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Rey is more powerful than the Chosen One, his offspring, any dark side user, everyone

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by YubNubBub, Jan 8, 2018.

  1. tm0910196

    tm0910196 Guest

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    Yeah, I would suggest she was a Mary Sue in TFA, but that TLJ does a lot to fix that.
     
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  2. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Simple answer is: It's fun and exciting to watch a badass!

    I for one am very, very happy to finally have one on the Star Wars screen. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  3. nightangel

    nightangel Rebel Official

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    a badass with a cool character arc would have been awesome, but an invincible character with no progression won't do it.
     
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  4. Darth Basin The Greatest

    Darth Basin The Greatest Rebel Official

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    I really can care less about Rey now. She's a nobody alright. A nobody 2 me. I wont shed 1 tear if she dies (won't happen) in 9.

    I despise KR. He killed my boy Han. He tried 2 kill Luke & FACPOV he did. He didn't save his mom from Space.



    BUT......




    I find that creep a thousand times more intresting then Ms. Perfect.
     
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  5. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    Kylo is a wet blanket and I ain't going to root for someone just because of bloodlines. As for Rey? Am glad she was 'random' because all this bloodlines stuff sounds so much like the belief of Arian race. However I don't find her engaging as character anymore. I love Daisy but dislike Rey. Mainly because of Bad lazy writing. Am sick of white male angst. I find that more alienating than the Mary Sue trope. Film after film after film. It's bloody boring. The only bloody character worth saving is Finn.
     
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  6. Rodriq

    Rodriq Rebelscum

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    Has Rey created a doppelganger from a distant planet already?
     
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  7. p03

    p03 Force Sensitive

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    Anyway am sorry if I came across as snappy am just so frustrated with what has happened with Rey and not just her Luke as well. Everything subverted to prop up a character that's just meh. Imaging making Han and Leia into bad parents. Luke a murderous uncle? That has nothing to do with Rey. That's Rian destroying characters for Kylo empathy.

    But yeah Rey just seems like a Duracell bunny going on and on and on and it gets irritating and in the end it becomes pointless. Soulless even.:(
     
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  8. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    Rey has progression, just not one based on skill...thank god.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  9. Ammianus Marcellinus

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    She wasn't a Mary Sue in TFA either in my opinion. But at least the criticism of TFA was understandable and you could have a decent discussion about it. Some people obstinately cling to the accusation for TLJ. They really want her to be a Mary Sue.... :p
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018, Original Post Date: Feb 28, 2018 ---
    "You first have to acquire 1500 XP in Saber Mastery Skill before you can upgrade to Saber Fury! She needs to perform 13 decapitations of low tier enemies to acquire the 1500 XP to level up in the first place!"
    --- Double Post Merged, Feb 28, 2018 ---
    No only Gary Stue did that :p
     
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  10. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Now I could argue each of your points individually, but there's little point to it when your basic premise is wrong. To put it bluntly:


    To quote Luke, "the Force is not a power you have. It's not about lifting rocks." You are confusing strength in the force with DBZ power levels. Just because his midi-chlorian count was over nine thousand doesn't mean he was powerful. The jedi isn't the powerful one, the Force is. The Sith wants to believe they are the powerful one, but it's still the Force. Anakin wasn't the chosen one just because he was more powerful than everyone. To be honest he wasn't, and when he thought he was that's when he got a triple amputation. He was the Chosen One because the Destiny of the Force and Galaxy was on his shoulders. When the Force was shrouded in Darkness, he was the one had the destiny to either make it even darker or to balance it (and he did both). Palpatine wanted him as an apprentice because controlling Anakin meant controlling the Galaxy. When Anakin chose the Dark Side, the Force itself became even Darker. When he cast off his master, the Force itself balanced because the chosen one was finally balanced (acting out of love, but not fear). Anakin's true power as the chosen one was mastery over the Fate of the Galaxy, not being a better duelist, a stronger force pusher, etc.

    Thus far, Rey does not have this power. The Galaxy doesn't revolve around her decisions or her actions. She's skilled and powerful, but Fate seems little interested in her actions. She contributed nothing to the destruction of Starkiller base. She barely was useful in TLJ, and that was just simple telekinesis. She tried to change the Destiny of the Galaxy by turning Ben Solo the way Luke turned Anakin, but that failed.

