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The Reason Why Finn Can Wield A Lightsaber

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Force Awakens' started by Cut In Two, Jan 11, 2016.

?

Would you consider this to be a strong argument?

Poll closed Jan 11, 2016.
  1. Yes, I think it is very sound

    4 vote(s)
    19.0%
  2. Yes, but I think there are one or two places where a weakness shines through

    4 vote(s)
    19.0%
  3. Yes, but it could be better as a few obvious weaknesses poke through

    1 vote(s)
    4.8%
  4. I lean both ways

    2 vote(s)
    9.5%
  5. No, it skips over a few too many issues to be considered sound, but it has promise

    2 vote(s)
    9.5%
  6. No, there are glaring mistakes and inconsistencies, but it's still salvageable

    2 vote(s)
    9.5%
  7. No, I do not think this argument is sound whatsoever

    6 vote(s)
    28.6%
  1. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    It seems to me that you started this thread people came up with some good points and now you're kind of throwing a hissy fit and want to take your toys and go home.
     
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  2. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    Ok, this is just more ad nauseam, and now you're also contradicting yourself.

    Lucas told them to imagine that the handles were of immense weight, the blades were to be weightless. The handles not the blades.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2016 ---
    I'd prefer if you didn't abuse ad hominem attacks, thanks. Furthermore, I'm not the type of person to throw "hissy fits," my reasons for wanting to close this thread are not only logical, but also rational. There is very little emotional involvement I have in this discussion.

    Judging by you're use of ad hominem, I'd gauge you're trying to incite me. I can assure you, it's not possible.

    I've already told you why I want this thread closed. What is it with you people and arguing ad nauseam. I wanted people with some good points and they did, but now it's just fallacy fest 2016.

    I've accepted many different ideas, positions, and types of evidence. All this has turned in to now is a bunch of people just arguing ad nauseam, like can you guys seriously not bring anything new to the table. "Oh but this weapon and this..." no, this was already covered several pages ago, etc...

    "Melee training follows into light saber skill" first off, that's illicit minor, second off it's an argument from ignorance, thirdly it's cherry picking, fourth it's another ad nauseam argument, fifth it's already been previously debunked.
     
    #82 Cut In Two, Jan 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
  3. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    If you behave in certain way don't be surprised when people bring it up, like i said since you seem to have so much contempt for this thread now "Stop Replying to it".
     
    #83 Duke Groundrunner, Jan 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
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  4. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    This just got hilariously funny.

    I can't recall any thread, anywhere, dealing with a fictional subject in which the OP wanted it closed because they felt it got illogical and did not follow strict protocols of debate.

    May the Force Be WIth You, Cut In Two, but I'm picturing you as someone from "The Big Bang Theory" who has just sprayed organic Green Tea through their nose and all over their screen because they can't understand how ridiculous the people on this thread have become.

    Welcome to the Cantina, and please mind your caffeine intake as it does get messy here sometimes and we all know that high blood pressure and stress lead to negative health outcomes ;)

    Edit to Add,

    How'd he even start this thread? I thought you had to have 30 posts first and he was only at like 15 when I started in this thread.
     
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  5. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    ^this is a prime example of cherry picking, and now you're outlining a false dilemma without even realizing it. Marvelous, it truly is my lucky day

    No, out of all the things that I find entertaining, this is one of the most entertaining because now that the thread has been derailed, I've deleted the OP, and asked "FOR THE THREAD TO BE LOCKED PLEASE" , I can engage in true arguments of wit.

    Foremost, I've already given my logical reason for continuing to reply to this thread. It would be illogical and irrational for me to cease replying. If you were to look back at the first several pages of this thread, you would notice that I accepted a lot of different points, changed a lot of notions that I held prior, and was extremely level headed when people would argue logically.

    I don't attach myself to my arguments because I make my arguments, they don't make me. This appears to be the exact opposite for the majority of everyone else currently participating in this thread. Too strung up by emotion.

    Am I the only INTP around?
     
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  6. Duke Groundrunner

    Duke Groundrunner Rebel Official

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    I know, crazy right?
     
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  7. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    There are no strict protocols of debate, but straw men arguments are usually frowned upon. Ahhh then tries to equivocate fictional topics to real ones to display their inferiority, but wait... you're doing so to incite an emotional reaction. However, you appeared to lose your temper a post or two ago, so you've retreated to ad hoc rescue fallacies and contradictions. Love it, true demonstration of wit.

    I'm not going to engage in slinging ad hominem attacks or fallacies at you. It'd be pointless because I'd just lower myself to your level of ignorance and you'd beat me with experience. Oh wait, the irony.

    You think I believe in rules? In structure? No, I heed little attention to them.

    Don't worry I don't drink caffeine, I just take vyvanse instead, and how can I get stressed out when I've got a script for valium?

    I love this, you're displaying your own ignorance (if not to those around us, then to the world) by this argument from avoidance.


    Edit: but remember, the only thing that wins in debate is the truth. Or in this instance, wit over ignorance. The latter you seem rather adept in its use.
     
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  8. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    It was my turn to spit on my screen.

    We are now talking about Briggs-Meyer personality types. Edit because my original wording here just wasn't nice.... school and they just taught you about that in Industrial Psych 101, because the test-retest reliability is so low that businesses have largely abandoned it altogether as pseudo psychological pap that only makes things worse in business. I'd be concerned if you actually learned that at work.

