SPECULATION OFFICIAL Finn Discussion Thread

A great honor for Finn/John

 

Her article has a lot of holes in it (and this is coming from someone who is convinced that Finn is FS also) but she also makes some good points as well. I think she and I agree on the conclusion, by the evidence I use I think is more compelling, and that some of her points could be debunked, we've discussed a lot on here, how it is unlikely that he was merely a janitor and that the pre-quel novelization indicates his skill sets as a storm trooper not an administrative worker. Her paralleling Finn with Leia is a good point however.

 

I always figured that the sanitation assignment was either some sort of punishment or a (bad) luck of the draw thing: somebody's got to do it, and Finn just happened to get assigned the job.

 

I honestly think (because it wasn't crucial to the storyline or plot at all) that they threw it in, to pay off later for the garbage chute joke with Phasma. I honestly don't think they thought about it much beyond that and that it was an after thought to making that joke work and having a call back to ANH. If they had thought about it, and realized that people might be sensitive to the idea of him being perceived as a janitor, they would have done it another direction (but they still would have gone for the joke).

In a way it's kinda problematic in two ways because, Phasma is not only the first Episodic female Storm Trooper, she's a commander and supposed to be a bad a$$ and not only does she not doing anything worthy of the chrome outfit, she gets tossed down a garbage chute. Not a good look. But I guess people largely overlook it since there is a female lead so the case can be made, they're treating Phasma no different than if she was a man. The garbage chute thing was happening bar none.

 

Don't laugh but I thought it was a mind wipe to erase his emotions. They wouldn't want him having this one

1. 

 

Who is he?

Is he a stormtrooper?

Not really, to be honest. He implies about his past that, like all stormtroopers, he was brainwashed from youth to be just another unthinking, unfeeling, nameless, faceless drone. But is any of this evident in the way he acts? Do we see a single trace of this in his personality?

No. On the contrary, Finn is creative, he takes initiative, he’s free spirited, he enjoys being adventurous. Emotionally, he’s open, trusting, and uncannily healthy. He displays not a single shred of remorse at acting against his supposed brainwashed upbringing. No conflict at all. He’s funny, quirky, naive, adventurous. He’s everything a normal citizen of the Star Wars galaxy would be.

The only traces of his former identity are in little bits of knowledge he uses to help the plot along. In personality, he is the exact opposite of what his character claims to be.

Okay, fine. Let’s look at a different aspect of his character?

Why is he so attached to Rey? Why does he care for her so much that he sacrifices the safety he’s supposedly been chasing the whole movie to rush in and rescue her?



He claims that it was Rey who first treated him like a real person. She was the one who first saw him as more than another faceless stormtrooper.

Again, however, we find a disconnect. It was actually Poe who first treated him as more than a stormtrooper. Poe trusted him. Poe treated him like an equal. Poe gave him his name. Finn’s identity was FN-2187 until he met Poe. Not Rey. Poe.

His first experience outside trooperhood was his adventure with Poe.

Finn develops a friendship with Poe. He’s sad when he thinks Poe is dead, he’s happy when he finds out that Poe is alive, he’s touched when Poe gives him his jacket–another step towards personhood for this former trooper.

And yet it is with Rey that Finn develops a much stronger relationship.

So two of Finn’s most prominent characteristics are not supported by what we see on screen.
What are we left with?

What does this character want anyway?



Does he want to be a Jedi? He seems fine with it, but he’s not particularly driven to become one.

Does he want to help the Resistance? He pretends he wants to, but he doesn’t really. Even when he breaks into Starkiller Base, it’s not to help the Resistance at all–it’s to rescue Rey. Rey is important to him because she sees him not as a stormtrooper, but as… what?

Looking at Finn’s arc, what is he moving away from and what is he moving towards?

Rey, by example, is moving away from her perceived duty of waiting on Jakku for her family to return and is moving towards becoming a hero like those in the stories she’s read. Her first plot point decision puts her on the track towards becoming that hero. Her midpoint reversal is deciding not to accept Han’s job offer and instead to return to Jakku. Her climax is using the Force and fighting the main villain like the hero she truly is.



Now look at Finn.

