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Swords and melee fighting in SW and real life

Discussion in 'Random Discussion' started by Star Dude, Aug 10, 2017.

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What’s your favorite melee fight scene from all the Star Wars movies so far?

  1. Darth Maul vs. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon on Naboo

    11 vote(s)
    33.3%
  2. Count Dooku vs. Anakin, Obi-Wan and Yoda on Geonosis

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  3. Count Dooku vs. Anakin and Obi-Wan on board the Invisible Hand

    1 vote(s)
    3.0%
  4. Mace Windu vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. Yoda vs. Darth Sidius on Coruscant

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Anakin vs. Obi-Wan on Mustafar

    2 vote(s)
    6.1%
  7. Chirrut Imwe against Stormtroopers on Jedha

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  8. Luke vs. Darth Vader on Cloud City

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  9. Luke vs. Darth Vader on the 2nd Death Star

    7 vote(s)
    21.2%
  10. Kylo vs. Finn and Rey near Starkiller Base

    5 vote(s)
    15.2%
  1. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    He uses the darkside, you don't access the darkside by being emotionally calm. You get there by being aggressive, angry, hate filled etc... Look at RotJ, when Luke attacks Vader at the end of their fight he isn't emotionalyl calm, but he is very close to touching the darkside.

    First, he clearly didn't care if she died before he fought Finn. He threw her into a tree (could have killed her), 20-30 feet int he air (fall could have killed her), then let her fall (landing could have killed her). Second, if keeping her alive is the most important thing, why fight her at all? Use the force to freeze her again. Disarm her with the force or his lightsaber. Use the force to throw a rock at her head and knock her out. Push her into another tree. etc.....
    --- Double Post Merged, Aug 30, 2017, Original Post Date: Aug 30, 2017 ---
    FOR THE FIRST TIME, HER EYES BLAZING.
    Kylo Ren IGNITES HIS SABER.
    It's REY who charges now -- Kylo Ren immediately on the
    defensive. They BATTLE POWERFULLY -- He is clearly rocked
    by her raw, innate skill.
    EXT. FOREST - NIGHT
    Amid the BARE WHITE TREES, ONLY TWO LIGHTSABERS -- LUKE'S
    BLUE AND REN'S YELLOW-RED -- ILLUMINATE the FLURRIES OF SNOW
    as Rey and Kylo Ren BATTLE HARD.
    She seems to be, impossibly, STRONGER THAN HE IS for half a
    dozen blows -- until he FINDS HIS STRENGTH and FIGHTS BACK --
    MOVING FORWARD and PUSHING REY BACK, into the forest.
    Suddenly a COLOSSAL CHUNK OF THE FOREST RIGHT BEHIND REY
    DROPS AWAY! Rey is suddenly fighting on the EDGE OF A

    MASSIVE, BRAND NEW CLIFF!
    KYLO REN

    You need a teacher! I can show you
    the ways of the Force!

    REY
    The Force.
    Rey closes her eyes for a long beat. When Rey opens them,
    she is centered, fortified, and she POUNDS BACK, SINGLE HANDED
    SWIPES, hitting Ren's gnarly, spitting saber with incredible
    FORCE. It's so fast now, so furious, that Kylo Ren FALLS
    BACK -- She ATTACKS HARDER!
    Ren gets up again but she HITS HIS SABER'S HILT -- HIS BLADE
    GOES FLYING OFF, TUMBLING INTO THE SNOW -- and she SLASHES

    AGAIN AND AGAIN AND HITS KYLO REN SQUARE IN THE HEAD AND
    CHEST. HE GOES DOWN, SUDDENLY A FEARFUL MAN, A LARGE BURN

    SCAR SLASHED ACROSS HIS FACE! He still reaches for his saber.
    And she could kill him -- right now, with ONE VICIOUS STRIKE!
    But she stops. Realizing she stands on a greater edge than
    even the cliff -- the edge of the dark side. The earth
    SHAKES. The earth splits. A gully forms.




    This doesn't sound like Kylo taking it easy on Rey.

    I could buy the force argument here, the problem is it doesn't hold up consistantly throughout hte saga. If the force either guides the actions of people in lightsaber battles, aiding them in those fights, why do heroes like Anakin, Qui-Gon, Mace, Yoda and Luke ever lose a fight?
     
    #121 Canadian Ronin, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  2. Finn_McCool

    Finn_McCool Jedi Commander

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    I don't know I think Kylo was trying to convert Rey to the Darkside. He wanted to teach her the ways of the force. You don't say that when you want to kill someone.

