SPECULATION Is Luke Rey's Father? - The Evidence For and Against

this is all very interesting. there's definitely a disconnect between what's described in the book and what we're shown in the film regarding the forceback.
and i think that's why it's become so tantalizing in terms of trying to pick apart clues.
we also know Abrams reshot bits from that sequence because Johnson wanted changes for whatever he's got set up.
could be as simple as having changed the snow location in favor of a stormy one.
or omitting obvious clues like the gender of the "sweetheart" speaker, who we now know is intended to be male.

i'm not sure what to think of any of this because it's pretty messy.
i still no longer believe Ben and Rey ever knew one another except in dreams.
but it's interesting too that Rey never sees the person who tries to comfort her
(and in the book it's an explicit point that she can't see them ~ as if, perhaps they are a disembodied voice that she does not understand).

what is this battle? who are the clan? are the events sequential?
is the dream about the lightsaber or is it about Rey's connection to Ren?
or both: just her overall destiny.

 

Here's my transcript of the relevant bits from Hamill's sit down chat with the Oxford Union.

Mark Hamill at the Oxford Union (March 2, 2016)

Mark Hamill: (13m13s) "You can get a lot of where they're going from Episode VII from the sense that it's really about a new generation of heroes and villains. And that we're relegated more to the roles that, say, Sir Alec or Peter Cushing or any of the other subsidiary characters played. It's not my story anymore. We had a beginning, middle, and an end. Now what's interesting is that there is so much back history that Luke has gone through - even if they're not gonna tell it in the story proper - I have to know it for myself what I've been up to. And so there's been a lot of discussion with Rian Johnson - who is the new writer and director of VIII. Because really with VII, you know, he had a lot on his plate. He had to establish a whole new world, a whole new conflict, all these new characters, since Han Solo was going to meet a certain fate."


The Force Awakens Table Read (April 29, 2014)

Mark Hamill: (30m30s) "No [I didn't look at Daisy Ridley and think she looks like me], you clever minx. I might become disoriented and start spilling spoilers left and right. <gestures> First of all when I read, I said, 'Wait a second. Why am I gonna fly 6000 miles for a table listen?' You know, come on. Call me, 'Luke Cliffhanger'. But I said, 'Oh, I get it,' because if I don't show up to the table read, that'll become a story in and of itself. I better show up, right? And every person had a specific place to sit - it's not like we just wandered in and just sat down. <gestures> 'You sit here. You sit here. You sit here. You sit here,' and so forth. So I was across from 'Carrison' and 'Harrie'. And Daisy was right in between them. <gestures> And I thought - see now they start reading things into it, because when they saw the photograph they said, 'Well, she's gotta be the daughter of Han and Leia 'cause look at where she's sitting.' And I was sitting next to Anthony Daniels - who's C-3PO - umm but uhh... what was the question?"

Mark Hamill: (32m23s) "Well, no [I didn't look at Daisy Ridley and think she looks like me.] I didn't really... that didn't really enter into it. I mean, I'd read the script by that point. And it's clear that they don't really want you to know what her [character's] background is or where she came from. <gestures> I saw the parallels. I thought, well she's living in the desert sort of aimlessly and I saw the parallels with my character and so forth. But, um... and heritage is so important in the Star Wars films, you know. I mean we didn't realize it at the time, the wole thing that Vader's the father and so forth. And when Return of the Jedi came along - 'cause George always made it seem like he had all of these mapped out in his head - and then when I read that Leia and I were long separated twins, I said, 'ain't no way - wait a minute. Is he trying to top Vader? That he's dad Vader? I mean, come on.' 'Cause I thought, if anything, let's go for broke - let's have them unmask Boba Fett and it's my long lost mother, you know, who is working for the Resistance as a double agent. It's hard to top Vader-is-the-father - that's the all-time twist ending of them all. So we sort of thought, 'did he tack that on?' I mean we couldn't really figure that out."

