Official Finn Episode VIII thread

I haven't seen it yet, but I would consider it kind of fitting. Although I don't trust that Lucasfilm cares that much about Finn to actually create a planet of origin for him in a completely separate film.

 

Fair point, they may not have created it with him in mind (I doubt that too) but if they can leverage the metadata on his behalf, I don't see any logistical reason why they can't. Still, to your point, maybe in their minds it's not even something they had planned to address ever and so there was no need to try to tie it in.

 

Yet they're so intent on showcasing chained dice.

I would find it strange for the First Order to go out of their way to gather kids from various planets. It's not like they are breeding them or anything.

 

After thinking about it some more, I would be really dubious about them taking advantage of that planet, if they decided to go that route because as you said ;

Spoiler: Spoiler

It's a planet known for not only being the birthplace of the rebellion but also for an alcoholic beverage. Given their track record, guess which one I think they would be more likely to focus on, especially as it relates to Finn in particular? hint* hint* It's not the positive one. We have enough problems with them basically spinning his own backstory from star stormtrooper cadet into hapless janitor. Let's not add alcoholic parents to the mix. We all know when it comes to Finn, they immediately gravitate towards the thing that can get them a cheap joke out of him.

Remember they already did that with a certain other character, luckily for her they also gave her an abundance of positive stuff to offset it.

 

If Lucas Films wants to rectify the Finn situation with a planetary reveal his homeworld should be Haruun Kal and he should be of Korunai decent. For those that don't know Haruun Kal which is cannon, is a homeplanet to Mace Windu, and a black human species/ the korun all force users. And before anyone freaks out about FS Finn.. Finn's supposed skill set is on par with Nick Rostu, a FS who isnt that powerful yet he is a master with a blaster and proficient with melee weapons. Would be cool if they revealed Nick or Kar Vastor as potential parents of Finn or some new potential Jedi/sith candidate.

 

Besides the speculation thread in IX forum, can someone make a thread for Finn?

 

(I wanted to post this in a Rose Tico thread but she doesn't seem to have been given one... Oh well, I'll post it here since most of the Rose discussion seems to take Place in Finn's thread anyway)

I find it very difficult to grasp why fanboys hate this character so much. I think that what they fail to understand is that Rose is us… She is a nobody non-hero going about her business in the world (a mechanic being as ‘street’ as it gets in Star Wars), and then stumbles headfirst into the action. Rose is the audience!

Rian Johnson went out of his way to cast someone rather ordinary-looking, non-model, twentysomething, girl-next-door type (i.e. that’s pretty close to the mean average person on the planet!), Asian actress because that’s what this character needs to be. For this reason, Rose is contrasted nicely by her sister Paige, who is the real hero type of the family (and the actress is also a model and ex-beauty pageant contestant) that Rose adore and probably hero-worships quite a bit.

Rose is the unlikely non-hero who overcomes her grief when the “real” hero dies and steps up to fight the good fight, getting in way over her head but succeeding in the end because she looks out for her friends (something Poe never does, for instance). Rose also teaches Finn about the purpose of the Resistance – to stand up for what’s right and to make thigs better for the ordinary people, not just yourself – and she inspires him to become a hero, but denies him a pointless (yet honorable, I guess) suicide-by-battering-ram-cannon-ramming death.

Heartwrenching & nausea inducing attacks on Kelly Marie Tran aside (‘cause those people are friggin idiots and a force for evil in the world), I struggle to find any reason for hating the character of Rose that doesn’t involve the haters being just a really bad persons. Of all characters to hate, why the hellion would anyone hate Rose Tico?

KMT gives us a powerful, emotional performance depicting a suffering commoner rising to the occasion. Rose is not a complex character with a many-faceted backstory and plot, because… that is not the kind of character Rose is; she’s a nobody forced into a role that is too big for her shoes, and KMT pulls it off brilliantly! She is absolutely perfect for this role and I love that she had such a good, geek-out time on the set

<3 KMT & Rose <3

 

I believe you are far far worse. There is plenty of ammo here if you choose to read through why her character is hated. You are using the same excuse others use to describe Rose when it comes to Finn, and it pisses me off highly. Finn didn't need Rose to explain a damn tning to him. Has she been through what he's been through? Who the hell is she to tell him what he needs to fight for. He needs to find out who he really is, and where he comes from. That's more important to me than him helping a bunch of ungrateful screwballs who want to define him instead of respecting him. Poe names him. Rose tells him what he should fight for. He isn't a dog. He's a person.

