Official Episode VIII - Kylo Ren Discussion Thread

I don't know exactly how everything will turn out, but a relationship of some sort was definitely being set up between Rey and Kylo. It's not a simple hate-hate relationship, especially as the characters develop and change.

I think something has to happen to Kylo. He's too unstable to stay how he was in TFA. And to me, the most logical thing would be for him to run away, or to confront Snoke or Rey or Luke...he's going to make some kind of decision for sure. Throughout TFA Kylo was being ordered about a lot, but in VIII he is going to be more in control of himself I think.

 

• "[Any words of encouragement for those of us who love Han and Leia and are not willing to see them portrayed as bad parents?] You could choose to believe Leia's take on the matter, which she states in TFA." (April 1, 2016) "[That's not good enough an answer?] But in the absence of any other information, why reject what a character you presumably trust is telling you?" (April 1, 2016) "It reminds me of the Sana Solo thing. No one seemed to believe Han when he said it wasn't true. Everyone presumed the worst." (April 1, 2016) "[But Abrams and Driver saying in the documentary that Han and Leia were absent parents?] Or that's what Kylo felt about it. There's a difference. And more to it. The story hasn't been told. There's years to go." (April 1, 2016)
• "You know who's to blame for Kylo's actions? Kylo is. Just like Anakin's responsible for what he did." (April 1, 2016) "[Anakin] knows right from wrong. He made a choice." (April 1, 2016) "[Leia blames Snoke?] Just like a mom. " (April 1, 2016) "[Are you saying Kylo Ren cannot be redeemed?] a path to redemption is a choice Anakin made too." (April 1, 2016)
• "What makes [Kylo Ren] interesting is his bloodline. And, I like that he's a take on entitlement. That's feels fresh." (April 2, 2016) "What makes Kylo interesting is his bloodline. I like that a lot." (April 2, 2016) "[The ole millennial with famous parents angle?} That and he's the perfect embodiment of the Original Trilogy fan. " (April 2, 2016) "Kylo & the FO are collectors & OT purists who think the Empire was teh best & hate PT things like Jedi & Senate " (April 3, 2016) "[Kylo Ren thinks he's doing the right thing?] Yep. I think that's what makes him scary. And the fact that a lot of people could empathize with him." (April 2, 2016) "[Was Kylo Ren being literal when he said that the Skywalker lightsaber belonged to him?] Well. I'll say Kylo does a pretty good job of embodying entitlement as a character trait." (April 2, 2016) "I get a sense that as the 'Jedi killer' he feels he alone is heir to their legacy not some lowly scavenger." (April 3, 2016) "I think there's a lot of shifting ground here (literally!) as [Kylo Ren] starts to believe what [Rey] can do." (April 3, 2016)
• "[Ben's middle name?] Any name beyond Ben hasn't been revealed anywhere." (April 2, 2016) "[Kylo Ren?] Come on. You know what I mean. Real names." (April 2, 2016)
• "Actually, [the Kylo Ren StarWars.com databank entry is] spot on. It's the Knights of Ren stuff that's not being defined in any current works." (April 2, 2016) "[Where is the information in the Kylo Ren databank from?] Combination of sources. Recall that the Visual Dictionary identifies Kylo as the 'Jedi killer.'" (April 2, 2016) "Luke was training a new generation of Jedi, it all went wrong because of 1 boy, and he's the "Jedi killer" - that's the source" (April 2, 2016) "I'd say its inclusion in the Visual Dictionary makes it fact. It's part of [Kylo Ren's] back-story." (April 2, 2016) [A lot of arguing has gone on about that databank line about Kylo Ren killing the Jedi apprentices?] Is this message board drama stuff? I'm glad I don't hear it. " (April 2, 2016)

Quote index - Part III - Pablo Hidalgo

Who is Pablo Hidalgo and what is the Lucasfilm Story Group?

 

Definitely. I've said this elsewhere, but: Rey is his beacon to the Light side.

I betcha he spends a lot of Ep. VIII trying to track her down, maybe even trying to reach her with his thoughts - the way Luke & Vader sometimes communicated or sensed each other near. I mean, they have a connection now, right? After getting into one another's minds?