    Its like Luke vs. Vader in TESB. Vader could have slaughtered Luke, but he spared him. I think Kylo has a little crush on Reyyy :rolleyes: lol. Thats why he didn't kill her. Yeah he's overly agressive, because he can't control himself yet. Vader had poise, kylo is wreckless.
     
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  3. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    Yes.
    He throws her to the tree cuz she drew a ranged weapon to a non ranged weapon equipled person. If he wanted her to die he would choke her like he did mitaka. Throw is a defensive move.
    Yeah violent emmotions like hate connect you to the dark side. But thats not what he feels there. He feels guilt. And there is a difference between emotionally distraught and emmotionally focused.
    But i will grant you..its probably not the only thing he feels. Aside of finn inadequacy kylo wipes the flor with him...cuz him he wants to hurt and he is angry with him.....i think when he fights her the guilt comes on strong...stronger. Perhaps because he saw (during interogation) that she thought of han like a father fugure and now he was reminded of theat pain when he saw it in her...i dunno.

    I will tell you this. I learned snowboarding this winter. At the end of the day i mastered all the elements...except toe-heel turn on a slope...for the love of god i couldnt do it. I tried 30 times at least. Was so anxious to do it the first day...but nope...the more i was anxious to do it the worse it was. I couldnt let go. So i went home. Slept. Came morning...my first try...bam...did it...and did it every other time and in reverse and backwards...

    State of mind affects the skill! Im surprised a kendo master like you would argue against this :)
     
    #123 Greywalker, Aug 30, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 30, 2017
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  4. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    IN that moment he is, that doesn't mean he was playing with her before that, wasn't trying to kill her, wasn't fighting hard or anything like that. He clearly wasn't that worried about her safety and trying to convert her when he threw her against the tree.

    If only Kylo had another way to deal with someone shooting at him......... And throwing her into a tree, 30 feet in the air isn't "defensive" and offers many opportunties for Rey to die. If Rey doesn't wake up from that attack, Kylo just picks up the lightsaber after beating Finn and leaves.

    Really? Prove its guilt and not hate. He seems pretty heated to me.

    ANd how good at snowboarding were you the first time you strapping the board on? As good as the teacher?
     
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  5. Greywalker

    Greywalker Jedi Commander

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    Oh yeah...like how?...writting her a text message: Hey Rey pretty please with sugar and cherry on top dont shoot me?

    If it was hate then he wouldnt lose ;)
    (Cuz he would be his most evilsome powerful self...he could freeze her like he did when they first met or stop the laser bolt like he did with Poe...but yet...somehow...he is WEAKENED by the deed of killing his dad...aint that the text in novelization?)

    I went down the (kiddy) slope after 5 min and my teacher held my hands and smiled :p

    'twas not a fight nor a life and death situation
     
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  6. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Maybe I misinterpreted your earlier claim and you weren't referring to the more generalised crossover talents and skills (both mental and physical) that bo fighters and sword fighters share! :rolleyes:
    Because the story-tellers didn't require it to for their story?
    Not "going to" but possibly could under certain circumstances. Your argument makes perfect sense - as long as you choose not to address any of the words and context in my counter-claim! :p

    C'mon, you're an experienced sportsman. Surely you can see a scenario where a beginner on a good day might possibly beat a more experienced opponent - particularly one who's arrogant, carrying a serious injury and is only trying to subdue the other?

    As to the ad hominem, in this case I'm actually speaking from personal experience. I played a lot of tennis and squash as a teenager and took to golf rather successfully as soon as I bought a cheap set from a yard sale.

    Considering my complete inexperience I often put my initial low golf rounds down to "beginners luck" (I actually got progressively worse as you might imagine without training). But I'd be a fool to not acknowledge the hand-eye coordination and mental/physical fitness benefits that racquet sport experience bought to my golf game - despite the different tools, techniques and rules.
    I often think of him like a cat playing with his prey. Perhaps he was lonely, curious and a little mesmerized with this latest challenge?
    You're not wrong. The Force doesn't seem consistent but I think that's an asset to these stories. I sometimes worry that writers may define the mystery away. Then there's always the fact that even the wise Force experienced characters may be wrong in some of their perceptions. Even the masters never stop learning!

    On a real world note, I came across this little clip yesterday about some western samurai misconceptions. If you can stomach the college humor style I'd be curious if you're kendo experience has anything to add to the content...

     
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  7. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    No, I was pointing out that the two weapons are completely different and being proficent with one doesn't mean you'll be good with the other. It'd like comparing golf to tennis.