Answer one question for me. Did Rose show any concern for what Finn has gone through?

 

here's a thought on Finn, inspired by @Angelman's post. Finn really is the "naif" of the ST. in that way he fulfills the Luke role (whereas Rey would be Han: experienced, scrappy, etc.). as a result of his upbringing, Finn actually knows and understands very little of the galaxy (even less than Luke). so it makes sense for him to have a guide (and to need one!).

i kind of like this flip-flop of roles, but i do agree they need to really do something with it now that Finn's been out in the world and seen what it is he could be fighting for. and i hope part of what he brings to the Resistance is a steadying and compassionate hand to flyboy temperamental Poe.

one thing about TLJ that worries me with Poe is that he restates Holdo's words, but turns them aggressive: the spark that will bring down the FO.
i hope it's Finn who reminds Poe that the FO is basically an army of children who deserve and need a second chance.

 

So when you don't have a true argument lets fall back on it's just fiction. Lol. Whatever man. Make sense, and you won't be questioned.

 

Alright, let’s refrain from personal attacks, shall we?

I completely disagree with you on this. From an early age, Finn has been indoctrinated by a vile, despotic, military dictatorship and he knows nothing but booth camp training, military life, and dehumanizing propaganda. In essence, he’s a child soldier, completely out of touch with the world and the common people, and he absolutely needs someone to connect him to humanity (or sentianity, or whatever). Rose is that someone, the essential nobody commoner who represents everything about being a sentient that Finn, with his background, knows nothing about. Rose is not a hero, she’s just a person in the galaxy, one of the countless souls who suffer under galactic civil wars and from whose families young children, like Finn, are taken by the First Order to be trained as child soldiers.

Do not get me wrong about Finn; I love that character! He’s one of the boldest inventions created for the ST, a child soldier defecting form the badies; man that’s great and inspiring art! And the fact that Finn, despite his horrible upbringing, instinctively realize that the things he has been brought up to believe in and kill for is morally abominable and ethically vile is a miracle of sorts and a fantastic place to start that character’s journey. Now, in a uncreative story, Finn would just naturally transcends to goodness because the writers wants it so, but in Star Wars that won’t fly; here we get a gradual development of the character arc, and Rose is the facilitator of said arc in TLJ, the commoner who shows Finn what life among the 99% is about. It is because of Rose that Finn transforms from a selfish (ready to sacrifice everyone in the Resistance – not to mention all who will suffer at the hands of the First Order – to save himself and his one true friend) and suicidal (ready to end his life in a pointless display of courage) child soldier into a compassionate hero of the galaxy!

Your right, Rose has not lived Finn’s life; she’s an ordinary civilian, which is why she is exactly the right person to teach Finn about real life and the plight of the common people. She is absolutely the right person to ground him from the tyrannical way of life shown him by First Order propaganda and indoctrination and to show him that the world is worth fighting for rather than to run away and hide from the First Order. Finn needs to connect with real people, and Rose is the realest person in Star Wars thus far.

He knows this already. He’s a child soldier of the First Order, stolen from his parents at a tender age, so young he doesn’t even know his birthname. When he rejects this life, his instinct is to run and hide from the First Order. Of course, that won’t work for our story, and someone needs to anchor him to the greater struggle of the galaxy, and again, that someone is Rose.

Hm… really? If this is the case, then Star Wars is obviously not for you. The “ungrateful screwballs” you talk about is the Resistance fighting nail and teeth to stop the rise of the Evil Galactic Empire 2.0. Finn is one part of that crew, and a very important part of it even though he tries his best to leave it all behind and run. And where to you get that Rose & Co. doesn’t respect Finn from? There isn’t a single moment of disrespect shown Finn by any of the heroes in either of the two ST films we have thus far. Poe respects Finn enough to trust his word and run away with him, and then trust him enough take Finn with him on the crucial mission to find BB-8 and what he carries, the very reason Poe is on Jakku in the first place. Rey respects him so much she fights to keep him from choosing the cowards way out, to run and hide in the Outer Rim Territories. And the Resistance command respects Finn so much they trust his word (quite wrongly I might add, ‘cause Finn has no interest in actually helping save the galaxy) that they let HIM lead the mission to sabotage Starkiller base! Rose respects him so much she is willing to abandons her post to go with him to Canto Bight, knowing he’s only interested in getting the transponder thingy away from the doomed fleet, and then later she risks her own life to stop him killing himself. I believe that you and I might have very different ideas of what respect is?

