Main Finn/John Boyega Episode IX Thread

Well they did say that Poe was supposed to die in TFA. And while my favorite character is Finn, I like Poe. And I know some people have argued that if Poe died in this Episode it would give Finn room (because right now they occupy the same Resistance space), I'd actually prefer that Poe not die. I don't dislike his character I just want them to give Finn a lane and allow him to operate in it with some expertise. That doesn't mean flawless execution (Luke made mistakes all the way up to ROTJ) but Finn's presentation in TFA was tolerable based on the belief that he would begin to come into his own in TLJ and (for me) he didn't, he just wasted a feature length movie switching jerseys. And having made the decision he is ostensibly the same guy in TFA who seemed ill-equipped on his own to shape events and direct the course of larger conflict himself, but instead could only provide assists to the actual heroes who then took action (providing the location of the thermal oscillator for Poe, holding off Ren so Rey could recover and defeat him).

I'm trying (really really trying) not shoot holes in the boat before it launches, but I think I am going to personally insist, if people are going to refer to him as heroic, that he be allowed to act in a capacity which is reserved for heroes in SW. I personally can't get on board with him being heroic merely because he is a brave since every Resistance Member is brave. I hope JJ can pull this off but, I really have doubts.

And honestly after seeing how GoT ended, I have doubts about the writing capability of D&D and their new trilogy.

 

We don’t get every Resistance Member’s background and motivation. We get Finn’s. We get to see how he came to this fight. He’s our proxy. He didn’t just conveniently land there. He made the choice to be there.

Finn recognized the evil of the group he was a part of, refused to participate in it and removed himself. It was terrifying, but he did it anyways. That’s courageous.

He didn’t believe opposing the FO in any way could be successful, but when his friend was in danger, he did it anyways. That’s courageous.

When all he wanted to do was get away from the conflict to keep his friend safe and not get involved, he did it anyways. That’s courageous.

Maybe he isn’t demonstrating fairytale heroism in this larger-than-life childish sense of over-the-top super hero status, but he is showing us through his actions how real people in the real world can actually be heroic. That’s far more impactful and resonant to me and hopefully to the younger audiences watching these movies who will never in their lives have to battle magical space wizards.

"That's a real hero. Know right from wrong and don't run away when it gets hard." - Paige Tico

 

Just as a reminder, Star Wars is an action franchise. I think asking for Finn to show competence and skill commensurate with what the creators say is the canon version of the character, a top 1 percent stormtrooper, is a fair thing to ask and expect. What I don't think is fair is to expect people to be happy with a character that is nowhere near that level, especially when they've been disappointed over and over 2/3 ways into the trilogy. I'm going to be honest and say that I'm not happy with the way Finn has been handled so far and I really don't find courage and bravery to be adequate in comparison to the rest of the characters. Especially when the rest of the characters have just as much as he does but more importantly, they have the skills and competence to go with it. The fact of the matter is we shouldn't still be describing Finn the same way we were at the end of TFA going into the last movie of the trilogy because that's literally all he has going for him while it's everyone else's base descriptor. Think about it, Finn's high water mark is everyone else's base level. That is ridiculous and completely absurd.

 

Part of your problem is you don’t understand what Star Wars actually is.








John Wick or Die Hard are action franchises. Star Wars has never been about action.

 

Finn isn’t some absurdist cartoon paragon. He’s me.

I can never be some sodding sorcerer, doing flips and lifting rocks with my mind like Rey. I can never be some blooming ace-pilot, swooping in to save the day with cocksure daring do like Poe. But I can be Finn. I can be the guy in a room, surrounded by hate mongers spitting filth, and say “No. This is wrong and I won’t be a part of it.” I can be the guy who’s way the hell out of his depth, but sticks to his beliefs because he knows it’s right.

Skills? Competency? That makes for a really terrific craftsman, but that’s not what it takes to be a hero. That’s myopic and shallow and woefully misses the point of the character.

You're right, Finn isn’t a hero in the tradition of classical Star Wars heroes. He’s BETTER. He’s MY hero and I like him just the way he is. You’re missing out.

 

Bingo
The Light keeps defeating the Dark with pacifism.
If that wasn't the biggest clue for people that it IS NOT about the action in the saga films....

 

I do believe you made the Han comparison first. The response was fair game. You know who else was a secondary hero not a main hero? Obi-Wan in the prequels. Obi-wan had MANY heroic moments as a secondary not main hero. The prequels uniquely had the main hero morph into the villain (I think they trying the opposite with Kylo Ren...but that is another post for his thread). All is to say Obi-Wan had some comical dialogue but he was NEVER made the butt of the jokes. Same for Han,THAT is the issue. Hard to take him seriously as a secondary main character when he is not creating the humor but when its at his expense... Also Obi-Wan and Han took losses but their charecterization and heroic moments balanced those losses. They have thus far failed to strike that balance with Finn's character.

