SPECULATION Luke isn't the last jedi

I wasn't disagreeing with you that Luke was the last jedi, the film openly tells us this and it makes perfect sense in the context of the story. This is where I was disagreeing with you:

And my original point still stands. So all of this:

Is unfortunately a wasted reply.

And this was quite unnecessary and doesn't give the best impression of you as a poster.

Actually, I'm not too disappointed with the destruction of Luke's initial Jedi Temple as this grants a good mysterious backstory event to the ST which we can gradually uncover during the course of the trilogy. More importantly, it gives us the opportunity to witness the rise of the New Jedi Order during the ST which is why I take issue with people who simply want Rey to be the only jedi at the end of the trilogy.

 

I agree the jedi in the prequels were more humbled,I hope Luke learned from that but TFA has made it look like his order failed him also.

 

Exactly! The problem with the PT wasn't the overabundance of Jedi or even some of the political elements, charting the rise of Palpatine and the fall of the Republic/rise of the Empire was a good and necessary addition. The problem with the PT was the poor dialogue, poor acting(with a few exceptions), the addition of "space jesus" idea, unmemorable villains, too much childlike humour, and a gratuitous overuse of poorly rendered CGI, to name a few. The OT made it clear that there were many Jedi before the rise of the Empire so I have no idea why people have a problem with them being numerous in the PT.

This ST seems to be indicating that the story is about the re-establishment of the Jedi Order, both Snoke and Lor San Tekka make references to restoring the Jedi, so it would be a waste if we just followed Luke dying and Rey defeating Snoke and Kylo, hell maybe throw in Kylo backstabbing Snoke just so we can complete the mimicry.

Yes, its quite a common view unfortunately. It's a view normally held either by a section of Rey fans who seem to think her character is diminished by more fs characters or others who disliked the PT.

 

100% agree, you are my MVP. The jedi in PT were broing, stupid and useless.
When Qui-gon learned that Anakin is a slave, he dosent care, he desent even blink! Oh, you are a slave? Im sorry, but we jedi only deal with taxation disputes (even tho they probably have no idea about space taxation law).

And they needed a ,,chosen one" to defeat a single sith? 10.000 jedi cant even defeat a stronger sith without a fckin ,,chosen one"?! What if there were like 500 Palpatine-like sith in the galaxy, all planing to get in power... Than not even a thousand ,,chosen one" could've done anything.
I think noone will miss those useless idiots. I really hope they jedi in the ST will be nothing like their PT ancestors. They supposed to be guardians of the peace and not sleppy idiots who sit in circles talking about how clouded the force is...

 

It was my own prediction. It is not a view held in common by other fans. The quote was taken out of its original textual context. None of that is your fault. As for your post, I do think you raise a number of interesting points. I can understand your disapointment if there are not more than two Jedi, but let me explain what might come in its place and the reasoning behind it.

As for the other jedi. How much I would like to see other Jedi, I do think it will be unlikely. I merely base my view on the information given in The Force Awakens. It has nothing to do with my own preference, but with narrative logic.

First of all, the inclusion of other Jedi will seriously distort the opening crawl of Episode VII. If there are more Jedi at the time of episode VII, then the whole plot of The Force Awakens would make no sense and would be insignificant. So expect the writers to understand and anticipate this logic by portraying Luke truly as the last Jedi in VIII. It is a one way trip, they cannot alter it. Secondly, if the writers decide that Luke will train more than one Jedi it will seriously distort the focus of the narrative. That focus is on Rey, as established in The Force Awakens. It is her personal exploration of the Force and Luke's guidance that is central here. If they would include other Jedi being trained by Luke it would nullify the quintessential importance of Rey in the subsequent narrative.

In any case, how much one could wish for more Jedi, the chances for it are slim. There will be two Jedi at most, Rey and Luke. We might also anticipate that they will be very powerful, especially if they are explicitely portrayed as working and fighting together. We have never seen two "skywalker" fight together [if I might be as free as to conjecture that Rey is a Skywalker]. It will be something new and fresh, something we have never seen before and something which is clearly distinct from the full fledged jedi order in the prequels and the few independently operating Jedi in the originals. The creation of an actual new order will probably take place after IX [my prediction].