Snoke has tasked him with bringing her in, so there's his cover. But it's personal for him, too! Here's this newcomer, this nobody, powerful with the Force, who consistently subverted his expections. She turned his mind probe around on him, she got away, she beat him in a fight, she left a huge scar on his face,... He won't let it slide! And either he wants revenge, or he wants her for an apprentice, or he's just plain taken with her (she's amazing!) - or a weird combination of all three. Hell, he's so turned around he probably won't KNOW which one is true.

My theory is that a romance does develop. As soon as he unmasked, I went "ohhh, ok." I mean my god, the Prince Charming hair... But even if they aren't destined to 'live happily ever after,' he'll be drawn to her. And she'll play a big part in his coming back to the Light.

 

@Darth Spocktor & @Automatic:
We have to wish Kylo any kind of "beacon" besides drama and wrong desires like you suppose.. if it will turn out to be Rey, I will be fine with it.
Beside that: "Thanks alot for real hard facts @MagnarTheGreat

 

i have a feeling he'll not only know which is true, but he'll initially conceal it (as he did regarding his agenda with the map).
what he wants with Rey is likely what will drive the wedge between him and Snoke and ultimately make him choose to break away.

 

I didn't articulate this very well...

I agree he'll get clarity about those feelings and that he'll conceal them. But at first, it will appear - whether because of his posturing or the assumptions of others - that he wants to settle the score, tie up loose ends. And I think he's confused enough not to fully know, right out of the gate, "I'm going after her because she's my other half."

--- Double Post Merged, Apr 3, 2016, Original Post Date: Apr 3, 2016 ---

(I wish I could "like" posts, dang it. I dig nearly every point you make, FN.)

 

awww, thanks @Automatic ~ hope you stick around and get to know all the great people here!

and yes, i agree completely ~ he seems to operate out of instinct.
the lizardy part of his brain might be set to "revenge" at the start, and it'll take some interaction for the human part to normalize back to "this is what you've been looking for your whole life, you ninny" ~ hahaha

 

Agree, in order for a Redemption arc for Kylo to be more believable and accepted after he killed his own father, would be for Kylo to be tormented by that act and his bad decisions and then something happening to his mother, this time, to propel his path back to the Light. There was speculation that Leia would be in a coma in Episode8 - maybe at the hands of Hux and the FO with/or without Kylo's knowledge or consent. They may decide to keep Kylo down the path of the darkside and go crazy, but for me, irredeemable Kylo being put down like a dog would be too depressing for SW and for Leia who has lost everything.

Agree on Kylo being obsessed with Rey. How could he not when he finally meets someone on the same level as him personally (lonely, feelings of abandonment, anger issues), with force powers, who proved herself against him as a worthy adversary (mentally and physically).
She's also young and beautiful and everything he could've been and wasn't (close to the light, close to his own father/mother, living his life with the Resistance, flying in his Falcon, carrying his lightsaber).

Every time he looks at himself and the scar, he will be reminded of killing Han, of Chewie shooting him, that she was witness to his vulnerability and his anguish, that the traitor he let go was there with her, that she was able to beat him and literally scar his vanity/pride. He won't let that one slide, that's for sure. In Ep8 I see him waiting for another chance to fight her, but as time goes on, his feelings for her may change into something other than wanting to kill her/take revenge. It may evolve into an uneasy truce by fighting against something that threatens them both, and then eventually some compassion on Rey's part after she hears about or sees Ben Solo's backstory. It is more believable if Kylo pulls himself out of his hellhole towards redemption rather than Rey doing that for him. In fact, I would love it if Rey were the one to fall into the darkside (if only slightly, not all the way) and Kylo is the one to save her from it.

In my opinion, I see Kylo as ending up walking the path of a Gray Jedi (referencing the poem at the beginning of the novel). I see Rey as being a Gray Jedi as well because she has some darkside tendencies in her and those two would be the perfect people who walked both sides of the force to understand what it means to be Gray. The Jedi tried to suppress basic human emotions, the Sith/Darkside tried to fully give in to the basic human emotions. It's a good time to explore the original Jedi and their practice of the Force.