Mark Hamill: (34m55s) "But no, I didn't think so much that - I just thought that Daisy was incredible. She's so genuine, so appealing, you know, she's just lovable. She's just luminous, I mean, she just beams. She's just got a wonderful, wonderful charisma about her and I just adore her. She's roughly my daughter's age and that's how I relate to her. Even though - wait a minute! <gestures> Oh I knew you smarties would drag it out of me! No, I don't mean anything by that. I mean as actors that's how I relate to her. <wink>"

Mark Hamill: (1h1m30s) "I just read online - I don't know if it's true, I didn't hear it come out of his mouth - that JJ is very much open to that idea [of including gay characters]. You know, I mean, the internet is a very interesting experience for me because in the old days you would get fan mail and you'd sign as much as you can [...] But now it's like the fans come right into your house and they ask you all these questions: 'I'm getting bullied at school, I'm afraid to come out because my parents are religious and they'll hate me,' and so forth. It just breaks your heart. And they would say to me, you know, 'Could Luke be gay?' And I would say, you know, it's meant to be interpreted by you. If you think he's gay, of course he's gay. If you think he's straight, that's also - anything you want is real. You shouldn't be ashamed of it. Judge Luke by his character, not by who he loves. It seems to me that the trauma of discovering that the only girl you had a big crush on is your sister - you know we all have a big laugh about that but if you're in character that is a traumatic experience. And there's not in the original trilogy - there weren't a lot of options - about the only eligible young woman in the whole universe. They're fantasies meant for children. Children of all ages of course but because they are that they aren't meant to address adult sexuality specifically."

 

No other girl to love, eh? If that extends to the ST, then........

 

go back to your movies especially the Empire Strikes back only one person is using the term Sweetheart and it is Han it is a clue... (at first I thought this scene was two adults talking but it is not)
there is not a lot I am sure of but i am 110% lol sure the vision of the voices are him and her --not sure they knew each other long but i suspect she got under his skin quickly that is him talking to her and the battle in the distance in the snow forest is where the academy was now this is only speculation i suspect not many students and who knows the students could have turned with him and that is our knights of ren --- or it could be something like Luke let him go for a visit to his mom and while there hooked up with Snoke and Snoke found out about the location of the academy and they planned to raid and burn it . Suspect Ben had been with Luke for about 6 years at this point. or Snoke found out he had a Padwan and Ben told him who she was and the raiding of the academy was to get her. Hidden agenda. Snoke had to know what Luke was doing why not burn it sooner? Ben thought he was planning with Snoke and Snoke wanted something else. One thing is still clear Ben was not acting alone. as the fighting was going on in the distance when he was hiding her. In the Book at the end he knows it is her. So yes they had to have had a prior connection which is another reason why he offered to train her. Even though he was wounded in the final battle between him and her -- he could have killed her. He had the higher ground at two points. Back to why she is not Lukes. If she was Lukes she would have been just as important as Ben. But I think she is more important than a Skywalker.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 20, 2016, Original Post Date: Mar 20, 2016 ---

Oh no the battle in the rain is not the same nor is the academy nor is it the past. Besides if you count the bodies it is way too many for the academy if luke was only one Teacher. would Ren have had is mask at that point ? becareful. the book and the movie never say he killed the students only that he destroyed it all. I am not saying he did or didnt kill any students but I find it odd that is left out of both book and movie. it is whispered he is a jedi killer in the art book but it was not part of the script . All of this is to mislead us to some extent. i suspect. However the rain scenes are of a battle and of the future in my opinion. The red sword going through the back of the warrior about to deliver a death stroke is about to Kill Rey on the battlefield and it is Ren Killing the Warrior. the sword the is red. two mysterious things are in scenes with the rain . One is at the end he has Reys lightsaber in his left hand and his sword is in his right. at one point it appears he is moving toward her quickly with sword down. Also he is leading the Knight of ren in that scene and as of the end of TFA he had never led them his training was not finished. Remember Snoke says you who are to lead the Knight of Ren ----so that scene is the future. in the book the fire is reflected on her and not the knights of ren standing in the rain. as if the burning of the academy and then the 7 disappears as if it in transition from one scene to another and after that she sees r2d2 and Lukes hand and the ashes in the aire. and then the snow scene starts. Also omitted form the movie I think is the boy trying to reach her after the cloud city duel... not sure that light down the hall way is hard to tell. but when she sees the boy is when her world turns upside down in the vision.