(Technically, the First Order names Finn, but I know what you mean). Again, you are correct, Finn is not a dog. He is, however, a child soldier with little experience of human warmth and friendship, a man who has broken with everything he knew and is in a constant state of panic throughout TFA. Finn also expresses regret that he was stolen from his family and he clearly does not like the First Order. If Rose tells him what he should fight for, it is to fight for justice against the First Order who wronged Finn so and to keep the evil bastards from doing what they did to Finn to other kids in the galaxy. To take up the fight against the First Order is the logical conclusion to Finn’s struggle in TFA, and he needs Rose to show him that rather than running from that which he fears, he ought to fight to help stop the evil that scarred him spread to other innocent people.

No, we did not have any scenes where Rose & Finn sits down to talk about his man-feelings, and neither did we have scenes of Han, Luke, & Leia talking about Han’s man-feelings in ANH as L&L tried to convince Han to fight the good fight instead of choosing the selfish route. And by the Whill’s am I glad we didn’t, ‘cause we got those exact man-feeling scenes in the PT and they are… not good. Instead, Rose shows concern for everyone suffering under the yoke of the First Order and the 1%ers who help facilitate their reign of terror, and that clearly includes a concern for stolen babies forced into child soldier service for the First Order.

I really like Finn. I think he is a fantastic character, full of conflict and potential, and expertly portrayed by John Boyega, a great addition to Star Wars that helps widen the franchise’s horizon. (And that is without even touching the entire diversity thing, which, for the record, I support wholeheartedly!). Rose, however, takes nothing away from him, not a one thing; on the contrary, she is the facilitator who helps him transcends his past and step into his heroic future; in essence, Rose is the Yoda or Obi-Wan to Finn’s Luke.

As I said in my original post, I really struggle to understand the fanboy hate against Rose. You are, of course, allowed to disagree with me, sir, but I cannot grasp the hatred.

 

I'm pretty sure they're referring to his life prior to his time in the First Order. You know he had a family like everyone else, right? He just doesn't remember them because unlike everyone else he doesn't have the luxury of having known even one of his family members.

I beg to differ, but whatever.

Except Maz already taught him that lesson in TFA. This is why people including myself are disappointed with the way his arc is little more of a rehash of the one he had in TFA.

So, let me get this straight. You're saying Finn's wants and feelings shouldn't matter if they conflict with those of Rose and the Resistance? I'm of the opinion that his feelings should have been heard because then it doesn't look so much like he's being forced into the Resistance by the narrative. This is one of the main points of contention people have with Finn's arc in TLJ. That man-feelings thing, what is that about? To be honest, as a guy I'm a little offended by this. Are you suggesting that men shouldn't have their feelings heard unless they fit a certain narrative?

 

You do realize the FO tried to influence him his whole life. What sense does it make to have a random stranger that he has no connection to being able to convince him that he should fight for them in less than 24 hours because of her reasons? Why not his own reasons? Why is that so hard to convey for his character? His purpose was having something to fight for. If he was asked why are you fighting? His answer would sound ridiculous to the average person. So you mean to tell me the only reason you're fighting is because of them? Chewbacca is already doing that. Why are we giving the same stories to lead characters?

An attempt at man shaming. Every person's feelings matter. Including men. If we want to get along with one another. We should be mature enough to understand that others have feelings besides our own, and they count. We become better for it when we acknowledge it.

 

Ah, right. Yes, that does make sense. The argument was that Finn should discover who his original parents were. I saw the statement in a more metaphorical meaning; my bad.

Again, not a bad point. However, Maz doesn’t so much convince Finn to become a Resistance fighter, but rather convincing him he shouldn’t abandon his friend. Finn is still deceiving the Resistance later on, and thereby endangering them and the people they try to protect, for selfish (yet very understandable) reasons; to find Rey. I maintain that it is with Rose that Finn completes the transformation journey starting in Maz’ castle and joins the good fight. Personally, I don’t see that as a rehash, but rather as a continuation and escalation of plot points in a story arc.

Um… no? I didn’t say anything about Finn’s feelings (fear of the First Order and a desire to flee their influence) not mattering; they are absolutely crucial to his character, his development, and his role in the series. As for Finn’s feelings being heard, they are heard throughout TFA, by Rey and Han at least, and to Rose in TLJ. My point is that by allowing him to run away and hide, Finn’s arc effectively ends and we (i.e. the film) needs him to rise above his fear and begin fighting for things bigger than himself. I bet the Star Wars universe is full of people who ran away from danger, but they don’t generally make it into the movies.