    So its just sloppy storytelling in TFA to allow the "strong, female lead" to be a mary sue. Then we should stop trying to justify it and just call it what it is.

    1) No, someone has never picked up a sword before is not going to beat a trained, experienced combatant. Just like the golf/tennis example. I am experienced and I'm telling you it wouldn't happen. I've also proved two video examples of how complete novices fair against experienced people.
    2) Kylo was hitting his wound to raise the pain to connect to the force. The script say the wound hampered him but his rage makes up for it. Kylo wasn't at half-strength or something
    3) Nothing leading up to or during the fight BEFORE he says let me train you would indicate he is only trying to subdue her. He is clearly trying to kill her and can't.

    And did you beat an experienced golfer the first time you picked up a club? I've never picked up a tennis racket in my life- what do you think me chances of beating you (when you were at your height) would be?

    I'll watch the video in a bit and respond.
     
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  8. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi General

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    In the hopes of kind of clearing some possible misunderstandings up, I think what's happening here is essentially the debate of: "Is that how the Force works?"
    That's a pretty valid question to ask, but in a thread titled "Swords and Melee Fighting in SW and Real Life" I think it might miss the point by just a smidge.

    I think we can all probably agree on a few things, which themselves apparently raise their own questions:

    1) Kylo Ren is a more trained swordsman than Rey.
    Yet we also know that he's still very much in his own training. How trained is he truly?

    2) Kylo Ren is currently wounded by the bowcaster.
    But does that injury hamper him, or let him feed into the dark side even further?

    3) Rey does seem to have some experience with a staff.
    While those skills may not directly correlate to swordfighting, does Rey have experience with other melee weapons as well?

    4) A Jedi (and Sith) draws their strength from the Force.
    But how powerful is Rey in the Force, and is the Force itself guiding her beyond what little insight she currently has?

    So, I think these are all pretty valid questions in assessint the fight between Kylo and Rey, and I think this conversation deserves (and indeed already has) its own topic.
     
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  9. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    First, kendo itself don't really teach you much about samurai. A lot of beginners start because they like samurai or jedi or something like that. But that stuff normally gets dropped early and rarely are there conversations about samurai and ninja and stuff like that in the dojo. Japanese customs, respect, the way they teach etc... are common but not a lot of history stuff. It is more common in Iaido then Kendo because you're learning technique's that's are 100-300/400 years old and understanding what you're doing is important but its still not really common.

    As for the video. From what I know (and I think I know a bit more then the average person, but I'm by no means an expert) seems mostly correct. Its a bit sloppy, it is less then 10 minutes and there is a whole lot of nuance in this topic missing. For example, they used guns, bows and spears when possible because they are better weapons IN MASSIVE BATTLES, but in one-on-one fights, which were much more common in the Edo period then mass battles the sword was a much better weapon and thats really when we see the raise of the swordsman samurai.

    There were, as far as I know, 3 main.......era's of Samurai/Japanese warriors (this isn't periods of Japanese history, just my way of splitting up the history of the samurai in my own head). Our (the wests) idea of a Samurai is mostly informed by the last era (Edo period) - the swordsman. The first "era" (my term) they were mostly tax collectors and local warriors/militia who were mostly mounted archers and used straight, chinese style swords. There in the Civil War/Sengoku period were they get more organized, the class system gets established, and they are mostly bow/gun/spear wielding warriors. They carried Katana's, normally in the reverse position but they were side-arms. This period is were we get people/characters/heroes like Nobunaga, Hideyoshi, Yukimura, Masamune etc... who are much more popular in Japan then characters like Musashi who we like in the West.

    I also don't see why a movie about a black samurai would better then one about a white samurai....... there were white guys who did become samurai (I do know why he is saying that, I just think its ridiculous).
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 1, 2017, Original Post Date: Sep 1, 2017 ---
    1) We've seen enough of Kylo that, even though he isn't "full trained" yet he is more then a competent swordsman and much more experienced.

    2) From the script -
    FINN
    Come get it.
    Despite his fear, Finn raises his blade in welcome. Kylo
    Ren CHARGES at him - Finn terrified -- Kylo Ren LUNGES but
    Finn DEFLECTS Ren's SPARK-SPITTING blade!
    Kylo Ren TURNS, ATTACKS, CUTS -- amazingly Finn BLOCKS,
    COUNTER-ATTACKS -- clearly IMPRESSES KYLO REN, who only enjoys
    this challenge more!