 

Agree! His redemption is not Rey's responsibility. Not saying that at all.

In fact, I imagine Kylo/Ben making overtures (not necessarily romantic ones, but you know, "I'm on your side"-like) and Rey not knowing what to do with them - if not rejecting them outright (?). Will probably be a tough pill for Finn to swallow as well.

 

This is how I think it should and will go down as well.

 

I definitely agree. I could see Rey's disdain for Kylo turn into something that resembles pity as she learns more about him and how he's been manipulated by Snoke.

Obviously we're still not sure if they're related or not, but if they really wanted to echo the original trilogy, they could have Kylo fall in love with Rey only to find out that she's his cousin in IX. I hope they don't go there lol.

Regardless of whether romance is involved, I am pretty sure that Rey will become Kylo's fixation. I think he will be obsessed with turning her to the dark side and making her his apprentice. Kylo would probably see himself as doing a noble deed by rescuing Rey from Luke and the light side.

 

Adam looks well suited up with a swordsaber in hand.

 

Upon repeated viewings of The Force Awakens I've got some thoughts on Kylo Ren's dialogue. During his meeting with Lor San Tekka he is told:
"The First Order rose from the dark side, you did not."
And he says "I'll show you the dark side."
I believe when he says this he means: That he intends to show the dark side of himself.

He is then told: "You may try, but you can not deny the truth that is your family."
And he says "You're so right."
I believe when he says this he is referring to Vader and it could be also be said the the other line refers to Vader as in, the dark side of himself is represented by Vader. He says it with so much self assurance like, "I can't deny it, and why would I want to." Then he proceeds to do what he thinks Vader would do in that situation.

So beyond his look which harkens back to Vader (somewhat anyway) they were trying to show us immediately, even before the obvious scene with him talking to Vader's mask, that he is smitten by the dark side of the family. Not sure if this has been mentioned here before, because it does seem somewhat obvious, although it went right over my head after just two viewings.

 

I kind of took that for granted going in because I knew the spoiler of him being Vader's grandson. But if you didn't, it's a kind of foreshadowing.

 

This went by too fast for me in the theater to really process, so I'm only getting to it now with my own copy! It seems like another conversation Kylo has, like the one with Han on the catwalk, in which he is hearing/saying something on a totally different plane than the other person. LST is talking about Leia; Kylo is talking about Vader.

 

I thought it was obvious. On my first viewing.

Yep.

 

Yeah to some people it would be obvious, but we are trained to think of "the dark side" as an entity not a side of yourself, which is what it is for Kylo. That's sort of what I was getting at. I did assume he was Han and Leia's son (the name seemed to be compelling enough evidence) but it still went right past me!

Anyway, MagnarTheGreat made a really great point about the foreshadowing. They definitely did that with the name Kylo, with his appearance and with that early dialogue. It's really blatant foreshadowing.

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More on the dialogue, this makes the theory that Kylo Ren is some kind of double agent and means to do something for the good good when he says "I will finish what you started" seem even more outlandish. He obviously does not think of Vader as someone good. He's channeling his Vader side when he's killing Lor San Tekka, pretty much by his own admission.

 

I always found it interesting that Poe and Lor San Tekka are talking about his mother just prior to this scene. The novelization is more detailed in this conversation and Kylo Ren gives him a warning about talking about it further. Thinking Vader now gives me more to think about.

 

I really like what you are saying about points of view. Recently we've scene (haha, should be "seen") a lot of quotes here from Driver and Abrams that pertain to how Kylo Ren sees things. How he sees himself as neglected/abandoned by his parents. That's his point of view. Driver has also talked about (in interviews) how people who are "bad guys" don't really see themselves that way. So you combine those things with this conversation with Lor San Tekka and their two points of view and you really see how the filmmakers have put an emphasis on how things can be seen from more than point of view.

 

That's just what I was thinking. At first I was seeing this in black-and-white/good guy-bad guy; now I'm trying to find the nuance of point of view. (It boggles the brain at times. )