Finn’s first plot point decision is to help Poe escape and leave behind his identity as a stormtrooper. His midpoint reversal was not helping the Resistance because he was afraid of getting killed by the First Order. The third act consists of Finn deciding to rescue Rey, climaxing in him demonstrating potential as a Jedi.

What?

Where is there ANY direction in this?

The ending has him going off into the sunset with Poe?? What is going on with this character?

My best guess is that he’s trying to find himself and his place, but this too is done poorly. He seems to have no trouble finding his place with Rey and the Resistance. There’s no struggle in him accepting that. There’s no give and take. His only struggle comes with his fear of the First Order. At that point we learn for the first time that he’s not comfortable being the hero. And at that point, he reverts–but not to anything specifically. He doesn’t consider becoming a faceless soldier again, he doesn’t wallow in despair at feeling lost. His conflict centers more around Rey. What is she to him again?

—–

This is what Finn’s character SHOULD have been:
The struggle we saw in the first 20min of the movie is what his struggle should have been for the ENTIRE movie. The point of his character should have been the question: is it possible even for a stormtrooper to feel the Force and become a Jedi?

Plotwise, he should have started in the same place: being traumatized. Instead of Finn saving Poe, Poe escapes by forcing Finn to leave the Death Star at gunpoint. When the ship crashes, Finn finds Rey and for the first time, he can’t bring himself to do what he feels he should–he doesn’t kill her. But he does remain vocally and mentally loyal to the Empire. When Finn and Rey realize the droid is the one the First Order is after, he again is confronted with the decision of whether to join the other stormtroopers and pursue Rey, or help her. Against everything in him, he chooses to help her.

They escape together, he takes off his mask for the first time, he despairs at feeling lost and not knowing what’s happening to him. We seem him become humanized, though cautiously and fearfully, as they encounter Han and learn the stories are true. When they meet with the Resistance and learn everyone is about to be killed, he fears for his life and regrets ever leaving the stormtroopers. He turns himself in and since they can’t afford to turn down his help, he joins rank. A moment of hesitation upon encountering Rey leads into witnessing Kylo Ren kill Han Solo, who was a genuine friend to him and didn’t judge him based on his past. At that point, he renounces his stormtrooper identity for good and joins Rey in going after Kylo Ren.

Tell me that is not a much clearer and more powerful character arc than the actual one.



Absent of a solution like this, at the very least, make it Rey who gives Finn his name. Make Poe suspicious and distrustful so we can contrast with Rey’s willingness to see Finn as a person. Make the secret of his identity MEAN something by showing us how he was treated by someone who knew what he was. Give Rey a chance to show her Jedi-esque tolerance and understanding by accepting Finn even once he reveals his past.

—–

Without a doubt, this character WILL develop in the next movie. But there’s no excuse for neglecting a protagonist like this, whether or not there’s another installment coming. So many people enjoyed this character because he was the first stormtrooper we cared about, but I simply did not see that on screen. It was told, not shown. As for the relationship with Rey, it was sloppily done considering how much of the story hinged on it. I can only hope that if it blooms into a real romance, it will be better than the last romance we saw out of Star Wars–which was also told, not shown.

 

I don't know if Finn would like to be a Jedi, but his line about "using the force" to figure out how to blow up Starkiller base suggests a (maybe naïve) belief that anyone can actually use the force, which is something the new trilogy and even Daisy Ridley on a recent interview seem to be hinting at. I know it goes against canon and Han Solo, following that aforementioned line, even mocks its ("that is not how the force works"). However, I wouldn't be surprised if we got more of that in Episode VIII.

 

When you mentioned Poe that brought a question to my mind. What would Finn's story arc have been like if Poe had died like he was originally supposed to? Also what would it have been like if Harrison Ford had not gotten injured? I think maybe the Harrison Ford injury in particular might have made for a tough adjustment for Abrams, because he's not exactly known for being a great character writer. It would be interesting to see what the plan was before all of this happened. Oh well, maybe we'll get an answer to Finn's TFA personality and arc in episode 8. If we don't I'll be pretty upset.

 

This is awkward

 

That's one question I thought about too, when the writers decided to not kill off Poe, did Finn's endgame change?

