Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

And yet he will be redeemed.

Not a good guy at the moment, no. Nobody said he is. But evil he is not.

I'm not even going to go into addressing your list.
Also let's remember that Anakin/Vader has a much more serious and damning body count list on his tally. He personally slaughtered a whole village (including the women and children). He killed all the young students at the academy. He actively assisted in implementing Order 66. He killed the separatists on Mustafar who were unarmed. He assisted space nazy emperor build two super weapons.
The list goes on and on.
And yet, Luke who never knew him and has not seen him do even one single act of goodness, only based on feeling his father "still had good in him" and witnessing how Vader saved him from Palpatine believed that Vader can be saved and saw no issue with saving and taking him back with him. Just because.

 

couple of corrections:

we still don't have any bodies at that alleged Jedi school massacre.
he doesn't work for space Hitler, he works for the fishy-eyed toilet monster (i mean, c'mon, get it right). hahaha​

also, you forgot:

chokes poor Mitaka
prolly killed a buncha poor slobs in that rain scene in the Forceback with the KOR
destroys equipment with no regard for the poor schlubs who have to clean up his messes
totally wrecked Maz's castle
can't even follow his own leadership's orders
wants to kill Luke Skywalker​

i'm sure there's more.

but that's still not what @Boushhdisguise said and I agree: all things considered, he's not that evil.

 

Who's Mitaka ?

 

this poor unlucky lieutenant:

 

Vader would have finished that guy.

 

Aw, look! Mitaka's got GFFA pocket protectors! He's a First Order nerd! That's adorable.

 

WHAT DOES GFFA STAND FOR!

 

Galaxy Far, Far Away

 

Galaxy, Far, Far, Away, oh man @Choose Light got their first!!!!

 

Ha ha, I'm sneaky that way.

 

That story about the redeemed serial killer with the finger necklace is the best thing I've read all week! Yeah, Buddhism is pretty cool. I live next door to an Ashram, and they are the best neighbours ever. Not really country people though, they're terrified of my four legged beasts, who are massive sooks. I like that it's not really a religion, but a life approach, it doesn't conflict my my devout atheism, lol.

Anyways, concepts like good and evil are a bit absolute and morally subjective for me to pay them much heed. It doesn't interest me to try and categorise Kylo as evil. I'm more interested in what the catalyst for change might be, and how he responds to it.

On a side note, I always enjoyed the pleasure Sideous took in his evil work. One should take the time to enjoy the little things, like destoying the Jedi Order. If Kylo isn't redeemed, I hope he at leasts get to revel in and enjoy his evil for a bit.

 

Ha ha--this made me chuckle. I bet our dear old Sidious would do a spot of cheerful whistling while he swept the galaxy free of Jedi.

 

Oh, for sure, he was a happy guy.





He sure didn't have any luck getting Kylo's Grandfather to enjoy the little things though...

 

LOL.

 

Just finished Bloodline and it makes me even more curious about Ben. A lot happened to Ben, the New Republic, and the First Order in the six year run-up to TFA.

A lot more happened in the past six years than I would have thought after watching TFA.

 

yeah, Ben went Ren very recently, though we don't know how long she's been out of touch with him and Luke in Bloodline.
but if we assume finding out Vader was grandpa was what did him in, then it definitely all went to heck without even the benefit of a handbasket really fast.

it becomes rather tantalizing to know how Leia finds out about Ben, then.
does she get a call from Luke? or is he just as lousy with communication and sends her a pre-recorded message? [good job, Mom].

seems from what Han says, that it's possible they never actually talked to each other once it all went south.

 

Anakin's redemption is such a huge event that it seems crazy that Luke is training Ben and the topic isn't discussed honestly.

If Ben fostered some kind admiration for Vader he would love this news. Bloodline touches on how many members of the Senate harbour fond memories of the Empire and there's this weird appreciation for Vader.

 

i think the character of Ransolm is an interesting analog for Ben in some ways (at the beginning when Leia first meets him and just thinks he's a weirdo spoiled brat who doesn't understand what the Empire was all about).

i guess we have no idea whether Luke might have already talked to him or what Luke's told him.
we got nothing--not even what Leia said in her holo-message.
just got more questions.

 

It's all perspective, I guess, or "point of view", as we have seen in a GFFA. Is KR a "bad guy" or "evil"? Sure, from our perspective; I'd say he is. I see KR as more of a soldier who believes in "the cause". Are soldiers evil? Maybe from the perspective of their enemies they are. Ask any patriotic soldier if they think they're evil; doubt you'd hear a "yes". If KR seems bad to you, then he is. Do bad things----> bad guy...or is he...? For me, I see him as a guy who's fighting for what he believes in, but that could change as the story unfolds. Now, take all of those things on your list, save for killing his dad, and apply it to a soldier(s) and see if it meets current and past expectations:

Killing an old man who's your enemy...yes
Killing an entire village of enemies...yes
Torturing enemies for information...yes
Capturing prisoners of war...yes
Kill/maim enemies...yes
Slice armed enemies with a sword...yes
Work for egomaniacal generals, admirals and politicians...yes
Reveres historical figures, like other soldiers and military leaders...yes

In summary, is KR evil? By his actions and by definition, yes. But who's more evil, the hand of evil or brain that controls the hand?

 

But on the other hand, Leia's bloodline with Vader

Spoiler

completely ruins her political career because he is still so hated and reviled.

Vader's redemption was only such a huge event for us, apparently. I got the impression that in a GFFA the news that he was redeemed doesn't seem to have been widespread, or else it was disbelieved.