 

I didn’t compare Hans “cool” factor or personality. I compared his relationship to the hero and his heroic acts. Lando is cooler than all of them and he’s not even a secondary hero in my opinion. In the prequels, you had highly skilled Jedi running around. Very different situation. Finns origin as a Stormtrooper, which is a nice change of pace, limits his cool factor. They couldn’t make him Rambo. Read eeproms posts with an open mind and enjoy him for being uniquely Finn.

 

Has Star Wars ever been about consistent characterization? Because Finn doesn't have that either.

And what's funny about these two arguments is not only the fact that they're contradictory, but Finn and his "arc" (and I use that term lightly) is left out of both of definitions.

@techsteveo states that Star Wars is a fairy tale. Alright. However, Fairy Tales are, in essence about fantastical, otherworldly adventures and people doing amazing things. Triumphing over evil in ways that are otherworldly, or impressive. Finn does not fit into that category at all. In fact, in terms of "fairy tale" presence, Finn has no place in that narrative at all. I find it odd that someone who claims to care about the character wants to use a genre definition that the character has no place in. But then again, techsteveo is the same person who defended Finn's constant dehumanization through the first two films.


And @eeprom tries to state that Finn is some paragon of humanity, in which he grows into a well-rounded person. And that's not true either. I fail to see how Finn rehashing his same story beats from one movie to another, while also being dehumanized is some grand triumph of character building. In actuality, Finn is a glorified plot device, which is the opposite of a nuanced character arc. Finn exists to move the plot forward, regardless of what his personal backstory, beliefs are. And this is evidenced by the haphazard, disorganized way the character has moved from one point in the narrative to the other with no thought to consistency, characterization, or personal history.

Whichever definition you wish to use, Finn fits in neither of them. Which is strange. After all, he's this great well-rounded, inspirational character, isn't he?

 

Because he just walked through a desert and needed water so he drank whatever he could find? Should he have walked up to someone and punched them and took their water? That would make him cool right?

Because he fell out of his hospital bed because he was disoriented? Should he have woke up, casually took off his bacta suit, changed clothes and walked up to the bridge and said "Yo Leia, I'm back, where's my girl?"

Because he was tasered by Rose? Should he have beat her ass when he woke up, all thug like? "Beotch, don't ever dehumanize me again...slap!"

I guess we should be mad that Han constantly got joked for his ship right? "What a piece of junk!" "You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought". "Why don't you out run them, I thought you said this thing was fast?" Yup, Han's pride and joy. The thing he loved almost as much as Chewie, and he was put down for it by total strangers. Total dehumanization.

Get real. It's supposed to be fun.

 

I'll give you the first but the rest are just gross, not to mention deliberate misinterpretations of people's points. It's also pretty offensive that you're using a stereotypical vernacular for Finn's speech.

 

So you don't want good guy "everyman" Finn, and you don't want "Samuel L Jackson" Finn. Got it.

 

I love how you act as if the writer's couldn't find another way to ensure Finn got hydrated without resorting to dehumanizing tropes. It's quite interesting that you spend more time defending the current scene than thinking of other ways he could have been hydrated. For instance there could've been an abandoned spring/fountain that he could've drunken from.

Well, anyone who's spent time in these threads knows that Finn's original opening scene was supposed to be far more nuanced and respectful of his character. Of course, Rian Johnson simply didn't feel like writing it.

Oh, and Han and being teased about his ship is not the same as Finn's constant dehumanization. What you're invoking is called a False Equivalence. And if you're not sure what that is, feel free to look it up.

This is also a fair point. But seeing as techsteveo has spent the last few pages working to deny basic humanity to a character they claim to like, is this really much of a surprise?

 

The Finn character’s starting position in TLJ is in direct equivalence to his ending position in TFA. He only cares about the wellbeing of himself and Rey. Not out of any sort of spite, but base resignation: fighting the First Order, to him, is a pointless prospect. That’s ‘resumption’ of arc, not repetition.

Where he ends that story is in a place of ratification. He’s no longer acquiescent to futility, but now actively defiant. That’s undeniable continuation and progress of story. You can dislike the execution of that arc all day, but to call it ‘rehash’ is little more than willful ignorance.

Finn’s journey is in direct proportion to one of the principle themes of this incomplete trilogy and the saga as a whole: nonengagement and the passive condonement of villainy. “I can't get involved...there's nothing I can do about it...it's such a long way from here.” To not take a stand against evil is no different than letting it happen. Luke made that leap in an afternoon. Finn is actually being shown to earn that point of view over time. He’s not a “device”. He’s a surrogate. The lessons he learns are the lessons we learn.

I won’t defend Finn’s execution in TLJ. I find it clumsy and oddly placid in its stakes. RJ decided to treat Finn’s next phase in development like Pinocchio. A puppet, freed from his strings, on a quest to become genuine, guided by his sidekick conscience (Rose), and distracted from his growing virtue by an enticing ‘pleasure island’ (Canto Bight). Way too passive and observational a tactic for my taste.