    Rey RECOVERS, gets her bearings. Her eyes focus on the two
    men fighting, through the trees.
    Kylo Ren is obviously hampered by his wound, yet he attacks
    with a primal SAVAGERY
    -- Finn BLOCKS, turning DEFENSIVE
    moves into OFFENSIVE ones. And he ACTUALLY GETS A HIT IN!
    LUKE'S SABER GRAZING KYLO REN'S ARM! Kylo MOVES BACK --
    wounded, but more enraged than weakened. Kylo Ren CHARGES
    AGAIN -- their WEAPONS POUND, SPARKS FLY, their blades LOCK,
    the men are CLOSE, LIT BY the powerful, CRASHING sabers:
    And Kylo Ren PUSHES FINN BACK, attacks with pure ferocity --
    Finn is stunned -- unprepared for this fierceness.
    Rey sees this -- Kylo Ren unleashes a MERCILESS SERIES OF
    BLOWS, pushing Finn further and further back until he loses
    balance.

    Kylo is hurt, but he isn't fighting at half strength and his offense is still "savage". When Finn injuried him it didn't weaken him at all.

    3) No reason to believe she does.

    4) Again, if the force is "guiding her actions" and making her beat Kylo, why do any heroes - Luke, Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin etc... - lose battles in Star Wars? Its a sloppy reason that doesn't hold up consistently through out the series.
     
    #129 Canadian Ronin, Sep 1, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 5, 2017
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  10. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Just to add the thing about Samurai

    They are far from the only historical figures that we dress up and fictonalize in the modern day. European Knights, Spartans, the American Founding Fathers etc... all become way more mythical over time.

    We also tend to apply our own cultural and modern values on these historical figures. We know that ones honor was important to the samurai, but most people apply our modern, western idea of what honor means and apply it to people who lived hundreds of yeras ago in a different culture.
     
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  11. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    Cheers for your two cents on the vid. It caught my attention mainly because I'm facinated by common misconceptions and enjoy having mine corrected...well, when I'm open enough to let them go that is!
    I don't think you need to prove that experienced fighters can beat novice fighter! I'd bet on the experienced - 100% of the time.
    But I'm still clinging to the general claim that there's bound to be a complete novice who's got lucky against an more experienced opponent hampered by a wound.

    black knight 2.gif

    One of the tenents of probability is that on a long enough timeline some things that have an infinitesimally small likelyhood of happening will eventually occur!
    That's a solid theory. On another thread someone with military experience posited an interesting theory about banging certain wounds sometimes having some temporary trauma/performance benefits.
    Yeah, here I was all sure I remembered some openings he hadn't exploited.
    I just rewatched the duel with the intent of sharing a couple of gifs as proof but now I'm think you're right.
    Even at slow speeds it seems he was treating her as a serious threat. Credit to the choreographers/actors as such fights often don't hold up at slower speeds.
    No wonder he tried to take her out of the equation early!
     
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  12. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    1) Except the script states that Kylo isn't that hampered and his actions in the movie bare this out. The videos I shared also don't show how an experienced personw ould beat an inexperienced one but how.........inept an experienced person really is.

    2) Either way, the wound isnt holding him back.

    3) Thank you.

    The thing about "being played with"......you still die quickly. In Kendo there is a kind of practice called Godo Keiko where students line up and take turns fighting the Sensei's. You can often tell when a Sensei is treating you as a real opponent and when they are playing with you. When they are playing with you - you still get hit (ie - CUT) many times, over and over.
     
    #132 Canadian Ronin, Sep 5, 2017
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2017
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  13. Canadian Ronin

    Canadian Ronin Rebel General

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    Ok, to explore this........ I'll be using the Samurai as my example/comparison for 2 reasons. 1) Know more about them then other mid-evil/middle ages warriors/groups and 2) The Jedi are probably most closely based on them.

    First we need to get rid of a myth that many people have - the Samurai didn't not dislike guns or find them dishonorable or anything like that. They loved guns. The Last Samurai is bantha poodoo. Once guns were introduced to Japan, they produced more firearms then the Europeans countries, combined (in the middle-ages). Like all warriors they wants the best, most effective weapons for any given job. And this is the important part of the argument.

    Now during the Clone Wars the Jedi have gone from mainly peace keepers who would primarily get into self-defense, protection and limited (in scope) combat situations to Generals involved in large battles - they seem mostly depicted as leading from the front. Now is a sword, even one that can deflect incoming fire and sometimes deflect it back at the one who fired at you, really the best weapon for large scale battles with an enemy using mainly a ranged weapon? We've all also seen the shots of the Clones Following the Jedi as they charge the droids lines - is it really the best move for a General to take his troops who use mainly rifles and move them out of cover, charge them at the enemy and get them to engage in close combat? It makes no sense. Both Jedi and Clones were not properly equiped. They were missing the best weapons for any given job.