For example, would BB-8 stay with Finn or would he go off with Rey instead of R2. Would Finn even be put in to a coma at all?

 

Don't know if I agree with this, he does show angst and confusion early on (that I would argue coincides with his first encounter with the Force, which I know people don't like because they feel it reduces the power of Finn's decision to disobey a morally evil command but I digress). I think Finn does show conflict early on, but once he makes his decision to break away, he doesn't waver. I think the story line you are suggesting is also a plausible approach (i.e. that people don't just up and one day throw off their indoctrination, it's a process), I just think that they chose to showcase the end of that process in the movie, the process began in the novelization where we hear more about how Finn isn't quite fully assimilated as he should be.

Ok here I have to acknowledge that you bring up a good point... not one that can't be explained, but still a good one. On this very site I have argued that Finn has sort of a reverse Jedi path. He proves that he has the moral and character attributes of a hero, before he gets actual power of a hero. Usually potential Jedi are confronted with the reality that they have this supernatural power, and have to learn to temper their use of their power so that it doesn't corrupt them or their code of ethics.
I think he's rushing in to save her, because she represents an idea; it's beyond just liking her. She plants a seed early on in his mind that he could be a hero (even though he isn't one at the time) and it slowly takes root. Poe never looks at him like a hero, he views him as an accomplice in their mutual desire to escape. I think that's the difference. Honestly I don't even think he fully understands how much Rey's initial view of him, changed how he viewed himself. Fin thn goes from being entirely absorbed with escaping the First Order and certain death, to facing the First Order (the ground battle Jakku) and certain death (the mission to StarKiller base and the unwinnable duel against Kylo Ren).

I think we are tempted to view this merely as a school boy crush (which does play a role) but it's more. He may indeed have a crush, but the willingness to face peril for someone else's sake is what confirms his hero make up. He is facing what he literally fears the most, to save someone else, odds be damned.


That all said, I don't hate your alternate character treatment for Finn, pretty well thought out. It would've worked too.

 

https://m.facebook.com/AllDigitocracy.org/posts/1128616467176787

 

Do we have any idea what part of Finn's life this book is supposed to be covering?

 

If it's like Rey's Story it's a third-person retelling of what happens around Finn throughout the movie. If it's like Rey's Story it will be written for young children and make some departures and omissions from the movie version. Rey's Story wasn't what I'd called great.

 

Hopefully we get SOMETHING about Finn that hasn't been covered yet.

 

Wow Finn would be cool looking like this.

 

It's going to have a depressing ending then. Or maybe we'll see Finn's dream like thoughts after he goes unconscious.

 

The Force Awakens Finn time-on-screen

Finn raw screentime: Less than 1998 seconds (33 minutes 18 seconds) due to rounding

Method: Used DVD on PlayStation and looked at the time when a character is visible on-screen. It's rounded to the nearest seconds.