As for the man-feeling thing, I meant absolutely no offence; I used the term in an attempt at jest, and take it back if it offends… my bad. Feelings are, of course, a great thing and the driving force of any drama. Just look at Luke, my own personal hero in Star Wars (and if I am honest, in my life since childhood onwards), who is at a very dark and emotional place in TLJ, and he HAS ran away from his troubles without it solving anything. Luke is raw with dark emotions, his feelings displayed on the surface for all (well, Ray, really) to see, and Mark Hamill’s performance of the character and his feelings is amazing and awe-inspiring… a great piece of art and story. Feelings are awesome.

My point was that scenes where the main characters discusses their feelings tend to be pretty awful affairs, and it is better to display the feelings through acting than through exposition and dialogue. I believe, however, that Rose’s concern for Finn specifically is demonstrated by her actions towards him, and that her concern for the downtrodden in general (among whom I count child soldiers like Finn) is pretty apparent in her character. Rose’s concern for Finn’s feelings doesn’t mean she gives up on him and let him run and hide/commit suicide, but rather that she fights for the man with everything she has, intervening when he’s about to make unfortunate choices… as any good friend would do. Finn needs – as a character in the story at least, and probably on a personally level too – to overcome his fear and fight against the terrible First Order for the greater good of all (to which fight he brings a unique set of skills and insights, which is part of why this character is such a great invention).

My apologies, but I don’t quite understand your argument. I might just be tired. Anyway, I think my reply, in short, is that:
a) we want Finn to listen to Rose because she’s right (this whole franchise is about fighting evil and promoting good). A Star Wars where the heroes doesn’t fight the bad guys isn’t really Star Wars.
b) because no man is an island. Everyone is part of a tribe and everyone’s responsible for making lives better for the whole. Selfishness as a character trait, especially in mythological, fairytale, morality play stories like Star Wars films doesn’t really work, unless they are there to be overcome for the greater good. (You know, like it was for Han, Lando, Jyn, Luke in TLJ, and probably many more). The only major character in Star Wars who is allowed to descend into selfishness and gloom is Anakin, but his story both follows a predetermined plot (he HAS to end up as the broken monster that is Darth Vader) and is an attempt at a powerful, Greek style, tragedy. A story where people leave Finn alone to disappear into some dark corner where the First Order won’t find him would be rather pointless for the ST.

Not an attempt at man shaming (never my intention), but I agree. Empathy is where relationships come from, and we’re nothing without our relationships. But listening to our fellows’ feelings doesn’t mean we should allow every self-destructive and morally wrong emotion-driven decision to pass; and if I (theoretically) should happen to see you attempting to jump from a bridge, my friend, you better believe I would try my best to stop you, regardless of your feelings at the time!

 

???
SKB is charging and targeting the planet they're on to annihilate it - what more danger can they be in? If he hadn't deceived them perhaps they don't launch the mission and then what? They all die right? So...

In the beginning Finn wants to run, but then he finds something more to fight for... now which movie am I talking about TFA or TLJ?

We need him? Must be two "we"s. The "We" that I know have been saying we need for him to self-interrogate and draw from his life experience to make any life altering decisions. I mean he is self-propelled to leave the F.O. but Rian says, he MUST join the Resistance and he MUST have a tour guide to get him there. No organic development whatsoever, just a chosen plot forcing characters to take unnatural and counter-intuitive action.

Not for nothing but Luke was as much a victim of plot driven writing as Finn. His emergence in TLJ as a disheveled, faithless, curmudgeon is no more natural than Finn hitting a "Do-Loop" in TLJ and repeating the TFA arc.

I have no problem with KMT, I look forward (hopefully) to seeing her in other films. The problem I have with Rose isn't Rose herself it's how Rian utilized her in the movie; i.e. Finn's Conscience. Rian went for a "Devil and Angel" sitting on your shoulders paradigm by design (DJ and Rose) respectively. The problem is that Finn HAS a conscience, it is on full display when we are first introduced to him on Jakku. It STARTS the movie. He doesn't need anyone to act as a surrogate conscience. But alas, in Rian's story where the story he wants to tell is more important than the characters, natural character development doesn't matter (and suffers accordingly)

You don't have to commit your life to the Resistance to fight evil. There are several characters who come and go and only fight when it makes sense to them. The OT doesn't introduce us to a Rebel Army, it's a Rebel Alliance. There is no need to formally join unless you are self-compelled. If Rian hadn't wasted bandwidth jerking around with the Canto Bight experiment (and patch work themes) they could have spent time allowing Finn to decide on his own that HE wanted to fight the F.O. because of something intrinsic to his life and persona instead of Rose's

Han, Lando, Jyn, and Maz all join the fight when they decide is right, and in the case of Han and Maz come and go in that fight as suits them.