    The Jedi should have/would have used blasters during the clone wars. They are/were simply the best option while engaging with hundreds or thousands of enemies all firing at you from far away while the vast majority of your allies are doing the same. There would certainly be a time and place during the battles of the clone wars were a Jedi's lightsaber would be the weapon of choice, but ignoring the most effective weapon because.......reasons makes no sense. On the same hand, the Clones were created as an army intended to be lead by the Jedi, and while the Jedi should be using the weapons of their troops in a lot of situations, their troops also should be equiped to handle situations their generals are likely to put them in, and charging the enemy, getting in "lightsaber range" would be an easily predictable situation the clones would face. Why were they not all equiped with some kind of close quarters weapon?
     
  14. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Dear Cantineros with an interest in melee fighting, Star Wars wise or other – I happy to revive this thread triggered by the triumphant return of @Empire Jo and her confession that she’s now also onto ‘Spadone’ (which has a very similar equivalent in German medival fencing schools of Talhoffer etc.).

    It seems that some disruptive elements involved in this thread earlier are no longer a topic in the Cantina, we’re free to move on unmolested.

    I expect lots of discussion material cause of TLJ rushing in the next days, with all the Praetorian Guards, lightsaber stuff etc. (although I still have to see it for myself), so let’s keep on talking.
     
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  15. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

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    Just want to drop some lines to my friend @Star Dude about one of my greatest pashions FENCING!

    First about Me, i practiced Martial Arts all my Life, Shotokai Karate-Do over 20 Years, Gojo-Ryu and Muay Boran a Couple More Years. I´m also an avid Sword enthusiast and avid Collector, in my School, Externato Frei Luis de Sousa, we became Fencing European Champions, both U-16 and U-18.

    This is Fencing:
    [​IMG]

    Now for some hard facts about Sword Fighting:

    1. Stabbing is the way to go - The right move to win a sword figth is to STAB not Slice, a Stab produces a massive injury with lightning speed, you can stab someone almost 100 times in less than a minute, it takes no skill at all to stab into someone and you don't need a super sword to do it, you can pick a nail and teach a guy to kill someone stabbing it in less than 2 min, sword to Slice need many years in training to perfectly use them and the process of building a quality sword is time expensive. A Canadian Officer in the WWII learned and teached how to kill a man with a knife in lesss than a Second, just Stab his troath, while a Samuray took an entire life to learn how to kill a man with one slicing move to a man's neck. The Romans got excelent on fighting because their only tactic was get close under shield protection and Stab their opponents with thei short broad swords, The Gladios wich later on becane The Italian Rondel Knifes, 40 cm of pure Stabbing Power.

    2. The Best Fighting Sword Is A Hammer - Actually is much easier to fight with a strong Club or a Mace\Hammer than a Sword, it's extremly unlikelly you get unbalanced managing a club but with a sword you need to think all the movements after your attack movement or your Sword will get out of combat or you out of balance. Clubs can break swords and inflict heavy damage over any kind of armour, a sword won't harm a shield bearer but a Hammer will brake the Shield bearer's arm, and most swords won't penetrate a good helmet but a hammer will kill your opponent thru the helmet. In fact the preferencial weapon of the Medieval Times was the Battle Hammer. Just thing that in a fight against many opponents the guy with the hammer will kill several dudes a minute because his weapon will not get locked in a fallen enemy and he doesn't need to think much how to strike it's just it and it again, and by the way to a War Hammer enemies with or without armour it's absolutely the same thing. Some Classic Medieval Battle Hammers:
    upload_2017-12-14_10-41-13.png
    upload_2017-12-14_10-41-35.jpeg
    upload_2017-12-14_10-42-4.jpeg

    3. World's Greatest Sword ever made is The Portuguese Montante - Well this a very well crafted Sword Evolution, to face the Peasant Battle Hammers and Stabbing Knifes the Knights needed a better sword to face them at large, reducing the probability of getting hit in the fights, so the Big Double Handed Swords, the Doppelspielner, the 1,50 Meter Steel Sword appeared. The Portuguese fight on Horse backs so using a huge double handed sword riding a horse into battle is just a No-Go, so they came with a much much lightier extra long blade and fought with her single handed allowing the Montante (Riding Sword) to be used on Horse. This is a Legendary Sword, ruling the Battlefields for around 300 Years. The Montante was first used in 1300s in the War against Spain, by the the Spanish forces were 5 times more than the Portuguese Army and they completely Slaughtered (yes the Montante is so big that a man on foot can obliterate a monted horseman) and acompanies the Portuguese Explorers to Africa, India and South America and we are talking in very small groups of men fighting numerous enemies in remote locations. The Montante even get into Japan when Portuguese introduced Gun Powder Weapons and the Japanese started immediatley to produce longer Swords. The Montante:
    upload_2017-12-14_10-55-40.jpeg
    upload_2017-12-14_10-56-15.jpeg

