SPECULATION The downfall of Snoke

Yep it looks like this is the time for Luke to join the force, Rey is expected to go on, on her own.

 

I'm not sure as to when it will happen, but I got the impression from that "bridge scene" in EP7 where Han warns Kylo of Snoke potentially betraying him as Kylo deep down knowing the truth himself and hinting towards the moment when he turns the tables around. I don't think we've seen an actual "apprentice betrays master and takes his place" on the big screen, come to think of it (Dooku was the apprentice, whilst Vader betrayed out of redemption). I get the feeling they're building Kylo to be the main "iconic" villain of the saga going forward - but on the other hand, I can also see a redemption arc for him, which really does speak wonders on how the character was written.

 

I voted for Kylo but I'm not sure that Snoke will be defeated this trilogy or that Kylo will remain evil. If Kylo isn't redeemed then I could see him destroying Snoke to become the leader of the First Order at the end of the ST and thus creating a longstanding villain with personal connections to the protagonist but isn't some lackey to a bigger bad.

 

Please feel not disturbed by my lack of seriosity..
Perhaps he already had several "downfalls" of his overdimensional throne. Could be one of the reasons why he looks as damaged and vulnerable after all these years..
looks like I have my funny day..

 

Hmm, are we sure it would be that simple?

If Kylo were to kill Snoke, wouldn't that make him an enemy to the First Order? Wouldn't people in the First Order view Kylo as a traitor (the irony) rather than the next leader?

Even if Kylo were to secretively kill Snoke, why shouldn't anyone think that the leadership will get passed down to someone like Hux? If Snoke was so wise, would he really give full control of the First Order to someone as unstable and conflicted as Kylo? Or would he give it to someone as dependable and passionate as Hux?

Edit: As I think about this, if Snoke had an entirely separate agenda to that of the First Order's... would he even care?

 

I can't see Adam Driver going beyond this trilogy. As much as I am sure he appreciates being in Star Wars, he strikes me as the kind of guy that wants to diverse and satisfying career in acting - he won't just want to be Mr Star Wars.

My feeling is that they will end the Episodic film series with this trilogy. Beyond that will be standalone films and maybe new, separate trilogies. The problem with continuing the episodic film series is that it's hard to be fresh. Everything has to happen on a galactic scale and it's just the same things repeating themselves. It's just always about the Skywalker family. They probably had enough trouble wondering how to create a story for the ST.

I guess what I said about Kylo/Driver goes for Daisy and John as well. They may want to continue beyond IX but it's doubtful. So really, they'll have to destroy Snoke and any other villains and have a peaceful ending in IX. I feel then it would be a great time to jump back to the ancient past and show how things begun, maybe tell the tale of how Plagueis...I mean Snoke trained Sidious and created life! And then you could jump well into the future and tell a completely new story that isn't about balancing the Force or defeating galactic tyrants but more isolated tales set on new worlds.

This is another reason why I feel Snoke should be Plagueis. Now this isn't just another Plagueis post, this ties in with Snoke's downfall and why he must perish in IX. For me, the episodic films are about the Skywalkers. They should all tell the same story from I-IX. They need to connect and show the relevance of everything that has come before. This is why Plagueis would work for me. You easily make him the creator of Anakin and the master of Sidious - make him the man that is literally behind everything that has happened. The "plague" that has cursed the Skywalkers from day dot. Then only with his destruction can the curse be lifted and true peace be found. A fitting end to the Skywalker saga.

 

This is how I imagine it, and achieving peace not through the perpetual war -- the Star Wars -- Snoke seems to need to stay alive (if only as it being his purpose), but attaining peace through peacefulness.

I would love it if Star Wars could end on such bold and brilliant points...

• We won the war by not giving into it. War was never the answer.
• Suffering can begin to end once we chose not to perpetuate suffering any longer.
• We must learn from history -- personal, global, and galactic -- and not repeat its mistakes.
• We shunned the Dark Side, not joined it: it was always a choice to be made, however difficult but a choice nonetheless.
• The Dark Side only returns and has a fighting chance when we choose to move from the Light, descend into darkness, and let that dominate our destinies.
• We brought peace by achieving peace first within ourselves (e.g. "let there be peace on Earth, and let it begin with me").
• Compassion, not passion was the way we did this.
• We can inspire others in leading by example and embracing the goodness in ourselves and others.
• Not one of us is the exclusive hero: our heroics are collaborative. We can be each other's hero, and a hero to ourselves: we can save ourselves.
• Redemption is always possible as long as there is hope.
• Hope can arrive from the most unlikely sources and at the most desperate times, and we should never give into the thought "it is too late."
• Goodness will always overcome evil in the end, even if it takes generations to get there.

I agree the connections and overall relevance of events and characters should be brought full circle by the end of this saga. The Plagueis option can be incredibly compelling in this regard, especially with regards to Snoke's rise, life, and eventual downfall.