Would you have stopped Holdo from they Hyperspace attack? Self-sacrifice is often self-destructive but you won't always get to assess their moral or emotional drivers when the action is taken place. Rose could have been a useful character, but not as a proxy-brain for Finn. He needed to make his own decisions based on his life and persona, not Rose's tragic Mining Planet story. Rose the character doesn't work, not because people are fan boys (which can be interpreted as a lazy characterization and attempt to silence opposing voices by turning them into caricature - it's been done a lot) but because her role was poorly conceived and written.

 

This is a really good point and one I hadn't even thought about.

It's really mind-boggling as to why the narrative presents Finn's choices as an either or proposition. He's good if he joins and bad if he doesn't as if there's middle-ground. This doesn't even fit with what's established in TFA. Might I remind everyone that he forewent his chance to escape to the outer-rim to help Rey. Every choice he made in TFA was his own from escaping the First Order and helping Poe escape to getting BB8 back to the Resistance base to helping blow up Starkiller. He did all that and not one time was his help presented as being negated because he wasn't a Resistance member. There was a middle-ground there. Then TLJ comes around and presents the choice to not join the Resistance as automatically being complicit in First Order rule whether it be through apathy or outright support. Excuse me, but does fighting all those stormtroopers and Kylo not count because Finn wasn't a card-carrying member of the Resistance? Because if you can watch the first seven saga movies and Rogue One then watch TLJ present not being a member of the "good guy" organization as automatically being in support of the bad guys in some way and accept it as a long running part of Star Wars, then you obviously weren't paying attention. Not to the rest of those movies or any of the animated shows or comic books for that matter.

Let me also add that it falls flat for a character like Finn to be pushed into joining the Resistance when as far as the movies have shown, there's nothing special about him. I've asked this question before and I'll ask it again, what is special about Finn that he in particular absolutely has to be a part of the Resistance? The movies have never presented him as anything but an ordinary soldier (unless you believe he's force-sensitive). No one in TLJ, besides Rose briefly even so much as treat him as anything but a regular guy.

 

Thanks for the reply. We fundamentally disagree about these things and I don't have anything else to say that wouldn't be just a repetition of arguments already posted above. I don't believe in circular argument discussions and I have nothing more to add.

...except regarding Holdo. Holdo committed (as you say) an act of self sacrifice. Finn's attempted suicide was not that. (I am willing, however, to grant that Finn might have believed his suicide charge would save the day, but speeding a rickety speeder into the barrel of a cannon that was tearing at huge blast gates that TIE fire couldn't damage would clearly have accomplished little). I maintain that Rose was entierly justified in saving Finn from himself.

But Yeah. We disagree on things and that is fine. I still fail to understand the hatered against Rose.

 

Finn has been used as the Subject Matter Expert on all things FO (something many of us who are regulars to this particular thread have found ridiculous and a way to pigeon hole him but that notwithstanding) if he believes it should work, there is no reasonable "out-of-universe" argument against it.

As much as I don't like TLJ, I was not one of the people that could join in on the "Physics Problems Critiques" with TLJ because - it's SW. And in SW, we can see a planetary system being destroyed light years away, and where Torpedoes fired at an exhaust shaft can turn 90 degrees to enter said shaft. But the same argument that says we can't apply our real world Physics to the Bombers at the beginning of TLJ, says we can't apply our real world Physics to the Speeders at the end of TLJ. Either Physics applies or it doesn't (and it doesn't). So all we're left with is in-universe information. In universe the person who knows the FO (from the ST gas masks, to confusing TIEs censors by flowing low, to the existence of a thermal oscillator on SKB, to HyperSpace tracking, to the Battering Ram Canon) is Finn. He's the only one that even knows what it is when the canon shows up. If he believes he can take it out, it can be taken out.

As for the dislike for Rose character, maybe the way to characterize going forward is to say you don't agree. There have been several explanations in this thread as to why people do not like how she was used. You don't agree with them and that's fine, but it has been explained. Also if you just want to talk about Rose without having to wrangle with aspects of Finn, you can try this thread (warning: it is very lightly populated but if you bump it back up to the top of the forum maybe someone else who likes or wants to talk about Rose will engage). Also if that thread doesn't interest you some of these threads might.