Spoiler: Finn timecodes

Timecodes - seconds
2:21-2:21 (???) 0.5
2:22-2:22 (???) 0.5
2:23-2:23 (???) 0.5
2:25-2:25 (???) 0.5
2:26-2:27 (???) 1
2:27-2:29 (???) 2
2:29-2:31 (???) 2
4:03-4:12 (???) 9
5:35-6:07 32
6:25-6:31 6
6:34-6:35 1
6:48-6:51 3
8:33-8:35 2
8:39-8:47 8
8:47-8:55 8
8:58-9:07 9
10:00-10:42 42
19:20-19:25 5
19:29-20:06 37
20:06-20:23 17
20:27-20:29 2
20:31-20:32 1
20:34-20:38 4
20:39-20:40 1
20:41-20:42 1
20:47-20:49 2
21:01-21:02 1
21:04-21:05 1
21:08-21:08 0.5
21:15-21:16 1
21:20-21:22 2
21:34-21:36 2
21:42-21:47 5
21:47-21:49 2
21:53-21:54 1
21:56-21:57 1
22:05-22:21 16
22:59-23:04 5
23:14-23:20 6
23:22-23:38 16
23:46-23:52 6 (baby Finn hologram)
24:02-26:13 131
26:45-27:20 35
27:27-27:30 3
27:31-27:36 5
27:43-27:44 1
27:46-27:48 2
27:52-27:58 6
28:01-28:03 2
28:06-28:07 1
28:09-28:11 2
28:12-28:30 18
28:31-28:39 8
28:41-28:49 8
28:52-29:02 10
29:04-29:13 9
29:16-29:17 1
29:18-0:29:47 29
29:50-0:29:53 3
29:57-29:59 2
30:01-30:09 8
30:11-30:14 3
30:21-30:22 1
30:24-30:24 0.5
30:25-30:46 21
30:46-30:49 3
30:56-30:59 3
31:00-31:10 10
31:10-31:15 5
31:16-31:48 32
31:50-31:53 3
31:54-31:55 1
31:57-32:02 5
32:05-32:07 2
32:09-32:14 5
32:29-32:30 1
32:47-32:49 2
32:50-32:51 1
33:12-33:14 2
33:16-33:17 1
33:20-33:22 2
33:26-33:26 0.5
33:27-33:28 1
33:30-33:30 0.5
33:35-33:37 2
34:00-34:01 1
34:06-34:07 1
34:19-34:20 1
34:21-34:21 0.5
34:24-34:26 2
34:38-34:42 4
34:48-34:50 2
35:02-35:05 3
35:29-35:30 1
35:31-35:31 0.5
35:37-35:38 1
35:52-36:02 10
36:03-36:05 2
36:06-36:08 2
36:09-36:10 1
36:11-36:16 5
36:17-36:32 15
36:33-36:36 3
37:47-37:50 3
37:52-37:55 3
37:56-38:19 23
38:19-38:22 3
38:25-38:28 3
38:29-38:30 1
38:30-38:40 10
38:41-38:42 1
38:43-38:46 3
38:46-38:47 1
38:49-39:10 21
39:12-39:28 16
39:35-39:37 2
39:39-39:42 3
39:44-39:49 5
39:50-39:52 2
39:57-40:08 11
40:10-40:13 3
40:16-40:18 2
40:41-40:42 1
40:43-40:45 2
40:47-40:48 1
40:51-40:53 2
40:55-40:56 1
40:58-41:00 2
41:02-41:04 2
41:08-41:12 4
41:18-41:21 3
41:25-41:32 7
41:59-42:32 33
42:41-42:42 1
42:45-42:47 2
42:48-42:51 3
42:54-42:59 5
43:01-43:03 2
43:04-43:14 10
43:17-43:28 11
43:29-43:32 3
44:03-44:08 5
44:12-44:19 7
44:48-44:52 4
45:20-45:22 2
45:30-45:42 12
45:52-45:56 4
46:24-46:26 2
46:33-46:35 2
46:36-46:44 8
46:45-46:49 4
46:50-46:56 6
46:57-46:58 1
46:59-47:00 1
47:01-47:02 1
47:03-47:04 1
47:05-47:06 1
47:23-47:26 (monitors) 3
47:27-47:29 (monitors) 2
47:30-47:32 (monitors) 2
47:33-47:48 15
48:12-48:15 3
48:18-48:20 2
48:36-48:37 1
48:50-48:52 2
51:30-51:36 6
51:37-51:40 3
51:43-51:48 5
52:13-52:15 2
52:16-52:20 4
52:22-52:24 2
52:26-52:31 5
52:32-52:33 1
52:37-52:47 10
52:52-52:54 2
53:07-53:15 8
53:19-53:21 2
53:29-53:33 4
53:41-53:47 6
53:53-53:56 3
54:00-54:01 1
54:11-54:12 1