    Rey's only more powerful than Luke in that she's bolder and more confident in what she can achieve, I suppose that lack of confidence is the one trait Luke has in both ESB and TLJ. That's strength of character. But if you define power as the ability to affect change, Rey has almost nothing to her at the moment. Her great moment to define the Galaxy hasn't come yet. We'll see then just how powerful she is....... or isn't.
     
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  11. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    It depends how you depict that badass. There's a reason why "from zero to hero" is a thing. A character must grow beyond themselves and this is incredibly difficult if you already start out as an overpowered character. To me Rey is completely unrelateable. Her motives are unclear. She is altruistic but we don't know why, powerful but we don't know why either. I didn't have these issues with Jyn Erso. As a social outcast who had to fight for her survival she was egoistical and a "coward" in the beginning of the movie which is exactly what you would expect from someone with her past. She suffered a lot throughout the movie and managed to become a true hero by the end of it. Learning the truth about her father actually mattered instead of being just another case of the director toying with fans' expectations for the sake of it. I am happy for you if you can enjoy watching her character on screen. I know what it feels like, I was a huge fan of her too when TFA came out. But what I interpreted as the actions of a chosen one back then I now identify as bland writing. Space James Bond doesn't really make a compelling character in my oppinion.
    --- Double Post Merged, Mar 1, 2018, Original Post Date: Mar 1, 2018 ---
    I agree, there are no powerlevels and I don't like the concept of a midichlorian count but to suggest that there are no rules is farfetched. Pretty much everyone on this message board has an idea of what a forceuser can and ca't do based on previous observations. If you asked fans if the force should allow a forceuser to lift an entire mountain most of them would probably say no. They would most likely even find it ridiculous to even suggest such a thing. There are obviously rules we base our expectations on and whenever a character "overperforms" compared to other characters people will ask why. If there is no answer to their question a character becomes overpowered and in some cases unrelateable as a result.. It doesn't matter if we're talking about Starkiller pulling a Star Destroyer down from the skies or Rey mastering the force in a couple of days. Both defy what we have learnt to expect from the force. This isn't inherently a bad thing but there needs to be an explaination why they can bend the rules that are obviously limiting others. They never did that with Starkiller but there's still hope for Rey in IX. However, "she's so powerful because the force works in mysterious ways" won't cut it. It would only raise the question why the force never acted this way in 40 years of Canon.
     
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  12. Jayson

    Jayson Force Sensitive

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    I'm personally tired of this narrative.
    It's currently been beat to death in the last couple of decades after it became a focal point in the 90's.

    We didn't always require this of heroes in stories, and I can still go back and watch Billy Budd and fully enjoy it without requiring Billy to learn how to be a hero along the way because the narrative isn't about Billy learning to become a hero, but instead uses Billy's altruistic nature to examine the moral weight of being required to kill a man who is good because he has done an action that was wrong.

    A more recent, and somewhat rare case, The Professional, is another example where our hero isn't bothered with the task of learning to become heroic in skill, but instead focuses on becoming socially connected to his humanity. This would have been clumsy to examine if we were busy waiting for him to get up to speed on being a badass.

    Back from the older days, pretty much anything with John Wayne or Clint Eastwood would not really work if we require every hero to be a "zero to hero" (everyman hero) archetype.

    There's plenty of these throughout film history, but the point is that it liberates the time to focus on other matters than whether the character can do something.
    It then becomes about whether the hero will do something.

    We don't ever wonder if The Man With No Name can do something.
    Instead, we're more wondering if he will choose to do so; it becomes a moral play.

    Rey so far has had an existential narrative where she is thrust into a role that she didn't ask for, didn't entirely want, and didn't relate to as herself, and in this narrative she is trying to figure out who she is to herself. She regularly leans on everyone else to provide context about herself and only at the end of TLJ did she finally stand up and rely on her own self as her definition of self, and embrace it.

    She also has to be the one to make a choice as to who or what gets her power, which still isn't yet fully answered (though hints seem to indicate that she's more of a "no one gets my power" kind of choice).

    I don't really see any reason to be able to relate to every character in this sense. It's a bit boring to do so all of the time.
    Yes, writing, etc... but honestly it gets a bit tiring.
    Can I just get a hero and enjoy watching them for once?