But for people who claim that the use of "the last Jedi" trope from Return of the Jedi in The Force Awakens is sheer "mimicry". I would counter that by saying that "more than one or two Jedi" is a trope from the prequels. That would also constitute "mimicry". But then of course analoguous tropes, themes and motifs are not really the same as "mimicry". Nor are they a "rehash" as some would say. Themes, tropes and motifs only work when they are redundant [ with redundant I do not mean "overflowing" but its use in literature theory, which means "returning"] . But those themes, tropes and motifs can only be effective when they are used for a different narrative purpose or when a new layer of meaning is provided to those themes, tropes and motifs.

The narrative purpose of the "last jedi" trope in sequel trilogy has a different structural purpose when compared to the use of the same trope in the original trilogy:
a. It signifies Luke's failure and explains his absence. "Again" Luke is the last Jedi. He failed. The first order and the darkside have returned in strength. He sees himself as the main cause of that problem so he eliminates his own influence and agency over events by means of exile. In the original trilogy Luke became the last Jedi because of external circumstances. He had no influence over the death of the Jedi order, nor had he a direct role in the deaths of Yoda and Obi Wan.

b. It explains the importance of Luke's return. Only when Luke returns can the Jedi order rise from its ashes. Rey will be upheld as the first apprentice in that new Jedi order. In the third act of return of the Jedi, Luke can only be a Jedi if he confronts Vader and the emperor. Previously I stated that Luke was the last Jedi only for 70 minutes in Return of the Jedi. In many ways I was wrong now that I've reviewed the evidence. Luke only is the last Jedi for 9 minutes. He is a Jedi from the moment Darth Vader throws the emperor down the shaft. The Force Awakens inverts the 'last jedi' theme. In A New Hope there were still a few Jedi around, but their numbers dwindled throughout ANH, ESB and ROTJ. In the Force Awakens, there is only one Jedi left at the beginning, but here the premise is that with the Last Jedi's return their numbers will rise (Rey, Ben Solo's possible redemption). It is an inversion. A subtle one. At the end of the story of ROTJ there was one Jedi left. In TFA there is one jedi left at the beginning of the story, but there is also the anticipation that there are more yet to come (the revelation of Rey as a force user).

effect: we will see Luke's creation of a new Jedi order which begins with Rey as his first apprentice. The story mirrors for the audience a story which the audience did not really have the opportunity to see because of the present age of the actors playing Luke, Leia and Han. There is a 30 year gap between ROTJ and TFA. In that gap Luke presumably trained a new Jedi order. We could never have seen that gap on screen because the actors are simply too old to play in a story which takes place in that 30 year gap. So what the force awakens does is more or less mirror the status quo at the end of Return of the Jedi. In doing so, we will finally be able to see on screen Luke's attempt at rebuilding the Jedi, but now with a narrative structure that is more attuned to the actual age of the legacy actors, Han and Leia, but most importantly Luke. It also explains why they ditched the original post-return of the jedi EU because it would interfere and distort this narrative intervention.

 

That depends upon what you think the narrative focus of the ST is about. I believe it's primary focus is the re-establishment of the Jedi Order, and I realise I am in the minority here, while others believe that Rey is the entire focus. In my mind the story of the ST=founding of New Jedi Order and Rey=one of the main characters in that story.

I don't think anyone is disagreeing with the premise that Luke is the last Jedi as of TFA, I'm certainly not.

This is where my disagreement with you lies. I'm not denying that Rey is a large focus of the ST but I'm arguing that having Rey as the sole Jedi after Luke's death nullifies the story arc of Luke in the OT as it essentially leaves Rey to found the NJO in Luke's place. The plot progression of the whole saga would have essentially stalled for this trilogy: ROTJ ends with Luke as the sole jedi with the task of re-establishing the Jedi Order and Ep. IX will end with Rey as the sole Jedi with the task of re-establishing the Jedi Order. Luke's not aiming to recreate the Rule of Two here, at least I hope not.

I'm reluctant to admit it but I'm afraid its more likely that they won't add more potential Jedi to the roster during the ST. Mostly due to how afraid of the PT they are and how much safer it is to stick to the OT formula.