    Fighting with the Montante (just check the Sword-Man Proportion and remember that a Montante is mainly a Single Handed sword)
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    There are plenty of YouTube Videos on Portuguese Montante Fights, just search them and by the way check The Portuguese Martial Art "Esgrima Lusitana" witch is all about fighting with Montantes, Battle Hammers and Sticks. Sticks are called "Paus" and they were poor man weapon of choice, a wood staff with aproximatelly 2,00 Meters, similar to the ones the sheppards used against the Wolves, and they got REALLY vicious with them (my great grandfather Albertino Gordo is considered one the best Pau Figthers Ever). Combat in "Esgrima Portuguesa" are ridicolous serious and even with just the padded sticks injuries are more than plenty.

    upload_2017-12-14_11-5-29.jpeg

    Fighting Padded Sticks Practice (same combat techniques used for Battle Hammers)


    Jogo do Pau (Long Sticks Fight - technoques similar to Montante Fighting Techniques)
     
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  16. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Thanks @77th for your real encompassing and enthusiastic post! That Ecgrima Lusitana really looks amazing, never heard of it before but now I will do some research (well, at least on Youtube). So thanks a lot for sharing!

    I’m completely with you when it comes to Escrima and its value for somebody practicing HEMA. As there’s no continuity in the martial art practices from the medieval ages until today, everybody practicing now is just doing an interpretation on their own right. The only sources are medieval treaties which show images and describe techniques without anybody having experienced them first hand. I now a bunch of people claiming to be experts in HEMA, without even the slightest knowledge on effective body movement and striking techniques, all that can be delivered by Escrima.

    Even the later Italian and Spanish fencing schools are much more modern age, using techniques fitting the weapons and equipment of the 16th century onwards. I know some guys that practice the style (or what they think that is), of Fiore dei Liberi, which is very late medieval or early renaissance. In this style was executed with light, thrusting swords getting common about 1450 AD dueling, akin to what most of us know as a rapier. So what they do is to tilt their wrist after a strike, which is OK with a light thrusting weapon, but will not work and injure the wielder with a 1-1/2 sword from the 13th century and which they use. There are lots of people out there mixing fighting styles and weapons over centuries outside their correct context, which leads to none historic mumbo jumbo.

    Talking about centuries and in which what weapon would be the one of choice, I’ve like to add to your experience:

    For 1) “Stabbing is the way to go” depends on the period. In my times of floret fencing, I couldn’t agree more. When looking at the time when longswords where popular and which is mostly captured by modern HEMA (well, there are so much schools out there catering to 100 of years of different time periods), there’s some point where this wasn’t the case:

    Until the 13th century, swords were not used mainly for stabbing for a good reason: They were not able to penetrate the armor of that time (e.g. chainmail with padded gambeson underneath). For stabbing through such an armor, the force of mounted lance, longbow or crossbow was needed.

    “Stab them with the pointy end” only became functional when

    a) Plate mail was so hard that only the gaps (e.g. underneath the arms) were good targets so that the swords of one-and-a-half hand were grabbed by the blades and then shoved into the armpits and

    b) In the advent of gunpowder, armor was in decline so lighter stabbing weapons could be used to full effect as described by you.



    So it’s really a question of which time period we’re talking about. For example the roundel daggers, made purely for stabbing, where also introduced during the end of the medieval period.

    For 2) See above. The Crowsbeak hammer or the two-handed version bec de corbin you presented is a weapon came into use in the Renaissance age, around 1500 A.D. So when somebody normally refers to medieval weapons, that one didn’t existed in that period. And except for certain fencing schools (buckler), shields were not used anymore during that period. You’re absolutely correct that they were devastating against armor.

    Again, it’s all based on which century we’re talking about. During the Viking times, spear and axe were the weapons that were applied against shield walls.

    Most of the effective weapons back then was the poleaxe, very similar to a bec de corbin in concept. During e.g. the 100 years’ war, the English used the poleaxe to full effect against the French armies which was one factor helping to win battles like the one of Verneuil.

