How do you interpret the prophecy of the chosen one

A lot to take in there but my immediate reaction is this:
The energy created by those with the propensity to make moral choices, e.g. sentient beings - is what creates the good and the bad sides of the Force. An animal for example, with no moral purpose, won't create more or less evil. That is the grey area of the Force. (Having said that, the way people treat animals has a bearing on the Force because of their actions. So a lion eating a lamb isn't evil. But a man killing a lion or a lamb is as they are harming a life form, for no good reason and their own benefit, which means they are likely using greed, anger, hate or whatever).

If good and evil are mixed things become blurred - there is nothing between good and evil, everything is grey. In each of us we have balanced these emotions, and in the Star Wars saga the most important point is balance, balance between everything. It is dangerous to lose this. In The Phantom Menace one of the Jedi Council already knows the balance of The Force is starting to slip, and will slip further. It is obvious to this person that The Sith are going to destroy this balance. On the other hand a prediction which is referred to states someone will replace the balance in the future. At the right time a balance may again be created, but presently it is being eroded by dark forces. All of this shall be explained in Episode 2, so I can't say any more!
- CUT interview 09/07/99?

But yes, we all have the propensity to do good or evil. The discipline of being a Jedi is in recognising your own dark side and overcoming it. The discipline of being a Sith is in using that which feeds your dark side.

This is where we differ. Again I think you are putting all the onus on the Jedi and Sith. These two factions don't create the Force. They are not the Force themselves. They simply use it. The imbalance is down to the energy created by all living things. It's how that life is impacted that makes the difference. If the majority of life in the galaxy is oppressed, fearful and suffering then this is what impacts upon the Force because the Force is the collective consciousness of the galaxy.

Again, this relates to what I said above. The balance of the Force isn't to do with the total Force power capabilities of the Sith vs Jedi. It's about the state of the beings in the galaxy that create the Force itself.

But this is what I spoke about in my other post.
The Jedi aren't spreading good, compassion and love across the galaxy whilst utterly destroying hate, anger, aggression etc. They are keepers of the peace. They follow the will of the Force. And they put out fires to prevent the Force going out of balance. The Sith are the ones actively spreading evil across the galaxy and thus impacting upon everything and everyone.

Again, referring to my last post - No Sith does not = no evil in the universe. It simply means that the Sith are not empowering evil over good. Without the Sith, good and evil are balanced. Indeed, evil is needed for there to be good. But that is the natural balance of things. The Sith disrupt this by spreading darkness everywhere. Causing despair as Lor San Tekka puts it. The Jedi DO NOT ERADICATED ALL EVIL. They prevent evil from taking over. That is where the balance lies.

Because he wasn't powerful enough to beat Palpatine after he became man in suit. As we see in ROTJ, Palps just fries him. Instead, Vader seeks an apprentice to defeat the Emperor and then rule himself.

Is the Force itself though not what makes Star Wars a mythology rather than just a sci-fi action flick? And what would Star Wars be without The Force?

I'm whoever Lawrence Kasdan wants me to be...but essentially I am Darth Plagueis...I mean Snoke!

 

@master_shaitan as i'm figuring your ideas out: (best way to understand anything is exemplifying)

- The Force is the water on a lake, produced or surronded by everything that exists
- In their natural state the water remains balanced
- All living beings are neutral and live in the water
- Sith represent the evil, but they shake the water
- Jedi mean the good, they battle the sith to keep the water still/balanced/neutral

First off, as for Vader i keep saying he is just "working for the man", history is filled with lesser charcacters dealing with much more powerfull ones, it's just a case of motivation, considr just the wild west: John Wesley Hardin, Billy the Kid, Jesse James, Will Bill Hicock, King Fischer, Ben Thompson and many many more superb gunslingers shoot down by way inferior ones.

But to the matter of the Force, it's hard to consider individuals, single handed or in groups, being able to turn or influence really big things, not every single ground connection unbalance Earth's electrical neutrality. How could one being actions change the whole force power grid? Are we getting into a scale situation, were you determine that you need at least 50000 billions to shift the waters? And does the actions stack up? for how long?

In absolute terms of morality we have:
- Doing Bad - Knowing it - Regret doing bad - NO EVIL
- Doing Bad - Knowing it - Don't Regret doing it - EVIL
- Doing Bad - Not Knowing it - NO EVIL

Im this case if someones do a bad thing the waters shift but he regrets it afterwards the waters by a miracle calm down.

Lor San Tekka stated the Sith caused Despair but Kylo Ren stated the Rebels were a group of liars and criminals, therefore as they say the beautty is in the eyes of beholder.

Hunting is a vital part of life, maybe humans or animals hunting it's the same, is a process to live, hunting will only be a bad thing if something hunt without the need to feed and/or cause excessive harm on the prey, but for instance Lions and other big cats go out of their just to kill their rivals but that's not evil they're killing all the hyenas they could find to prevent the hyenas to eat or harm their families and not with the lust of kill. But i know certain animals to be just bad, the ones that attack persons and animals without reason or devastate others with extreme violence, so animals can be mainly bad also.