This right here is the "trope" that I am taking issue with. Both the prequels and to a lesser extent the OT followed this formula already with the Master + apprentice fighting duo which isn't a problem in and of itself if we didn't take the context of the ST into account. Snoke fears the resurrection of the Jedi hence why he seduced Ben into destroying Luke's first attempt and why he is still hunting for Luke at the start of TFA. This isn't because Luke is strong, which he probably is, or that he might train Rey, who is but one person, but because he is the seed from which the NJO will sprout, not a single apprentice.

Furthermore, we are not even sure that Luke will fight that much throughout the ST as quite a few people are convinced that he will tutor Rey and then promptly die off in some dramatic fashion having fulfilled his goal of teaching Rey. The problem all lies at how many people are obsessed with Rey's plot importance, yes Rey is important to the Plot but she is not the Plot.

I've also allowed for this eventuality but to me that means that this entire trilogy will have been wasted. To me the ST is about convincing Luke to try again and seeing the seeds of the NJO. After ep.IX they might be properly established but in Eps.VII-IX the NJO should have been created.

You know you can just say you're referring to me right? Rather than referring to terms that I have used and vaguely alluding to me. Anyway, the "trope" or whatever terminology you would like to use I'm referring to is the mentor, Luke in this situation, teaching the hero/heroine, Rey is this situation, and then shuffling off his mortal coil leaving us exactly where we ended ROTJ but with a woman, Rey, instead of a man, Luke. For me it is Luke's task to restore the JO and no one else, certainly not Rey's who will no doubt be Luke's best pupil but not his only pupil.

Entirely agree with this but then again this wasn't my point of contention.

Again, I agree with this but not if Rey is the only pupil of this trilogy. Not to say that I want Luke leading Jedi aerobic classes with 20 people during the trilogy but I feel the re-establishment of the NJO would mean so much more to the audience of we could see some of the first figures who would be apart of its founding and leading it in the early years. Therefore I think introducing other force sensitive characters, Finn among them, over the course of the ST would be beneficial in this aspect.

Never disagreed that Luke was the last Jedi nor that this was a needlessly repetitive.

Once again, I agree with this but you are limiting the number of Jedi rising in this ST solely to relatives of Luke, if we assume Rey is, doesn't fit with the story's aim of re-establishing the Jedi Order, if we both agree with this concept. Otherwise this is just another family feud.

Exactly, how I see it but disagreeing on Rey being the only one of this trilogy, especially if she is related to Luke. The "rehash" I'm referring to is Luke playing the Yoda/Obi-Wan role to Rey's Luke and the story ending upon the same principles.

Agree with all of this.

Just to make sure that we're not missing each others points, the issue I have is not with Luke being the "Last Jedi" or his first JO being destroyed, which brings both an interesting backstory and allows us to see the rise of the NJO in this trilogy, but with how we leave Rey at the end of the ST: Luke dead and her as the "Last Jedi". For me this trilogy is a continuation of Luke's story just like the PT and OT were actually about Anakin with Luke being a protagonist in the latter so too will the OT and the ST be the story of Luke with Rey being the protagonist.

 

The thought had occurred to me that, if Luke turns out to be Rey's father, that perhaps her mother was a Jedi or at least FS (perhaps one of Luke's students)?

I could see Luke founding a NJO, using the knowledge that he's gathered on his travels, with Rey as his #2/eventual successor.

 

I was replying to Kira Solo's post not yours. I was explaining the motives behind the current narrative arc of the sequels as a response to her concern about the limited number of Jedi in the new trilogy. I was not offering value judgements but was offering some alternate predictions. It is best to quote my post in full and not pick snippets out of it. The post did not communicate with you in person.