    We've only been on this narrative trend for a few decades. There are plenty of narratives where I know next to nothing about the character in these regards and the story is brilliant as a result of the lack of a character backstory psychotherapy session.
    Not every hero needs to be a hyperbolic variation of our regular relatable selves.
    They can be unrelatable and be good because of it.

    I'm quite happy accepting Rey as altruistic because that's who she is. Why not?
    If I meet someone on the street who is that way tomorrow and they're in their 20's or 30's, I'm not going to call bantha poodoo because they don't have a believable motivation in their backstory for their behavior.
    They just are. I don't have to relate to that behavior; I have to relate to their person.

    I can't relate to Hitler's logic or his behavior, but I sure as hell can relate to his person as a human being...that's what makes him friggen scary as hell.

    Rey is pretty far from Space James Bond, though I'd definitely go for that.
    Rey is far more existential than James Bond ever gets to be.

    Jyn Erso was alright, but Rey is far more interesting because we get to watch her develop her sense of self over quite an array of scenarios and narrative time, whereas Erso was pretty brief and a bit like a better written Indiana Jones' Marion.


    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
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  13. Use the Falchion

    Use the Falchion Force Sensitive

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    @Jayson, I just wanted to say that I saw you posted in this thread and immediately rushed to check it out because I knew you were about to say something wickedly smart and/or analytical. You did not disappoint.

    As for the discussion, I'm WAY too late to get involved and don't care to so I'll say:

    Why does it matter?
    Did being the Chosen One immediately mean that Anakin HAS to be the absolute limit for Force Users? Or was he just a peak to overcome?
    Does Luke being Anakin's son mean that he's actually stronger than Anakin ala Gohan vs Goku? Or was he just better attuned to what the Jedi SHOULD be to reach their full potential?

    Honestly, there are two ways to justify it in my mind if you care:

    The first is that Rey ins't more powerful in the PT sense of the Jedi ala "more Midichlorians," nor is she more gifted than any other Jedi. She's just more open to what the Jedi should be than any other character we've seen (maybe with the exception of OT Yoda and potentially Qui-Gon Jinn). And that openness is what makes her so attuned to the Force.

    The second way is the "Let the Story Finish" way. See how the story pans out post Ep IX, and then see if your complaints hold weight. It's fine to judge a movie as it stands alone, but I find that for complaints to truly stand, you need to see the finished picture. And we haven't yet.


    EDIT:

    Or here's another way to think of it. Think of the Force like two gauges: Potential and Willingness.

    Anakin had the most potential with his Midichlorians (gasp! I've said the Taboo word twice now /s) but his Willingness was hampered by starting too late traditionally, his love for Padme, Palpatine's machinations, and the dogma of the Jedi Order.

    Luke stands in the middle. He was FAR more open to learning about the Force and setting aside his pride than Anakin was, but his potential might not have been as high as Anakin's. He wasn't he Chosen One; he was just a boy who wanted adventure.

    Rey stands on the opposite side of Anakin in a way. We don't know her potential, but her Willingness is overflowing. So instead maybe we're just seeing more of the "opposite" spectrum.
     
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  14. BobRoss

    BobRoss Guest

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    I agree that we do not need to see every hero grow from hero to zero in every movie but it has been a fundamental aspect of Star Wars. Our main characters, no matter if it's Obi Wan, Anakin/Vader, Luke or Kylo are constantly evolving and grow as characters and in the ways of the force. This concept of evolution through experience and hard training is a core element to the series and Rey doesn't follow this narrative, making her feel out of place. The movies you quoted work perfectly fine with characters who are already in full posession of their power but again, this is not the narrative previous SW movies had. The movies you quoted do have a different focus and are standalone movies, not sequels to an already established franchise. Just as it would be weird for a medival heroic epic to have a character who needs to learn a skillset first instead of being born with it, Rey contradicts the established narrative of the Canon. Her "Okay, I'll do it" attitude is not backed up by a believeable character or event.