54:19-54:21 2
54:25-54:31 6
54:59-55:27 28
56:13-56:15 2
56:33-56:34 1
56:36-56:39 3
56:46-56:54 8
56:55-57:02 7
57:11-57:25 14
57:49-57:49 0.5
57:54-57:58 4
57:58-57:59 1
58:03-58:05 2
58:05-58:06 1
58:16-58:17 (???) 1
59:55-59:58 3
1:00:01-1:00:02 1
1:00:15-1:00:17 2
1:00:28-1:01:01 33
1:01:02-1:01:06 4
1:01:19-1:01:36 17
1:01:40-1:01:46 6
1:01:48-1:01:58 10
1:02:00-1:02:03 3
1:02:04-1:02:19 15
1:02:30-1:03:47 17
1:03:51-1:03:54 3
1:03:56-1:03:58 2
1:04:09-1:04:14 5
1:10:14-1:10:25 11
1:10:59-1:11:06 7
1:11:49-1:11:52 3
1:12:02-1:12:17 15
1:13:43-1:13:57 14
1:14:15-1:14:24 9
1:14:25-1:14:56 31
1:14:56-1:15:10 14
1:15:12-1:15:21 9
1:15:27-1:15:31 4
1:16:09-1:16:15 6
1:16:18-1:16:22 4
1:16:22-1:16:28 6
1:16:37-1:16:45 8
1:18:47-1:18:49 2
1:18:53-1:19:13 20
1:19:26-1:19:36 10
1:21:11-1:21:28 17
1:21:31-1:21:33 2
1:21:40-1:21:42 2
1:21:44-1:21:45 1
1:21:48-1:21:49 1
1:21:50-1:22:11 21
1:22:11-1:22:49 38
1:32:15-1:32:18 3
1:32:20-1:32:21 1
1:32:26-1:32:31 5
1:32:33-1:32:43 10
1:32:48-1:32:50 2
1:33:03-1:33:08 5
1:33:11-1:33:12 1
1:33:14-1:33:19 5
1:33:21-1:33:25 4
1:33:27-1:33:29 2
1:33:36-1:33:40 4
1:33:41-1:33:42 1
1:33:55-1:34:02 7
1:34:04-1:34:10 6
1:35:29-1:35:31 2
1:35:35-1:35:40 5
1:35:41-1:35:42 1
1:35:44-1:35:45 1
1:35:48-1:35:48 0.5
1:35:52-1:35:53 1
1:35:56-1:35:57 1
1:35:58-1:35:59 1
1:36:06-1:36:07 1
1:36:34-1:36:39 5
1:36:41-1:37:16 35
1:37:28-1:37:28 0.5
1:37:31-1:37:37 6
1:37:43-1:37:55 12
1:38:54-1:39:13 19
1:39:18-1:39:21 3
1:39:25-1:39:27 2
1:40:51-1:41:27 36
1:41:32-1:42:09 37
1:42:34-1:42:46 12
1:43:10-1:43:16 6
1:43:19-1:43:21 2
1:44:46-1:44:48 2
1:44:50-1:44:55 5
1:46:03-1:46:11 8
1:46:20-1:46:22 2
1:46:40-1:46:42 2
1:48:28-1:48:32 4
1:48:44-1:48:45 1
1:48:49-1:48:49 0.5
1:49:08-1:49:10 2
1:49:57-1:49:59 2
1:50:00-1:50:02 2
1:50:05-1:50:06 1
1:50:14-1:50:19 5
1:50:23-1:50:24 1
1:50:34-1:51:02 28
1:51:05-1:51:10 5
1:51:16-1:51:18 2
1:51:21-1:51:23 2
1:51:24-1:51:25 1
1:51:26-1:51:27 1
1:51:27-1:51:37 10
1:51:39-1:51:49 10
1:51:53-1:52:10 17
1:52:11-1:52:27 16
1:52:29-1:52:36 7
1:52:37-1:52:39 2
1:52:41-1:52:45 4
1:53:04-1:53:08 4
1:58:37-1:58:43 6
1:58:46-1:59:01 15
1:59:05-1:59:06 1
1:59:08-1:59:16 8
2:00:12-2:00:20 8
2:02:31-2:03:07 36

EDIT: Added baby Finn hologram screentime (+6 seconds). This one was a debatable addition, it's like counting a photograph of a character in the background/foreground of any movie as character screentime.
EDIT 2: Found 1 second more Finn screentime under Maz's castle as Finn's boots and legs can be seen a second earlier than accounted for.
EDIT 3: Fixed unit conversion (seconds -> minutes/seconds). Unit conversion website calculator used was slightly off.

Further reading

 

Who had the most screen time?