SPECULATION Luke isn't the last jedi

The force is formed of midi chlorides all over our bodies and makes uonthenlivjng universe .

 

No, the Force is the energy created by all living things.
The Midichlorians are the microscopic lifeforms that live within our cells that enable us to communicate with the Force.

 

That's what I meant .

 

So what was your point?!

 

"MAKES-IP-THE-LIVING-UNIVERSE" bruh .

 

See that face I'm making...that means I'm confusing all of us .

 

That would really diminish the story.
Luke HAS TO be the last Jedi else it makes Snoke look stupid and there isn't this great threat of the Jedi's being wiped out if Luke dies.
I think all the spin off stuff has clouded this but really, Luke is the last Jedi in ROTJ. Yoda tells him so and implores him to pass on his knowledge.
Luke is so important because he is the last Jedi. If he dies, the Jedi die.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 24, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 24, 2016 ---

 

#PalpatineLives

 

Don't you mean "Plageuis" ?

 

My point is that they wouldn't script it this way. JJ and co aren't ever going to say that Luke isn't the last Jedi, that there are others hanging out somewhere. Obviously Luke being the last Jedi is being made into a massive part of the ST. The whole events of TFA are about Snoke and Kylo trying to kill Luke as he is the last Jedi and represents the only threat to their domination. If there are other Jedi knocking about then it takes away that dramatic tension.

He's called the last Jedi in the opening scroll.

LST implies there are no other Jedi outside of Luke.

Snoke calls him the last Jedi.

I think it's safe to assume he is.

 

Again I offer my apologies, both for cutting up your previous posts and this one. I break replies into sections because it is the best way of organising arguments point for point both for myself and for others viewing the discussion. Otherwise, we will be throwing large intimidating blocks of words at each other.

Hm, aren't you merely quibbling on terminology? Almost everything I post, and others for that matter, on this forum is a matter of opinion and/or interpretation, as is fitting for a forum dedicated towards speculating and discussing theories about Ep.VIII. By claiming that you are only arguing from what you see you are either claiming that you are making no predictions, which patently you have, or that your interpretation is based upon fact and not your own inherent bias, as mine is. This is quite a disingenuous argument.

Of course rebuilding the NJO wasn't Luke's objective in the original trilogy. At that point in time there were no concrete plans for sequels or prequels for the rest of the Star Wars franchise, vague ideas and murmurings but no solid plans. I also never claimed the founding of the NJO was Luke's quest in the OT, that would surely be the goal after the end of the OT. Furthermore, throughout our discussion I have repeatedly emphasised that this is my opinion, all of my posts are my opinions, and never have I claimed that Luke's quest to found the NJO is some sort of fact but merely my interpretation of TFA. During said film, a few characters hinted that the return of the Jedi as an organisation might be part of the development of the ST: Lor San Tekka said that there could be no balance in the force with the Jedi(the not a) and Snoke hunts Luke so as to prevent him doing so, if only I could remember the exact wording.

At last we have reached disagreement at the source of our discussion which can simply be summarised as to the role that Rey plays in the ST. Is the return of the jedi, forgive the pun, a coincidental story to Rey's or is it an overarching plot element? Obviously I hold to the latter and you to the former with little chance of either us convincing the other as it is a matter of gradient. I hope you'll forgive me for not addressing the Finn part as I am quite fatigued from arguing about Finn's future role in the rest of the trilogy in other threads and at the moment cannot bring myself to rehearse them.

Of course this is a possibility, as I said in my reply above, all of my posts about Luke here, and other threads on other topics, are my speculation and interpretation of how the ST will progress. So all I can say is that what you say is entirely possible but that I would be disappointed if that was the case because for me that would be illogical and repetitive.

Illogical because as of this moment Luke is the most knowledgeable and experienced, and sole, Jedi in the galaxy so who would be better placed to found and lead the reborn Jedi Order? Let's assume the "another" you refer to is Rey who will likely be fully trained by the end of the trilogy but still no where near as experienced as Luke at the start of TFA. Could she help him do it? Almost certainly, I would be shocked if she didn't, like others have said I expect her to be Luke's right hand woman/likely successor. However, you could argue that she could gain enough experience between ep.IX and X (if they intend to do a X) to make her worthy to found the JO but that brings me to my second point.