    Luke had all the reason in the galaxy to figth the empire after seein his aunt's and uncle's burnt corpses. The same cannot be said about Rey. She's a plot device like Snoke, only important to the developement of Kylo who is a far more interesting character than her. Her incredible power is unecessary as the story would work just as well if she was just as strong as all the other "normies" in canon. Her altruism alone motivates her to fight in a war she has only learnd of mere days ago. Meanwhile Luke, who literally was "A new hope" in the OT lost all his will to fight and believe in the good in people, his most defining character traits in the OT. I don't mind RJ's interpretation of Luke, he tried to turn him into a more believeable character. But the contrast between RJ's approach to Luke and his approach to Rey is almost comical. This isn't a Spaghetti western where the hero is supposed to shoot faster than anyone else and save the day undefeated. Sorry but I don't buy her character and it is up to IX to make her feel more in place with the rest of the saga. I personally hope for a switch (Kylo = good, Rey = bad) because we have seen Kylo grow and face defeat many times and Rey, undefeated and almost perfect would make a menacing villain. But I doubt that they will do this.
     
    #194 BobRoss, Mar 1, 2018
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  15. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    I'd say the Force is perfectly capable of moving a mountain. I sincerely doubt it would support or work with a Lightsider to do it, as moving a mountain would be incredibly disruptive to ecosystems and would disrupt the flow of nature. I also think any Darksider that got powerful enough to try and bend the Force to its will on that level would probably pay too much for it and end up dead. So yeah, rules are good. Such as "projecting your image across Light-Years of space will kill you."

    I wouldn't compare Starkiller to Rey. Mostly because Rey's problem isn't power, its skill level. She hasn't lifted anything that shouldn't be lifted, and when it comes to potency and power, that's the Force, not he Jedi. On the other hand, she knows how to do things that really should be taught, practiced and refined. It's her rapid untaught mastery. On the other hand, Starkiller's skill level was perfectly explained (a lifetime of training under Vader), but his problem was unexplained power, performing feats that seemed outrageous even for a Jedi to be able to do. That said, I agree that her ability to master things needs to be explained. If I thought Cartoon Stuff was actually going to play a large role in any of these movies, I'd say that she's destined to take the place of the Daughter from Mortis, just as Anakin was destined to take the place of the Son.

    I think part of that is her confidence level. She just tries things. She's never actually flown before, but she's willing to try, even though she nearly crashes on takeoff. She's never done a Force Persuade, but she's going to try it, get it wrong twice, and then get it on the 3rd go. She has never fought with a lightsaber, but she's willing to try. If she has any lack of confidence in her abilities, she doesn't let it stop her at all. Maybe she's more like Han than we realized ("I never ask that question until after I've done it.") Probably the same thing that got her into a Dark Side Cave. There is potential there for her to get into real trouble. I think that would happen if we hadn't had so much focus on Luke's problems in TLJ. Episode IX is a good chance for her to be 100% on her own, to make mistakes and get in over her head, and then find a way out if it.
     
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  16. The Nerf Herder!

    The Nerf Herder! Rebelscum

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    • I personally don't understand the hate for Rey being a nobody. I would have been so disappointed if they fell back on SW cliches by making her related to someone, plus it would have been way too convoluted and convenient for her to be a Skywalker, Solo, or Kenobi.
    • I had always assumed (and believe that I've read somewhere after TFA) that she had learned to use some very "basic" force abilities after her and Kylo going into one another's minds in the interrogation room. Recent leaks from TLJ novelization even state this. I wish they had mentioned this in the films though. The only reason I think she is able to tap into them to a better degree than Luke was able to, is because she is more willing to believe and give herself to the force, while Luke was not. Her level of power is obviously nothing compared to Snoke and Luke as well.
    • Why is it hard to grasp that she can pilot a ship as well. She clearly states that she knows how to do so in TFA. She must have piloted a ship sometime before then, she just never had left Jakku. Luke does the same thing in ANH and nobody has an issue with him flying.
    • I don't find the being invincible argument very valid. She is clearly overpowered by Kylo on Takodona, tortured and almost killed by Snoke, and can barely keep up with two Praetorian guards while Kylo fights off the majority of them.
    • (JUST MY OPINION!)
     
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  17. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    The galaxy is full of many mysteries
    [​IMG]
     
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  18. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Is that a rockbiter from Neverending Story? Use spoiler tags if you must, but please elaborate on this image. I'm curious and its too small for me to read the dialogue.
     
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  19. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    I don't remember the comic particularly well, and it was kinda vague and confusing, but those are basically sentient mountains. As far as I remember, they had some vague connection to the Force.

    It... wasn't a great comic, but it was an interesting idea.
     
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  20. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Thanks
     
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