill himself or go away).

 

....Because I think the balance referred to in Star Wars is actually about peace.
But even when there is peace - i.e. no war raging across the galaxy, good and evil still exists. But they exist in harmony with one another.
The good and bad sides of the Force stem from the good and bad in everybody. Even when there is balance, that exists.
The Jedi maintain this peace. They are keepers of the peace after all. And when the Sith aren't around they're still putting out fires across the galaxy to ensure that it doesn't grow into something bigger. Something that will destroy the balance.

Now for the Jedi in the PT, they sense the Force is going out of balance but can't grasp why. They believe the Sith dead. They arrogantly assume they are capable of maintaining peace. But then the Sith emerge. And the Sith have massive power. They are more capable than anyone else to spread evil far and wide and completely destroy the peace. Thus the fine balance between good and evil is disrupted. Suddenly evil is everywhere. As Kenobi says to Vader:

"It was said you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!".

The difference with the Jedi and Sith and the reason why the Jedi can't do too much good, is that the Jedi listen to the will of the Force. They serve it. They maintain the balance as commanded by the Force. The Sith are different in the way they use the Force. Instead they command it. They bend it to their will. They use it to get what they want. Thus the Jedi aren't able to go beyond their role of keepers of the peace. They aren't missionaries, pushing the good side of the Force across the galaxy. They are just peacekeepers, turning up wherever there is a serious conflict and bringing an end to it. The Sith on the other hand seek to push their evil everywhere. This empowers them and helps them achieve their goals.

And like I say, this makes sense as a fulfilling and coherent mythological and moral guide. It's a completely backwards idea to me that the good guys in a fairy tale are the ones that need to be destroyed. What's more, if the balance of the Force was corrupted by the Jedi, why or indeed how is it the case that it is consistently shown to be unbalanced towards the dark side? That the Jedi's powers are diminished? You're saying that the Jedi needed to be wiped out, but how could the balance of the Force be unbalanced in both ways?

When discussing balance the most important thing to remember is that the Force exists outside of the Jedi and Sith - that it is an energy field created by all living things. The collective consciousness of the galaxy. The Jedi and Sith have the greatest impact upon the life that creates the Force, but they aren't the Force themselves. They just use it. So when we talk about imbalance I think it is clear who does the unbalancing. The Jedi aren't going around making sure everyone is loving and compassionate. They aren't trying to eradicate hate and anger in everyone. They can only put out the fires when they arise. But the Sith corrupt everyone. They spread fear through violence, aggression, war, hatred and greed. As it says in the opening scroll of ROTS, Evil is everywhere. This then infects people across the galaxy and this induces them into adding more darkness to the energy that is the Force.

Seriously, wtf?! Sorry, but that is the craziest thing I have heard! First of all Darth Vader turned evil because of his own greed and selfish desires. His attachments. It wasn't about unconditional love, which is what the Jedi DO encourage. Yoda and Obi Wan were exactly right. And in the end, the death of his wife that he wanted to prevent was caused by his own evil actions! True love and compassion is doing right by the ones you love for their sake. It isn't acting out of your own fears, desires, passions. Secondly, to suggest that it is high morality to kill one or a million people to save someone that you love is morally bankrupt. It's very easy for a good person to do this. Heck, I'd probably commit such evil to save my kids. But that doesn't make it right. And if I believed in a hell, I'd assume that in committing evil to save my loved ones for my own selfish desires, I'd be heading straight there!

Because by this point he has been seduced by the Dark Side and craves more power. Anakin always wanted to be more powerful. There was more to his turn than just wanting to save Padme. And then after she dies, he blames everyone but himself, seeks revenge and is full of anger and hatred. He also has this misguided view that he should rule the galaxy.

 

@master_shaitan this is getting good but i think you are saying almost the same as me despite stating not.