That storyline though is entirely about him becoming more of who he truly is - independent of his learned cynicism: the man on Jakuu, weary and dehydrated, who saw a strange girl being attacked and instinctively ran TOWARD the danger. That’s who he really is underneath. An advocate. A defender. His story is all about moving beyond his limitations and achieving that. It’s sad to me that people aren’t able to see this narrative structure and the merit of it.

Edit

I’ll absolutely concede there’s an uncomfortable amount of disproportionate indignity lobbed his way. I really wish his slapstick had been dialed back (across the board, honestly).

There’s cheap comedic value there, yes, but there’s also character work being made. He’s a man constantly shown to be in over his head. He isn’t suave. He isn’t elegant. He’s the unlikely hero, who suffers through those barbs, and proves his worth in the end. He’s that scrappy underdog who gets underestimated and I’ll never not root for the underdog.

 

It is well documented all throughout the Cantina that there are those who are dissatisfied/disappointed with the character of Finn up to this date. I’m interested to see what would need to change in The Rise of Skywalker for those opinions to change about Finn. Or is it a lost cause in those people’s minds and nothing could happen in the movie to change their opinion on Finn?

 

Let's break this down shall we?

Finn's narratives in both films work to be fodder for the heroic moments, or human building beats of other characters. Upon meeting Finn, Poe showcases his flight ability, with Rey, she accepts her destiny. With Rose we get an understanding of why she and her sister are loyal to the Resistance. The narratives of both films use him most frequently when it is time to allow other characters to shine. And this is evidenced both inside and outside the narrative. Of course, we've discussed the marketing campaign from 2014-2015, we've discussed the marketing for TLJ or the constant rewrites that went into Finn's narrative, the restructuring or certain narrative beats, or the removal of certain scenes that would help to give Finn a more rounded narrative in the second film (and those have been talked about at length on various Finn threads in this forum).

Finn is used in both the marketing and narratives as set up for other people. And if you wish to place both TFA and TLJ side by side there are clear redundancies in Finn's character trajectory, from his unwillingness to fight, and his lack of direction, to the total disregard of his personal history. Not to mention him making jokes during what are supposed to be character building moments for him (His "I'm in charge now" line in TFA or him hitting his head upon waking up in TLJ) You state that all of those rehashes are simply just more story beats to move his character forward, and yet they could've easily been accomplished in the first movie, or simply done away with. They're that similar in their regard. The first rule of cohesive narratives are doing away with redundancies. And Finn's "arc" is littered with them all the way up to his lack of agency during the final scenes of both films.

It's disturbing to me that so many people who claim to like the character seem to praise his redundant storylines, inconsistent character motivations and constant backpedaling for the betterment of the plot. Strange.

And I find it funny that you claim Finn is "underestimated." There's a clear difference between being underestimated and being disregarded. Finn is the latter, both inside and outside of the overall narrative. Of course, most people are too busy trying to find ways to defend Finn drinking out of a trough to notice.

 

All the stuff that happens to Finn, I feel like would happen to me if I were in his shoes. I would totally be cupping my hands drinking nasty water if I was dying of thirst. I would totally fall out of the bed if I had never been in a bacta suit and was just in a coma. I don't see how that's denying humanity. Some of you need to lighten up.


Also, Finn drinking from the trough was probably inspired by the old Westerns. Cowboys drinking after riding through the desert.

 

I hope that's not photoshopped... I've watched allot of Westerns, don't seem to recall this one... any who, all the backlash of a black stormtrooper and to see him drink from the trough was disheartening to say the least... and we all know Star Wars is Sci-Fi Fantasy, whoever said action must have mixed up their genres... still... I haven't seen any other Star Wars character do something truly disgusting, why pick Finn? ...goofball?!?!?

Furthermore, I couldn't suspend my disbelief when Finn drank from the trough, it kind of took me out of the film a bit, who would drink after a creature that resembles a pig?

I have pause drinking from a person's water bottle let alone from a trough, and I get it, Finn survived a crash, walked in the desert, no one offered him something to drink...

Yet, if you read the novelization, Poe gets water from the Alien he comes across... Why does Finn have to drink from a trough, in a popular film franchise?

This is not a B movie, or a western, and i know Star Wars was inspired by spaghetti westerns and samurai films... oy veh...

 

And once again, you seem to miss the fact that those scenes were written and could've been rewritten to ensure Finn was treated differently. It's so interesting that you seem to have a problem with Finn being treated with small dignities. Are you sure you like him?

Oh, and that picture you posted is gorgeous. Too bad it's not comparable to the Trough scene that's been mentioned before. So...this would be your second False Equivalence, right?

 

They picked Finn because of his circumstances. I think JJ just wanted to find a way to show off the Happabore.



Which is probably why Rian tried to one up him with this...


They aren’t picking on Finn. The Directors are just weird.