    For 3) The Montante is a sword from 16th century, so clearly not a medieval weapon but one from the renaissance. I’m not sure if the Portuguese really had the biggest, but others of us call the same sword type Spadone in Italian (@Empire Jo) or Bi(den)händer in German (me). Some sources even claim that the Iberian Montante variant was a bid shorter and lighter than the Italian Spadone.

    Those to-handed swords were used in mass battles by single swordman to go between the troops with polearms (pikes, glaives and halberds), cutting of the pole arms or lifting them to make the troops vulnerable. Those long pikes were an easy catch and could not be used in closer combat for counterattack.

    In Germany the Landsknechts with such a large sword and that risky job received double payment (called ‘Doppelsöldner’ = double mercenaries).

    Because of their relative far reach, those swords also were useful to a certain degree against mounted troops.

    Edit (forgot to attach the pic):
    landsknecht.jpg
     
    #136 Star Dude, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  17. Empire Jo

    Empire Jo Force Sensitive

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    Well, here is myself and a HEMA mate working off some steam with the lightsabers before going in to see The Last Jedi. We both study Myer together, or German Renaissance Longsword (and other weapons like the dussack, side sword, quarterstaff, halberd ect)




    And since @Star Dude and @77th seem to like swords, including the montante, zweihander and spadone (pretty much all the same thing to the leyman), here is that same mate sparring with a spadone in a tournament. He's the one with the starbird patch, lol.




    Although Meyer, and Lichtenauer are my first loves, I also really love Tallhoffer. Especially the longsword and Messer bits. Though I haven't trained as much as I would like due to a few health problems.




    FB_IMG_1513244591247.jpg

    FB_IMG_1513258352039.jpg


    Anyway, some may find this interesting, seing how medieval weapons and swords are used, considering Rens weapon of choice.
     
    #137 Empire Jo, Dec 14, 2017
    Last edited: Dec 14, 2017
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  18. 77th

    77th Force Sensitive

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    In the Medieval Ages the Stabbing weapons were the "Stilletos" or "Mercies \ Mercy Daggers", very short knifes designed to penetrate armours and kill Knights, but they will not penetrate the Armoiurs per se, they were used in very close combat and insewrted in the joints or open spaces of the Armours. Actually the Stilleto is an Italian Early Renascense version of the Knights Mercy. You could call it the Can Opener because it killer more canned knights than any other weapon in it's day!

    Just to be Fair Medieval Ages are XII-XIV Centuries, the Cavalry Age of the Catholic Reconquest, and the Swords and Spears are the weapons of choice for this time period. The Renanscense Period started in the Quatrocento, so XIV-XV Centuries, and this time is absolutelly dominated by the Crossbow, the infamous "Bestia", and the beggining of fireweapons.

    My friend the first true account for the large use of Montantes is the Battle of Aljubarrota in 1355 were the Portuguese destroyed a massive Spanish Knight Army with their Thin Long Swords and The Later Ultra Famous Square Tactic, later on this tactic is in full action with FireWeapons on Napoleonic Wars because it provided the best defense possible against mainly Cavalry.

    The Montantes aren't shorter than Germanic and Dutch Double Handed Swords they are just very Thiner, some of the later Montantes didn't even had Blade Core, they are really big but lighter for single handed mounted combat, while German and Dutch blades were build to be used standing Up with Both Hands and namely to inflict an area attack, because their main gold was not sword fighting but knight attack and scater infantry while the Montante WAS Built to Sword Fighting. The Montantes were so successfull in the XIII Century Iberian Wars that quickly almost European Country started to build their own version of the Montante, The Portuguese Traditional Sword in the 1100's is the relative big double edged European Sword, with 15 Kg and around 1,50 Meters, but in Portugal we have Wild Pure Breed Horses so the warriors started to adapt that clubering sword to a big sword they could use single handed riding in horse back.

    Stabbing Vs. Slicing - Well no Rapier or Sabre, slicing weapons, can't deal against a club or hammer. In combat you don't even think about "Parrying" (crossing swords while both sword users attack) no fancy techniques can stop brute force and savagery, the Sword for a fight is the one that hits Strong, Quickly, doesn't stop after a hit and didn't require much expertise to dominate, thus Stabbing and Clubbing is your solution. It just takes too much time to learn how to properly slice someone and in combat situations like in the middle of a lot of people and surronded by multiple enemies you will need something that gets the job done quickly. (Try this test, place 6 coconuts surrounding you at diferent heights, now take a board sword or something that cuts really well and breake all the coconuts next do the same exercise with a single hammer from your toolbox and compare the time needed to achieve total devastation, by the way consider also how easy and natural a hammer tool is in your hand while smashing stuff without losing a breath).