I really believe that what makes a person good or bad is the amont of good/evil deeds they can do, on the same thing i consider what makes a bad deed is the Conscienceness of the individual. How could you change states of surrounding energy with a simple thought, a conscience?

The bottom line and were i guess we differ is:

- I consider the water is there, was there and will be there always no matter what, nothing will stir or change the water flow.
- No force, good or bad, can change the course of the water (it's an energy just like the cosmos that is always moving around us no matter what)
- There are good and bad beings in the water, call them Jedi or Sith it doesn't matter, they are good or bad depending on their actions on the others
- All beings in the water are good and evil, shades of grey, and the actions of them influence the actions of all the others
- I don't consider the will of the animals, the thoughts, to be determinant but only motivation, it's the actions the true gamechangers
- You can't have only good or only bad beings in the water
- But above everything the water, The FORCE, remains untouched, still there to be used by the living beings that reach into it
- The Water is not sapient, doesn't have a conscience, neither is good nor bad

 

I have to stop you there. You keep saying Jedi are the good and Sith are the bad. They are just a small part of that. The good and bad sides, light and dark, are in everyone. It's how these impact upon the galaxy that counts. Here is my analogy:

Look at the Force as a swimming pool. A fine balance of chemicals etc. Good, bad and neutral.
The Jedi maintain the pH value of the swimming pool.
The Sith come along and piss in it. They kill the Jedi. And they continue pissing in it. The swimmers (beings across the galaxy) have to swim in all this piss and are very unhappy. So they start crying and their snot goes in. And because they're scared they piss themselves too. So it's got all their unhappy snot and scared piss in it (despair).

The pH value of the pool is unbalanced. It's full of piss etc and needs cleaning.

A new swimming pool chemical guy, ha, (Jedi) comes along, kills the Sith and puts some chlorine in the pool. It balances again. Everyone is happy....until someone other guy comes along and starts pissing in the pool again.

In more simple terms, the Force is a field of energy that is a mixture of good, bad and neutral. When the Sith take over the bad energy takes over the good. The Jedi's role is to defeat the Sith and have it so the energy is equal again.

But I am guessing their adversaries couldn't shoot lightning from their fingers...

Because that is what the Sith do. They are very powerful, influential beings who will stop at nothing for galactic domination.
You ask how - well look at what the Sith do! They bring about the Clone Wars. They enslave planets. They destroy planets. They oppress, murder and spread fear everywhere. Opening scroll of ROTS - evil is everywhere. Opening scroll of ANH - Rebels are last chance for peace. Opening scroll for TFA - Luke needed to restore peace. We see what the Sith are capable of. They cause imbalance.

Really? Surely if you do bad, even regretting it later, that first act is evil?
If you do bad, but aren't aware of it, well the act itself is likely evil but I guess that depends on why you don't know it is evil.

Again, you're attributing the impact on the balance to the perpetrator alone. It is the victims that truly impact upon the balance - because there are far more of them.
The Force is an energy field created by all living things.
The actions of the Sith impact upon these people and thus their energy is what forms the Force.
And if Sidious say regretted destroying Alderaan afterwards, would that put things right? No. He's have to renounce the Dark Side and actively do good things that restore the balance to put things right.

Kylo might have that POV. Vader had that point of view when he was slaughtering younglings. Hux had that view when he destroyed a number of planets. That doesn't mean their POV is valid. It isn't. They're evil. They're in the wrong.

In my opinion it is only right it is means survival or for the good of the greater environment.

They're wild animals. They don't know any better. They're not making moral choices.

Indeed. It's not what you think, it is what you do.

Agree. I think.

Not sure I follow but ok...

Not just Jedi and Sith - countless billions more of ordinary people who both have good and evil within them.

Yep.

Yes.

Yes.

I thought you were saying the water was the Force?!

The Force isn't sentient per se. It is the collective consciousness of the galaxy. So force is both the power within this energy but also it's collective will. I guess that's the two sides of the Force - the living and the cosmic. The living is what connects everything (the will of the Force) and the cosmic is the power it becomes and can be accessed by some.

 

i HAD to quote that analogy lol

let's just say that the force willed me to

 

Here is a Lucas quote that sums up perfectly for me why the Sith cause imbalance and in fact, what balance means:

I would like to see our society mature, and become more rational and more knowledge-based, less emotion-based.
I'd like to see education play a larger role in our daily lives, have people come to a larger understanding -- a "bigger picture" understanding -- of how we fit into the world, and how we fit into the universe. Not necessarily thinking of ourselves, but thinking of others.
Whether we're going to accomplish this, I'm not sure. Obviously, people have a lot of different dreams of where America should be, and where it should fit into things. Obviously, very few of them are compatible, and very few of them are very compatible with the laws of nature.Human nature means battling constantly between being completely self-absorbed and trying to be a communal creature. Nature makes you a communal creature. The ultimate single-minded, self-centered creature is a cancer cell. And mostly, we're not made up of cancer cells.
If you put that notion on a larger scale, you have to understand that it's a very cooperative world, not only with the environment, with but our fellow human beings. If you do not cooperate, if you do not work together to keep the entire organism going, the whole thing dies, and everybody dies with it. That's a law of nature, and it's existed forever. We're one of the very few creatures that has a choice, and can intellectualize the process.
Most organisms either adapt and become part of the system, or get wiped out. The only thing we have to adapt to the system with is our brain. If we don't use it, and we don't adapt fast enough, we won't survive. -GL

That is why the cancerous Sith cause imbalance. They're not a part of the the cooperative world. They destroy the balance for their own gain.
The Jedi work with everything and everyone. They're connected through the Force by following its will. That is why Jedi do not cause imbalance.

