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SPECULATION Rey's Not Getting Trained at the Beginning of VIII

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Last Jedi' started by RuccusRob, Dec 28, 2015.

  1. Darthchocolat

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    Ah great.
    I don't think 'another' would be Rey as she wasnt born yet and I doubt the prophecy extended that far.
    But it is kinda cool that Vader brought balance to the force, just to be undone again by Luke because he was to eager in ROTJ.
     
  2. Darth Nole

    Darth Nole Rebel General

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    I think we see Rey trained...she constructs her own lightsaber (double bladed) and in the middle of her truncated training, it is interrupted by the news or vision that Finn has been abducted by Phasma and the First Order. She leaves her training early, due to a vision of the capture of Finn by Phasma and the First Order. The trap is laid. She springs the trap, and is caught by Kylo Ren, now a fully trained Sith Lord. The movie ends with Finn in the custody of the First Order and Rey in the hands of Snoke/Darth Plagueis.
     
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  3. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    Great story. Empire Strikes Back With a Twist is a good name for it.

    There's no reason for Luke to train Rey out of the gate. He left because he felt responsible for Ben. Why would he put another potential mistake into the world?

    The dude exiled himself to the far reaches of uncharted space. Why would he just say "Okay, I'll train you Rey"?
     
    #43 RuccusRob, Dec 29, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
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  4. KiraRey_KyloRen

    KiraRey_KyloRen Rebel General

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    Because he doesn't have a choice, she already is powerful in the Force, not training her would be the same as deliver her to Snoke in a silver plate
     
  5. DarthNorgaard

    DarthNorgaard Rebelscum

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    a little bit of topic here but i do believe that Kylo Ren wont appear at once in VIII he will probably appear at the second act as a fully fledged Sith Lord, giving Phasma and Hux a little bit of space to develop and at the same time making his appearance that much more menancing.

    Rey wont be trained at once im sure about it!
     
  6. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    No it won't. She's strong, but Luke is likely more powerful than Yoda. Surely if he trains Rey it will leave little doubt that of her as a risk.
     
  7. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    Just a couple errors of continuity that I've seen by some people in this thread.

    For starters. People need to know that Pablo Hidalgo, Lucasfilm extraordinaire, has confirmed on Twitter that Rey was sent to Jakku BEFORE the attack on the Jedi Academy. Rey was also left on Jakku at the age of 5. Thus, she was not trained at the Jedi Academy at all. She would have just started to train if that were the case. She would not have learned the things that she did in the Force Awakens. Those were natural gifts Rey possesses, not acquired skills.

    Also, many of you seem to believe that Luke just got up and abandoned his friends because he couldn't bare the pain from the death of his students and betrayal of his pupil. HOWEVER, this is from "a certain point of view". We really don't have enough information to establish this as FACT because Luke has not spoken on the indecent. Episode VIII could give us a totally different perspective on the events that took place.

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    As far as the OP goes, I think that Rey has earned her right to train with Luke. My reasoning is the story of TFA. It is a Hero's quest to train with the Great Elder that possesses knowledge and skill's beyond the Hero's wildest dreams. It is a typical story scenario. By finding the map and possessing the lightsaber (possessing tangible items), Rey has gained passage to meet Luke and earned a spot to train with Luke. But more importantly, she found what is important about herself in her quest for these items that is much more important. These are the types of traits a Wise Elder character looks for in someone to train.
     
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  8. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    We know from Han that this is the reason he left. Han Solo, his brother in law and best friend. You're right that there could be more to it, but according to Occam's Razor, why bother introducing another alternative answer when we're given a rational one from a credible source?

    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Heh. It's not about Rey, or what's she earned. It's about Luke and what he feels comfortable with. There's no reason he should feel obligated to train Rey, especially if you're right about her not being trained previously. This notion that she going to be trained at the top of VIII makes no sense to how the character of Luke has been presented to us in TFA; and the fact that he says nary a word suggests that he's not going to have magical off-screened character development.

    The medium is show, don't tell. If Luke is reluctant to train new pupils, they will SHOW US.

    Another reason: Luke is the strongest Jedi on record more than likely. If he trains Rey now then all of those complaints about her being too powerful too soon will look like premature concerns.

    So from a standpoint of story it makes no sense or her to learn from him now; and from a stand point of narrative balance, it's far too soon for her to learn from him now.

    All signs point to him not wanting to play ball.
     