Repetitive because if Luke and Rey went around as a Master and Padawan (I prefer the term "apprentice" myself) combating the First Order/KoR/Snoke/Kylo and it ends with them victorious but Luke dead, no doubt heroically/sacrificially, then we are left in exactly the name situation as we were in ROTJ. The only exception would be that we have swapped Luke for Rey. Now perhaps some, maybe most of you would like that, but this is not my personnel preference (I feel as though I must emphasise this).

I never implied that Luke would rebuild the Order singlehandedly, indeed to build the JO would by its very nature require more than one person. Do I see Luke as the first Grand Master, one of the core founders, the Washington of the founding fathers/mothers of the JO? Absolutely but does not mean he will do it alone only that he is in charge, so to speak. Again, when you say "another" do you mean Rey? Do you think Luke wasn't meant to found the JO alone but Rey was? It seems that, like with Ammianus, you and I disagree with what role Rey will play in the ST and how that impacts Luke's role.

Naturally, the ST is going to be about a clash between Dark Side and the Light side, all of the Star Wars films are ultimately about that, but what are the nuances/the variances at play during each film? Each trilogy? Would you agree that the PT charted the fall of the Republic/Jedi Order and Anakin's seduction to the dark side? Would you also agree that the OT charted the fall of the Empire and the redemption of Anakin?(although this one is less obvious because the OT were less planned out than the PT) So what is the ST charting? The fall of the NR? The rise of the FO? The early challenges of the NR and the JO? I think it will be the last but again, this is my opinion. I'm sure this will go alongside the drama of Snoke and Luke and Kylo and Rey but I'm taking about the backdrop to these soap drama elements.

Haha, I'm not sure a TV series is what I had in mind but theoretically it could work like that: Disney probably wouldn't miss a chance for another interesting and lucrative avenue of a tv series set during or after the ST. However, I wasn't arguing that the ST follow Luke recruiting force sensitives, like Magneto and Xavier in X-men First Class, merely that it would sow the seeds for what we would see become the NJO. From a storytelling point of view it would make the audience more invested in the NJO, if we agree that it eventually does come about, if they saw the nascent members, the disciples or founding fathers, during the course of this current trilogy. Now obviously they don't have to steal a great part of the story, I know people guard Rey's force plot jealously, but it could still be an interesting way of introducing the apprentices of the NJO.

I'm not quite sure why you're addressing this at me, in fact, if you'll forgive the debating jargon, you're creating a "straw man" out of me. The fact that there are sequels necessitates that s**t hit the fan otherwise there would be no struggle for our heroes to endure, no evil for them to overcome. I like that Luke's initial attempt at recreating the Jedi Order failed and that his own nephew turned against him; I like that Leia is isolated from the NR government due to her inability to let go of the war and embrace peace(even though she was right not to); I like the Han and Leia are estranged over their son's betrayal and that the former dies trying to save him. These are good and realistic interpretations of how these characters would have evolved and the flaws they would have.

What I don't like is a beat for beat recreation of the previous story that may potential happen this trilogy (note that I don't think TFA was a "rehash" it used an appropriate amount of nostalgia to drawn people back to Star Wars). Recreations like the NR being wiped out and the story following the underdog Resistance/Rebels versus the ruling First Order/Empire; Finn becoming black Han Solo; Rey becoming female Luke Skywalker; Luke becoming Yoda/Obi-Wan etc. One of these is the Luke dying and leaving Rey as the sole Jedi in the galaxy, just like ROTJ. But again this is my opinion and I'm sure other people would prefer a homage like ST.

My apologies, I will endeavour to do so in the future. Although I will offer a meagre defence by saying that I was addressing a cleverly formatted ad hominem and advising a poster against doing so.