This one does. As for Luke's training of Rey and the reasoning behind it and how this ties into Luke's build up of a new Jedi Order, I refer you to the last paragraph of my post. It is actually the opposite of what you suggest. The build-up of the story and the function of Luke in it does not diminish his role, it actually strenghtens it. We can never see on screen Luke's first attempt at creating the new Jedi order. Mark Hamill is too old, he can never again play a Luke in his late twenties. They cannot pick up the story after Return of the Jedi. This presented the writers with a problem. They wanted to pick up the story where Return of the Jedi ended, but the main characters were too old to pull this off succesfully. By emplotting the story device that Luke's first Jedi order was a failure (the 30 year gap we can never see on screen ), the writers created the opportunity to actually show on screen how Luke builds a new Jedi order in such a way that it fits a character who is 30 years older then when we last met him. It places him at the centre and makes him more important than being just a failure. It even makes him more important than Obi Wan and Yoda. The latter two only gained additional importance when we learned their backstory from the prequels. When we only had the originals, Obi Wan and Yoda were just mentors, the first with a vague link to Vader. We are yet to see what kind of a tutor Luke is and how his character has developed over the course of those 30 years. But Luke's character is not framed in such a way as to make him the main protagonist. Nor in such a way that he overshadows the new generation. The main protagonist is provided by a new generation: Rey, and her main antagonist: Kylo Ren. We also don't know if the relation between Luke and Rey will be similar to for example Qui Gon and Obi Wan, Obi Wan and Anakin, Luke and Obi Wan, or Luke and Yoda.

My impression is that you really want to see Luke being succesful and also central to the build up of a new Jedi Order. That you will get in the sequels. If you would also rather wish that Luke is the main protagonist in the sequels you can prepare yourself for some serious disappointment. He is not the main protagonist, it is his story as well, but not primarily. This is the story of Rey and Kylo Ren. I'm absolutely fine with how the sequel story is set up. I want Luke to be important, of course. More important than Obi Wan and Yoda were to Luke? Naturally. Do I want him to be the main protagonist? No, I want him to be important in a supportive way. His main story quest has already been completed: redeeming vader and becoming a Jedi.

 

My apologies but seeing as your reply to Kira Solo dealt with your general view on the number of Jedi and Luke and Rey's role in the ST I thought it perfectly apt to debate some of your points, many of which you repeat during this post directed towards me:

With all due respect and with a modicum of bluntness, this paragraph makes it seem like you either haven't understood my previous posts or read them at all. To risk repeating myself, I have no problem with the failure of Luke's first Jedi Order and the fact that Luke is the only/last Jedi at the start of TFA. Like you say it allows us to see Luke building the NJO during the ST with a good explanation as to why it has taken him 30 years to do so and provides mysterious event that we will uncover during the course of the ST.

I never said I wanted Luke to be the main protagonist, that is clearly Rey and Finn if we are to believe Abrams, but I do want him to complete what I see as the last task he was given in the OT, the re-founding of the Jedi Order. And to me the re-founding of the Jedi Order does not equal training just Rey and then passing away which was what I was criticising in my first reply to you.

Like I said above, of course I don't expect Luke to be the main protagonist but I don't expect him to be shunted aside because they fear Rey might be overshadowed. Rey is important to the plot but she is not the plot, no character is. Far from wanting Luke to become the protagonist I would actually like Finn to be given his due but that's for other threads. To me Luke's main story quest isn't complete: namely founding the Jedi Order.

 

Again you cut up my post. That is a very unfair way of representing my argument. To any others reading this please read my complete argument above.

First of all, not everything in that post is referential to your argument. Most of it is referential to my own critical reflection on the writing logic of The Force Awakens. Second, your last paragraph in the above post is important because it explains why we are arguing about two different things. I am explaining the decisions and choices of the authors and how these are opposed not to your opinion or judgement but to your interpretation of these choices: i.e. the reasoning why they were made by the authors. You are arguing from what you would like to see, I am arguing from what I am seeing now in The Force Awakens and from the things that I perceive in the logic by which its story operates. I reflect upon what I see, you reflect upon what you want to see. I'm okay with that, but don't misrepresent my argument.