  9. Darth Nole

    Darth Nole Rebel General

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    Luke reluctantly trains Rey because if he doesn't, he knows that at some point, Snoke will.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2015 ---
    Luke reluctantly trains Rey because if he doesn't, he knows that at some point, Snoke will.
     
  10. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    I think that's the realization, but it's not one he's going to have off-screen.

    Right now I'm sure in Luke's mind, training a person strong in the Force is the most risky thing to do. It makes no sense for him to just do it after all we've been told about him.
     
  11. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    I don't have the answer. I'm just stating that until we here it from Luke, it's just Han and Leia's own speculation. We really don't know all of the details. I think we will soon though.
    _______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


    Actually, it's about both.

    I think that he will be hesitant to train Rey. I don't think it will happen IMMEDIATELY. Yoda was hesitant. However, it would be a major dissatisfaction to the audience if the entire first movie was spent finding Luke only for Luke to have to spend an entire 2nd movie to decide on training Rey.

    Also with the fate of the galaxy on the shoulders of Rey, I feel confident she will be trained rather soon into the movie if not at the beginning.

    Agreed

    We’ve already seen arrogance in Rey. We also do not know what Snoke is capable of. Also, clearly Luke is not all powerful if he could not foresee the attack on the academy. There are at least a few different factors at play here. Overall, I’m saying we really don’t have much information for or against this at the moment.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2015 ---
    Also what he said.
     
  12. Rey24B

    Rey24B Rebel General

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    I think that Luke might be reluctant to train her at first (after what happened with Kylo). This may end up leading to another FG Obi Wan appearance, since he has "experience" in this regard. But I don't think that it will take the whole film for him to agree to train her. Maybe a third, but no more. I also think that we'll get more info on the first Jedi Temple and their early history.
     
  13. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    Generally, a few years pass inbetween Episodes...so I'm thinking if Luke trains her, we won't see it on screen. We'll pick up 3 years after TFA and Luke and Rey will spring into action together. No training sequence, no montage. Just something like, "good job learning stuff. now lets go".
     
  14. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    There's a lot wrong with this.

    Firstly

    "I think that he will be hesitant to train Rey. I don't think it will happen IMMEDIATELY. Yoda was hesitant. However, it would be a major dissatisfaction to the audience if the entire first movie was spent finding Luke only for Luke to have to spend an entire 2nd movie to decide on training Rey. "

    The audience en masse doesn't have a clue what's going to happen. The only ones with preconceived notions bout training are hardcore fans. Even so, even in TFA Luke didn't speak, Han died, and the trio never was seen on the same screen. And that was the far more appeasing JJ. Rian Johnson isn't going to rush the story just so fans can get their fix. It just doesn't compute to resolve that pivotal conflict of the story so quickly. That conflict being Luke's return to the fight.

    And where did this "the fate of the galaxy rests on Rey" stuff come from? What Han says about Luke's departure is at least on record. But that comes from nowhere in canon.

    From what the movie tells us, the fate of the galaxy still rests with Luke. He's the only one that can train a new generation and to bring balance to the force as of now, according to Lor San Tekka, Han, Leia, Maz, and even Snoke. And resolving that plot point so early kills the build up and essentially takes away from some of Rey's confirmed purpose: being the one to convince Luke Skywalker to return to the fold.

    I see a lot of fans writing the story with what they think happens, and from what I can tell from just what we've been shown, a lot of it just makes no narrative sense.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 29, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 29, 2015 ---
    Think about it.

    What was the point of Luke leaving if it's that easy? Why is all his arc off camera?

    KK asked JJ one question. Who is Luke Skywalker? Why would this question, the one that convinced him into the project, be a question resolved sometime within 3 years before VIII?

    The story falls apart if Rey learns too early.
     
    #54 RuccusRob, Dec 29, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
  15. Cole

    Cole Force Sensitive

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    So what do you think is going to happen? Luke just says, "no thanks. You keep it. And please leave." ? Or she has convinced Luke to come back to the Resistence, but he still won't train anyone? Or maybe Rey just spends a couple years helping Luke find whatever hes looking for? What do you think happens after Rey holds that saber up to Luke? (genuine question, no sarcasm intended)
     
  16. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    This. Remember Luke has never been the most contemplative guy. He's always been driven by emotion. He wanted to be a Jedi because his father was, he wanted to leave Tatooine because it wasn't exciting, he wanted to stop his training because his friends were in trouble.