I've said here before, the Force in Star Wars is the Japanese "Chi" or Chinese "Qi! the life energy within every living creature, wicht can be sensed and manipulated, in a moral comparison is exactly the same as Aristoteles Souls, the begining of life but for Aristoteles even the rocks were living creatures they had mineral souls. The force could be used by the ones who seek her and understand it trought training and experience. Good and Evil are both actions but what separates them is the goal of the user, if someone's control the chi in order to do good things to others he is doing the Good things but if they use the Chi to enrich themselfs they are doing the Bad Things, but there's no duality in the Universe, we don't get a white universe were only good deeds are done neither have a black universe were only the bad and evil survive, NO, the universe is a collection of shades of grey, because everyone is capable of doing good and evil deeds depending on the situation or the moment motivation, some greys are darker because those peolpe tend to do evil deeds more easily while other greys are brighter because there are people that don't understand or compreend what's evil, but even those could harm someone or do a bad thing under the wrong surrounding, Good and Evil are in all our Souls. Even Hitler, the nastier and dumber guy we know in the last one hundread years has done some good deeds, i remembber he saved his nice a coulpe of times but then ordered the slaughter of little kids.

The balance between Sith and Jedi only exists, or only makes any sense if there's some kind of equilibrium between the forces, not in numbers but in a relation of power and this could easily be an assimetric relation (70%-30% and not 50%-50%), but Sith and Jedi must Exist both in the universe, you can have one without the other. Now lets face that the dominant Jedi Order won't go unbalanced with the presence of two sith (Palpatine and Maul) no matter how powerfull they might be (Yoda alone is a super gamechanger in terms of force power), if the Force is unbalanced and it needs a chosen one where do you thing the unbalance is? (hundreds of Jedis or a couple of Sith). Think that even GOD had two servants, Gabriel to spread HIS word and Lucifer to punish the ones who didn't listen, good and evil right?, no because Lucifer Morningstar is GOD favorite and the savior while Gabriel destroys entire cities and kill little childrens, is Gabriel the one who will bring the final destruction over the mankind when he blows his horns, while Lucifer is righteous, even Jesus Christ stated "I am the new Morningstar", the redemption. Again, good and evil are abstract concepts and don't exist on their own but in a mix, a battle of wills, the Ying and Yang. Therefore i don't see why can't be jedi to bring unbalace to the force and Anakin the Sith Chosen One who level things out, it's good versus evil but two diffderent aspects that cannot live without the other but at the same time they need to be in the right proportion.

One side note, i don't take the SW dialogues in the Literal way but always try to see them as the whole, always looking at the full story, because SW is inconsitant as hell (Anakin was introduced as the one who will save the Tattoine slaves remenber? not to talk about Luke and Leia Romance until escaping Hoth just to discover later that Leia was maddly in love by Han and Luke was her twin).

As you said "As it says in the opening scroll of ROTS, Evil is everywhere. This then infects people across the galaxy and this induces them into adding more darkness to the energy that is the Force", would the exact same words could be said if there were no Sith or enough Evil in the Galaxy? What would happen if only the good use of the force prevail? Remember one episode of the Simpsons were Death called in sick, what a world we would had if there's no death? Is possible we have to much good? YES.

As for Vader, you stated "First of all Darth Vader turned evil because of his own greed and selfish desires", if this was true and Darth Vader was the ultimate evil guy i think his logical move would be to kill Plapatine and rule the galaxy, achieving the power he would seek, but instead Vader just kept playing the dumb servant of Palpatine, i know there's a line in ROTJ when Vader asks Luke to rule the galaxy with him but there's nothing more on the entire franchise that shows us that Vader wanted power.

I keep saying that it's a shame Star Wars tried to chew more than what they could bite, i love Star Wars i think they are amazing movies but George Lucas should kept it only as a good movie instead of trying to be more than that, because Star Wars isn't Dune, and Dune works very well in that psichologycal drama and grand order of things connections while the action in Dune is just lame and ridiculous when compared to the pace and action of Star Wars. And the inconsistency of the big ideas and options on Star Wars is what really kills the fun for me, a character is described to be one thing and in the next 30 minutes he will became something completely different.

I consider TFA a much better development in that level, mainly because is a tight movie that don't try to be much more than a good movie. In TFA seems that George huge mistakes dealing with the force, again the ghost and the force generated childs, are left waaaaaay out of the picture, and it's also safe to state that in TFA the Good and Evil duality is at least blurred but lets us wait to check on that, because Luke and Snoke need to show more but that seems the way to go with Kylo Ren and even the rage bursts of Rey.

Edit:
BTW i really like your Status Message, Darth Platipus.