The one negative thing about the Jedi is that they became too rigid and arrogant to deal with the Sith threat. They didn't cause imbalance by doing this but just weren't all that good at preventing it anymore.

 

@master_shaitan

Believe it or not in the end we were agreing with the same things, just like i noticed in a previous post, guess it's just a case of "Potatoes and Potatos".

Personally i won't go with GL justifications, he says one thing now and the contraire the next day, the fact is if he is saying it he just eard it elsewere.

One last thing, i really think the Jedi Order is a Segregation Glorification, a few to rule the all, and i honestly believe if the force was just available to a selected few that will definitely degenerate into an Apartheid regime with segregation betwen the force users and the non force sensitives. I think you might feel the same when saying "The one negative thing about the Jedi is that they became too rigid and arrogant to deal with the Sith threat". That's the one thing i really don't like about the Force in the SW Movies, the force users are displayed as super humans, uber man, always occupaing the dominant positions over the rest of the mortals.

Good arguing, was a pleasure...

PS - Yes, the water was the Force (actually a flow, fluid mechanics explain it)

 

Indeed, I think it's wise to take things with a pinch of salt and a lot of times he changes his view on things. But there are consistent comments he makes and I think there is value in them. Just requires a "use with caution" sign on them.

I think the MAIN issue with the Jedi was that they operated, quite literally, from their ivory tower. They became too focused on the cosmic force rather than the living Force. They became distracted, complacent and arrogant. This prevented them from ever catching up with Sidious and co. The problem was that the majority of the Jedi were beings who existed after the Sith went into hiding. They were essentially born into a privileged position where they had never really faced the Dark Side. Then because of this and because the dark side clouds everything, they were caught short and quite easily dispatched by Sidious in the end.

Likewise. I think I will stick with my "pissing in the pool" analogy. It's more on my level and I can relate to it...

 

Please fell free to piss on any place you want as long it doesn't bother anyone else......

(spot on the GL comments - always use it with caution)

In the end - Jedi Order - (epic failure)

 

These are the celestials (the ones), the one in the middle is the father. He represents balance, the other two are dark and light respectively.

 

Palpatine got into power by:

Getting the TF to invade Naboo where many people suffered a died.

He then started the clone wars to get emergency powers. A war that resulted in millions of deaths.

He then had all the Jedi killed, became Emperor and got rid of democracy.

During his reign he created a super weapon that blew up a planet. He ruled with fear and enslaved and murdered billions.

I'm pretty sure, regardless of what bs he tried to peddle, Palpatine was evil. No redeeming features as Ian McDiarmid would say.

And that goes for all the Sith and their point of views. When they turn to the dark side they are acting out of greed and lust for power. This makes their actions inherently evil.

I'm also pretty certain the general public of the Galaxy weren't happy under Empire rule. Christ, just look at what they do to folk on Tatooine and Alderaan and how people react when they're about to take over Bespin!

 

You mean that planet destroying weapon that the Empire were going to use to make sure that they would remain in power forever - oppressing and enslaving worlds and people? That they used once to blow up a planet and were about to do the same again - and likely again and again?

Are you suggesting the Rebel's were evil for destroying that?!

 

Enlighten me...

 

Ummm, which of those quotes contradict each other exactly?

 

So you won't tell me which of my points are contradictory?

I'll say it one more time, please read carefully.
Balance is disrupted when there is TOO MUCH EVIL.
Balance is normal when GOOD AND EVIL ARE EQUAL.
The Sith are the ones capable of spreading evil everywhere and thus PUT THE FORCE INTO DARKNESS.
The prophesy says a chosen one will bring balance and THE JEDI BELIEVE THIS MEANS HE WILL DESTROY THE SITH.
Anakin fails at first and turns bad, THE JEDI THINK HE HAS FAILED.
Then Anakin returns and kills the Sith BRINGING BALANCE TO THE FORCE PROVING THE JEDI WERE RIGHT AFTER ALL.

BUT GOOD AND EVIL STILL EXISTS.
It's just that BALANCE IS WHEN GOOD AND EVIL ARE EQUAL.

The balance does constantly shift somewhat but not for long when the Jedi are on top of it.
But when the Jedi fall, such as in ROTS and before TFA THE BAD GUYS (Sith or other Dark Side group) CAN THEN SPREAD EVIL EVERYWHERE, PUTTING THE FORCE OUT OF BALANCE.

Lor San Tekka's comments they are continuing the balance story in the same vein as Lucas.
No Jedi = baddies take over and spread despair. Jedi needed to come back, beat the baddies and restore balance.