On the following matter we do disagree. For instance you believe that Luke's main story quest isn't complete: namely, the creation of a new Jedi Order. To me that was not Luke's story quest in the first place: in the original trilogy, it was Luke's quest to become a Jedi and redeem his father. Lucas has emphasized this again and again. That he would built a New Order was a prediction and a concept Lucas had for the sequels. You want that quest to have continued importance in the sequel trilogy. I can understand. But to claim that this was Luke's main quest in the originals is a false retrojection. I suggested that it would have importance in the sequels, but also that the quest itself is a new addition to the story. It is not something which was explicitly present in the originals. This quest of Luke's character ties in with- and is supportive of Rey's main story objective: belonging. Finn is equally supportive of Rey's objective. He is like Rey an orphan seeking belonging. But his belonging is found with the resistance and the friendship of Rey, not the Jedi teachings of Luke. That is why, for now, Luke is not important for Finn's story quest. In other words, Luke's objective/main quest to create a new Jedi order is as new to the saga (the movies) as Rey's quest for belonging. Those two only work in close tandem. In the sequel trilogy the two are two sides of the same coin.

 

I've been following this discussion and have a piece to add here I think.

It seems the basis of your disagreement is that you interpret Luke's task/destiny/quest is to establish a new Jedi order. What if that is not the case at all? For Luke, the OT was actually all about playing that vital role as the key to defeating the Emperor through the redemption of his father. Perhaps he was never meant to or fated to found a new Jedi order. Maybe that destiny lies with another?

Of course Luke, being the last Jedi after RotJ would feel that he needed to pass on the teachings of the Jedi, but perhaps he wasn't meant to try to rebuild an entire order singlehandedly. Maybe that path lies before another? And maybe it is precisely because he made the attempt that all the bad stuff happened? Maybe there is a reason why the PT Jedi only had one Palawan/Apprentice at a time?

I also don't follow how one comes to the conclusion that the ST is going to be about the establishment of a new Jedi order. It seems pretty clear after seeing TFA that the ST is going to be about a clash between the Dark Side and the Light Side again.

Feature Films about the building of the new Jedi doesn't sound that exciting to me. It sounds like it could be a very good TV series though!

One last thing that I want to mention is the whole recurring argument that you and many others use about subsequent plot points diminishing previous events in the story. Taking this sort of argument to its full conclusion, the only way to not diminish the achievements of Luke or the sacrifice and redemption of Anakin is to have everyone live happily ever after in the GFFA forever and ever. Any reemergence of evil or dramatic conflict will OF COURSE in some way diminish the lasting effects of what has gone before - however it can never make them less powerful or poignant as they were at the time of their occurrence. If one wants to preserve the weight and significance of the OT to 100%, then one cannot make any sequels at all, and the book has to be closed. This objection/argument is the most disingenuous (even if made ignorant of any conscious intent to be so) of any of the criticisms made of the storyline as presented in TFA.

 

Very well said. I agree completely.
As soon as they announced the ST, essentially things were diminished. The happy ROTJ ending ceased to be as happy as it was first intended.
But it doesn't change anything. Anakin brought balance to the Force. It's just gone out of balance again.
And that is the new challenge - it's not about just bringing balance. It's about keeping it and making things better.

I also think your observation about Luke trying to do too much could be spot on. He probably felt the burden was on him to reestablish the Jedi Order and in taking on too much, overlooked what was happening with Kylo. It's an interesting angle.

 

How do you know it's gone out of balance ?

 

1. LST essentially says it has.
2. The KOR and Snoke are spreading evil and "despair" across the galaxy.
3. There is an awakening suggesting the Force is actively doing something to restore the balance.
4. There would be no story if the Force wasn't out of balance.
5. If the Force wasn't out of balance, it would contradict the other movies.

 

If there was no "force" in SW EVER, would it still be SW ?

 

Not sure I fully understand your question but just to be clear my end:
I am saying that if the Force isn't out of balance then there isn't a threat to the galaxy THUS there wouldn't be a story.
But we see there is a threat. Evil is running amok. Thus the Force is out of balance and we have a story to tell!

 

I get you but what in trying to say is that you're saying hat with the force in balance, there is no story but is as bringing about the option of there being s story without he force even being involved .

 

"That's not how the Force works!".

If evil is on the rampage in the Star Wars Universe then the Force is out of balance. You can't have one without the other.
You can't separate the Force from the events that occur in that Universe. Life creates the Force after all.

And even if you could, it would mean this new trilogy is on a much lower scale and is of much less importance than what has happened before.