    It makes perfect sense for him to say, "This crap is my fault, if I do anything else, I'll make things worse. So nice meeting you Rey, but no.'"

    So I think Rey may have a rapport with him. But she's going to have a tough time convincing him until at least the end of the second act when outside events draws him in fully. I believe, like another poster here, that he may give her casual pointers later on, but he won't be fully invested until he comes to terms with Ben's betrayal not being his fault, or when he realizes that he has the power to remedy the situation.

    I also don't think Rey came to get trained by Luke. I think in her mind she's trying to draw him back the the Resistance, a logical extension of her and Finn's mission in TFA. Training in force is probably an afterthought for her, considering how humble she is concerning her place.
     
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  17. LadyMusashi

    LadyMusashi Archwizard Woo-Woo-in-Chief
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    While "search for Luke" was movie's MacGuffin, The Force Awakens was thematically entirely about acceptance - almost every character goes through the arc that leads to acceptance, whether of their new role in GFFA, power or lack of it, responsibility, etc. If you watch the ending scene, Rey's face goes from overwhelmed and emotional to determined, Luke's final expression (IMO) is resignation. There is no escape from the Force. He will train her - that is Luke's responsibility. Without Jedi there is no balance to the Force. How much of the training we will see it, depends on the time jump and where Rian Johnson decides to start the film (with the Resistance, the FO, Luke & Rey or somewhere else) but I feel we will see at least some of it.
     
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  18. RuccusRob

    RuccusRob Rebelscum

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    The theme may be acceptance, but the overall story is about a man's failure. Maz said it best. "There's one who still can [come back]."

    That means it's not going to be as easy as an episode transition. It's going to be a storied and gradual thing.

    So yes, she'll get trained, but it won't be at the start, and it sure has heck ain't going to be in between 7 and 8. There's no benefit to the story besides a bunch of happy fanboys/girls. Withholding her training, however, gives us a reason to be invested in Luke's backstory, illumination on Rey's backstory, it gives Rey something to do other than pretending to be Daniel-San, it actually respects the setup of the first movie, and it gives Luke the opportunity to make a choice. It's also a logical result of his history leading up to this moment. Plus it keeps questions to a minimum.

    I don't klnow about you, but if I see Rey doing drills and Luke getting his Mr. Miyagi on, I'll be like, "What the heck? I thought he left for a reason?"

    I want this to be done right, and training Rey now isn't smart. We don't know half enough about 30 year older Luke.
     
    #58 RuccusRob, Dec 30, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 30, 2015
  19. odmichael

    odmichael Rebel Official

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    This is where we are at disagreement. It isn't rushing the story. It is slowing it down too much. Also don't act like the majority of people entering the theater have no idea who Luke is. If they don't know, it's not hard to figure out. The whole point of the first movie was made clear to most people that the movie was about finding Luke. He was found and they can assume he will help Rey. Whether that means train or not is one thing. But we all know Luke has to help.

    Also if you think the pivotal conflict of the story is Luke's return to the fight, you are COMPLETELY mistaken. These movies are clearly about the new characters first - not about the old ones. Luke will not be the center of attention no matter how much you want him there. There is a difference between what you want to happen and what will happen and you have crossed that line.


    Rey is our main protagonist. When it is established she is force-sensitive, it is clear that all hope lies on her shoulders. Why have her find Luke then if it didn't mean anything? The entire resistance knows where Luke is. No reason for only Rey to go unless she is important.

    The fate of the galaxy does rest with Luke. But that knowledge will be passed on to Rey.


    You're doing the exact same thing dude!
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 30, 2015, Original Post Date: Dec 30, 2015 ---
    I can agree with some of this. But I don't think it will take as long as you make it seem. I think it will happen rather quickly. There's only so much time the movie can spend on this.
     
  20. Veradun

    Veradun Clone Commander

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    I'm probably going to have to watch the movie again (which wouldn't be a bad thing) but I don't think Han Solo knew for sure why Luke left; it seemed to me like he was offering informed speculation.

    Until I am told otherwise, I'm going to believe in an optimistic interpretation - Luke wasn't simply running away; he was looking for the first Jedi Temple to find information and or guidance (a holocron, a force ghost, something else?) that would help him to correct the mistakes that he made that resulted in his Jedi Academy being wiped out. That also can fit in with him also waiting for someone worthy of taking up the mantle with him and ultimately for him, which Rey could be.

    Again, there are so many questions left unanswered by the movie.
     
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