Snoke's mysteries should be revealed completely by the end of Episode IX. In fact, I feel there should be no major loose ends or looming questions central to the understanding of this Sequel Trilogy and central characters once the credits start rolling at the end of Episode IX. The prevailing sensation, as you leave the theater, should be overwhelming and complete: it should all flow and make sense in a profoundly satisfying way.

I do have more to say about that, but I'll save that for the Darth Plagueis thread, because I think it's potentially powerful information which ties this saga and Snoke in with yet another literary and mythological set of references -- potent and deeply meaningful ones -- which I believe could be almost too good to pass up if the storytellers are the least bit interested in going that intriguing route.

*UPDATE* if interested, please continue via this link, which leads to my new post in the Darth Plagueis thread.

JediMasterRobert

 

Superb post @JediMasterRobert

 

Well I wouldn't be surprised if they have a contract with the actors that has them locked into more films if they decide to make them, just like they do with the Marvel actors. I also highly doubt that Episode IX will be the last film in the Skywalker Saga, they might wait a while between trilogies(which would probably be best), but money talks, plain and simple.

 

It's more like a lock with future options if they so choose to go forward in regard to both parties...SW IS ABOUT The Skywalkers inherently according to KK / GL / Story Group so we will never have them end .

 

Thank you, master_shaitan.

I've thought about these things for a very long time, and it's such a joy and an honor to share these ideas and observations with fans who are willing to take the time to consider such possibilities.

As promised, I have continued my thoughts in a new post in the Darth Plagueis discussion.

JediMasterRobert

 

he's made 5 seasons of Girls out of pure loyalty to whatshername (that show is unwatchable, seriously). if he loves the franchise, i think he might continue with it.

also, JJ gave him carte blanche to work on other stuff (he was filming Girls and TFA simultaneously flying from NY to London every other week), so it might actually be in his contract that he wants the flexibility. and it might all depend on how much screen time he has to commit to.

i look at Ewan McGregor, who despite being in the three crappiest SW movies, would gladly come back and make another one just because it was so much fun.

back OT: i agree strongly with @JediMasterRobert; if this devolves into a planet-leveling Jedi/Sith-wannabe street brawl i will be sorely disappointed. i expect more from Star Wars.

 

I liked Girls, but have trouble watching it after TFA. Adam Driver was my favourite thing about the show. Now I'm like, did Kylo Ren really just pee on her in the shower?

 

if his time is up with anything, it's with Girls. i don't see how he can continue to make that (except out of loyalty, which you gotta respect in him). it gave him his start which is awesome, but he's a much better actor than what he's given to work with there. and okay, maybe i say all this because i refuse to watch that and totally resent it ~ hahaha.

 

Of course it wouldn't be simple, I wasn't imagining Kylo just waltzing up to Snoke and stabbing him in the chest. If Kylo did kill Snoke, and succeeded him as Dark Lord/Supreme Leader, then it would be the result of a planned coup, probably with the KoR alongside him. Would there be dissenters? Probably. Hux, if he's still alive by then, would be one of them but then Kylo either would have planned for that eventuality or the strife within the FO would provide drama for the story.

 

These are all possibilities.
There are plenty of directions to take the trilogy, and we don't know a whole lot about where the story will ultimately take the characters.

Take for example the KOR. I don't think it has been clearly specified what their relationship is like with Kylo. Do they all respect him as their master? Or are they all bitter and vying for the position as master? Are they all willing to collaborate and take down Snoke?

How about the stormtroopers and officers. Are most of them willing to side with Hux after Snoke's death, or are most of them willing to side with Kylo? or half and half? How do we know that the First Order wouldn't just break up into a bunch of remnants of what was once the First Order?

We don't even know where Kylo's character is going to end up. As of right now, I don't have plenty of reasons to believe that Kylo is clever enough to stage a coup against Snoke, or to prepare a contingency plan for any dissenters. Sure Kylo will complete his training with Snoke, but we don't know for sure what exactly Snoke is trying to sculpt out of Kylo.

But I will admit, I like your theory. And I agree that if they plan on making a SST directly connected to this. This can be a way to go about it.

 

I have been suggesting that Kylo will kill Smoke for awhile. Kyle will off his master and be the new supreme leader.

 

It could be anyone and that does him in. I honestly have no clue.

But what about this... what if Snoke is not killed and just passes on as Yoda did with Luke?

I'm gonna be completely honest here and say that Snoke never came across as a vengeful person to me. They talk about him being vulnerable in certain interviews. When Kylo talks back to him he just kind of dismisses it and rationalizes with him. Snoke may be the character that teaches us balance in the force.

I mean, yeah he is the bad guy. But I think he is going to be one of those characters that let us viewers in the mind of a bad guy. Make us question if he is really bad. To an extent. Let us play around with the idea that his views make sense you know what I mean.

If I have to pick, Kylo does him in just as he did his father. But not in an effort to help the light. Just to submerge himself deeper in the dark side.