 

i don't know why but i have the impression you think i am disagreeing with you for some reason?
i don't think the battle scene is the destruction of the academy (don't think i ever said that).
also don't think Ben killed anybody (for the reasons you stated) ~ i think there's going to be some surprise as to how that all went down.

that said, i still don't necessarily believe Ben and Rey have ever been in physical proximity prior to TFA. i'm willing to entertain the idea that they have been Force-bonded since prior to TFA in some fashion, however, which could explain why they have seen one another in dreams/visions and could also explain the voice (possibly ~ maybe a stretch).

and no, i don't believe Rey is Luke's.

to clarify also: Kylo Ren is already Master of the Knights of Ren in TFA, so his association with the KOR is past and present. Snoke refers to him as current master, not future. where that puts the forceback vision, however, is anybody's guess. could be future, as you intimated.

 

He also says Ren's training isn't complete.

 

Ren's?

 

Oops...yes. Sorry.

 

so sorry no i thought you might have thought the rain scene was the past no i understood we were in agreement of a lot of it thanks btw

 

Theory is pretty straight forward, but since there's so little we know about the timeline most anything is possible.

Kylo may have already been the master before the Luke showdown. Maybe we've been told a different story. We haven't heard Luke's version of events. There's no Sith in TFA perhaps there's another big bad out there.

We know Rey has a vision of a hero/villain/knight being struck down by a red light saber. We know that event took place before the jedi training massacre. We also know that event has some kind of significance to the story, but we also know very little about it at this time.

 

The idea here is that Rey witnessed this event. Rey also sees Vader and Luke fighting so maybe she didn't witness it.

We know that it's a separate event than the jedi massacre (Pablo Hidalgo). We know that the jedi massacre happened sometime after Rey was left on Jakku (Pablo Hidalgo).

He's listed in the credits as a KoR, but he's listed in a hero in one of the books. At this time, someone has made a mistake in either the film credits, production, or novels.

 

ya, you have to wonder what is going on here. It is possible that he was a KOR and turned as he tried to save the village from slaughter. Perhaps, he couldn't bare himself killing for no reason.

 

hahaha ~ sure!

all depends on the timeline. when did Ben leave Luke? did the destruction happen when he left? or when did he come back? are the other students really dead?

"Jedi Killer" isn't enough for me. that's Ren's job, officially, whether he's done it or not, and it could be pure watercooler talk.
yes, Ren is capable of killing and he demonstrates that. i'm in no way saying he couldn't do it (or even didn't do it).

i'm saying until i see the bodies or someone confirms it, there's room for doubt ~ hahaha

i'm saying whatever happened may not have happened the way we assume it did because there's vagueness about it. "destroyed" can be mean killed, but it's also used to mean corrupted, ruined, turned, etc. this is just me, holding out hope for something more complex and interesting than Ren just coming back and mopping the school with its students' blood.

well...yeah. hahaha

 

i'm taking it and i'm wiggling!

i tell you, there's something not quite right about the semantics of how it's been handled.
maybe i am way off on this one, but it's been my gut feeling since first viewing the film and seeing, actually, that exact page from the VD.

#FishyEyeballedToiletSnokeisPlagueis (maybe) ~ hahaha

 

kinda depends on how many there were, too, perhaps. turning or ruining 15 students is a push. turning or ruining 3 isn't so far fetched. and yeah, maybe they're dead now. if we're spitballing, let's combine several theories into one: Ben sways the students to run off (with the KOR or Snoke or whatever), then Snoke pits them against eachother as a test or whatever. so Ren does kill them, ultimately, but in a different way.

i'm not sure i believe Luke was "away" when this all went down, but it would make sense (otherwise i believe he could have stopped it).

oh we're so off topic...oops.

#LukeDon'tGotNoKids
#ReyHasImperialBlood
#SkywalkersAreNotTheBeAllEndAllofStarWars

 

I keep thinking that if Kylo is the only new Skywalker decedent in this trilogy that this is remarkably bad marketing by Disney/LucasFilm.

There's just no reason for the Luke voice-over here. At this stage of the development they know enough about the story-line.

I don't believe Disney/LucasFilm are bad at marketing. Also, if the plan is to downplay the Skywalkers that's a very bad misdirection.