    The Montante is a Sword but the fighting style to handle it is very similiar to a big club, you just clubb your way thru your opponent and if needed stick your enormous blade across his belly, the gold for the Montante user is to smash not cut. The Rapier was the main Spanish Sword, Rapier meant the sword will only touch you with the tip just like many of the french sword techniques, but in a sword combat the Rapier will get smashed to bits by the pure power of the Montante.

    To be fair the Montante just appeared because Portugal has the only Pure Breed Horses in Europe, well the others are Britain but they prefer to fight with bows, so they develop a very big light sword first then everybody else but later they all had their own versions of it.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2017 ---
    [​IMG]

    A picture of Battle of Aljubarrota Period, here represented the Spanish Knights being squashed by the Portuguese Maces and Big Swords. (the infantry guy in blue in the middle is wielding a Montante, while the Spanish Knights all have the European Board Sword - see the diference?)
     
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  19. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Hm, to say that the middle ages started at the 12th century is an innovative interpretation. Mostly the European periods are roughly classified like this:

    476 – 1066 AD Early middle ages
    1066 – 1300 AD High middle ages
    1300 – 1453 AD Late middle ages, the Renaissance (until 1600)
    1453 – 1789 AD Early modern period

    Which puts all highly developed Weapons such as a Crowsbeak hammer and Spadone and Bidenhänder out of the middle ages, but of course the transition is smooth.

    OK, as you’re the expert for Portuguese warfare I see your point. I wasn’t able to come up with a source that uses the terminology ‘Montante’ earlier then 15th and 16th century. Could you point me to any source better than my books at home or ones from the internet I found, because I like to learn more!

    As for the battle of Aljubarrota, it’s quite interesting to see the parallels to the battles fought on French ground during the 100 years’ war at the same time period. The Portuguese and their English allies used similar tactics as in the battles of Crecy and Agincourt. Being on the high ground, dismounting and setting anti-cavalry obstacles. So when the heavy cavalry charged, the English longbowmen and their weapon decided the outcome, at least according to the short research I did.

    As I said, which weapon would be the one of choice depends completely on the situation and the available technology (craftsmanship in armory and weaponry), so therefore also the time period. These factors will strongly influence which weapon would be beneficial:

    Fighting in a battle with shield wall (e.g. before 12th century)
    Fighting in Phalanx
    Fighting in a duel armored or unarmored against a single opponent
    Fighting multiple opponents
    Etc.

    If your example with the coconuts would hold true to be transferable to different real combat situations, then all warring cultures that came before the 14th century in the world and that did not use simple hammers as their main weapon, could be considered ignorant fools from now on as the guys from the 21st century know better. Imagine the empires that could have been built even more glorious by the Romans, Huns, Mayars, Scotts, Vikings, Crusaders and Fatimids!

    I think if you want to win a battle, it doesn’t matter so much if your troops hold hammers in their hands, or swords. It matters if they have combat training to a certain degree and know how to fight, supported by functional equipment. Of course it takes long time to become a master swordsman, but those did not build up the main force of any army. So you take freemen and train them with the weapons on hand to a certain degree so that you don’t lose your battles. And if you want to conquer Gaul, the Iberian peninsula, half of Germania, the middle east and north Africa, see if a slashing and stabbing Gladius and a thrown Pilum will not do the job, when protected by a tower shield.
    --- Double Post Merged, Dec 15, 2017, Original Post Date: Dec 15, 2017 ---
    As I like to put things into perspective and context, I like to reference here an older post from me where I clearly state the preference of smashing/clubbing weapons during the European period from 1300 AD onwards @77th. See https://thecantina.starwarsnewsnet....-in-sw-and-real-life.52506/page-5#post-399400

    If you want to go for an all-rounder and ‘can opener’, take a look at the poleaxe that give the English troops some triumphant victories on the battle fields of France and beyond.

    Smash ‘em with the hammer end, stab in between armor joints or in the face with the point, and cut them (or the horse legs) down with that axe blade that has more momentum then any longsword.

    poleaxe1.jpg

    poleaxe2.jpg

    Those are really great to watch @Empire Jo, thanks for sharing! I’m happy for you that you’ve so high quality HEMA offerings in your neighborhood.
     
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  20. Star Dude

    Star Dude Jedi General

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    Hi there @77th!

    This morning I got by a nice video regarding the discussion, why using swords when axes, hammer and maces are all around. I found it quite interesting:

     
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