 

Same problem. Again I refer everyone to my posts above for the original structure of my argument and its full textual context. I similarly advise reading MyopicPaideia's nuanced argument in its complete textual setting.

 

I like your reply for the most part, you make several meaningful points. You are probably right that I was making a straw man out of you, but you did claim that the storyline diminished the events of the past trilogies. You also did write that Luke's mission in the OT was to rebuild the Jedi. That's why @Ammianus Marcellinus and I reacted the way we did,and almost simultaneously, hilariously enough.

The thing is, that we learn in TFA that Luke apparently did in fact try to singlehandedly create a new Jedi order all by himself. Han's dialogue when recounting the events on the Millennium Falcon for Rey & Finn makes it clear Luke had several apprentices at once. (I think the term padawan may have died with the old Jedi order of the PT) It may not have been arrogance on Luke's part, but rather naiveté that led him to believe he could handle that burden by himself. We know the end result - he lost control and in a tragic twist, it was his own nephew who turned against him.

Luke probably became a recluse because he felt he would only cause more pain and damage than good. He sent his daughter into hiding in a bid to protect and hide her from a similar fate to Ben Solo's. He needed to contemplate and find the right way forward.

He'll probably come to realise that the Jedi Order cannot be rebuilt in one generation, but rather must be done slowly and carefully, Master to Apprentice, one at a time, and those initial apprentices must be very carefully chosen. He'll gain a renewed resolve to do it "right" this time, and by the end of IX I predict that Rey (or whatever her real name is) and a redeemed Ben Solo will be the ones to carry the flag so to speak.

 

Pleasure debating with you.

Ah mea culpa, I'm assuming you're referring to this:

I apologise that the language gave the impression that I was expressing the views that you are criticising.

For your first point, what I'm saying does come very close to saying that the OT is diminished by leaving Rey as the sole Jedi at the end of the ST but my main order of criticism isn't that this turn of events leaves the OT pointless, which we agree was about Luke beating the Emperor/redeeming Vader and the fall of the Empire, but that it stagnates the story. Again, that's my fault for using the wrong language.

For your second point I should have made clear that it was my opinion that the ROTJ left Luke with the task of rebuilding with the Jedi Order, this interpretation of mine is solely based on Yoda's line "Pass on what you have learned". And clearly I wasn't alone in this thinking otherwise TPTB wouldn't have had Luke begin training the next generation of jedi during the space of time between the OT and ST.

Sure, that could very well be the reason why Luke's initial attempt at re-establishing the Jedi Order failed, that he took on too many apprentices at once I mean, but at this stage we don't know why he failed, Luke himself probably doesn't know either. Like you say I have no doubt here that he has gone into hiding to reflect upon his failings but perhaps he has got too caught up in this negativity and needs to be convinced to try again, to have faith in himself which is what I think Rey could do.

I'm not sure the term "padawan" has been phased out for the ST, I was just expressing my preference for the calling them "apprentices". I don't quite know why but I just found padawan out of place and slightly jarring in an organisation where the other positions are Jedi "Knight"/"Master"/"Grand Master"

Careful now, you're presenting your opinion as fact. Rey is far from being confirmed as Luke's daughter and it would be a mistake to treat it as a forgone conclusion.

An interesting proposition, depending upon exactly what you mean here. Do you mean that Luke should focus on one apprentice at a time, e.g. finishing Rey's training before moving on to another apprentice, or that Luke should train one apprentice and then let that apprentice, now Knight Rey, train another while he does nothing? I'm assuming you mean the former which as in-story reason/excuse for Luke to train only one apprentice, Rey, is a logical explanation but still not something I'm keen on as my preference is not to be limited to just Luke, the mentor/Yoda, and Rey, the apprentice/Luke, for this trilogy. But again that is my personal preference.

Not to go onto too much of a tangent but as to whether Kylo/Ben will be redeemed is in a interesting question. I'm very much in favour of his redemption, I made a more detailed post in a thread on this subject, but If he is I don't see him rejoining the JO at the end of the ST, his guilt would keep him away but he would act as an independent/wild card ally, that's my theory at least.