    I'm going to follow along out of pure entertainment value, so no hard feelings, K?
     
    #88 Lazlo, Jan 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
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  9. ArynCrinn

    ArynCrinn 1030th Lieutenant (Jr Mod)

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    How well trained with a lightsaber is Kylo Ren exactly?
    Given that he probably didn't build that lightsaber under Luke's tutelage, it appears he is mostly self trained.

    Finn wouldn't be dead within 1-5 seconds if Kylo wanted to play with him.
    I mean, it's not every day you get to practice your lightsaber skills against someone else with a lightsaber.
    Kylo basically wanted to give him a slow, painful death. Just look at the pleasure he gets as he's digging the quillion/exhaust into Finn's shoulder.
    He allows Finn to make the first move, and just pushes him back.
    And again, look at how quickly Kylo Ren ends the fight once he starts taking Finn seriously.
    He ends the duel in seconds.

    This is the key detail that throws your entire theory out the window.

    Also, Finn had a crash course in the use of the lightsaber when he went up against Nines and lost.
    That, combined with his extensive melee combat training, would have made him better than any other random to pick up a lightsaber.


    Your original post makes a lot of invalid points.
    How does a non-force sensitve keep track of the blade? They look at it.
    Finn doesn't really do anything that would be risky for him.
    He is vastly outclassed by Kylo Ren.


    Never appeal to any authority in an argument... especially not your own.


    This is true... however, Mark Hamill has spoken on several occasions that he was instructed to always hold it with 2 ends, to give the lightsaber an even greater sense of weight than what was even present in the prop.
    George Lucas contradicts himself all the time.

    Anyway, the idea that someone who is untrained will cut themselves or will not be able to block or parry is ridiculous and entirely unfounded.
    Ever played with a flashlight as though it were a lightsaber? If you can do that without hitting yourself with the light, you can swing around a lightsaber.
    Doesn't mean you're going to do well against someone who knows what they're doing... but you still can.


    You should have also noticed by now, that Kylo is not only mortally wounded, but he's also holding back against both Finn and Rey.
    Finn, because he wants to drag things out.
    Rey, because he doesn't want to kill her, just as Vader held back against Luke in TESB.
     
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  10. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    There we go, hit me with the heat.

    Yes Meyes Briggs based off of the theory made by Car Jung in 1910--Which was first implemented into Meyes Briggs and then into Socionics by the Soviets. Interesting that test reliability is so low, as it's purported accuracy rates are upwards of 95%, as reported by the American Psychological Association (Edit: statement made in 2013). Although, I can assure you, it's not a pseudo psychological theory, and is infact, rather brilliant at describing the human thought process. MBTI along with Enneagram forms a potent formula for someone's personality. Sadly no, I never learned that in a second rate high school, though the high school I went to was hardly second rate, but that's extraneous information. My discovery of MBTI was pure coincidence. My current work with MBTI pertains strictly to the research team I currently am part of to invest into the relation MBTI types have in accordance to how people act when exposed to various economic theories.

    As far as I am concerned, businesses never vested strong interest in MBTI in the first place. Although, I can't speak conclusively of course. However, MBTI in combination with others personality type indicators, is helping to advance the social structures of all age groups (re: helping to develop stronger interpersonal relations). In an age of growing cooperation and collaborative thinking, MBTI couldn't hold a higher standard as to help those of like minds think together, but also to enable agents to understand the thought process of others.

    In NCAA debate I've found that knowing an opponent's MBTI prior to the fact gives you a very distinct edge.


    AS A REMINDER TO ANY MODS RUNNING ACROSS THIS THREAD, PLEASE PROCEED TO LOCK IT.
     
    #90 Cut In Two, Jan 11, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2016
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  11. Darth Nerf-Herder

    Darth Nerf-Herder Rebelscum

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    upload_2016-1-11_14-31-16.jpeg
     
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  12. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    Finn is force sensitive. I can rate blast now


    edit: nope still can't do that, but I can create threads with 0 posts
     
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  13. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    There are now 4 official requests by the OP to have the thread locked.

    PSST, Hey buddy, send a PM to a mod and see if that works any better.

    I hate to admit it, but this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever posted in. I'm probably a bad person for saying it, but the OP reminds me of a young cousin I have. Brilliant guy and he means well but he can't have a conversation in which people who are obviously of lower intelligence than him don't bow down and respect his PHD and Macarthur Genius Grant. It devolves into a conversation just like this one nearly every time. And I for one, and I suspect many others, just can't help ourselves.

    I am reminded of the scene in Good Will Hunting where Robin Williams gives a nice little speech about being very smart, but none the less having much to learn about the world.

    Like I said C.I.T., welcome to the cantina, take it easy, and as a little advice, you probably shouldn't be posting about prescription drug use and the implied diagnosis' on a forum such as this.

    To recap:

    OP's theory was that Finn has to be Force sensitive because if not, he would have either killed himself instantly or have been killed within seconds by a trained Force user.

    Several members disagreed, OP got frustrated, deleted the theory and asked for the thread to be locked.

    It went off the rails very fast from there.

    Back on topic.

    What positive evidence do we have for Finn's Force sensitivity other than the suppositions made in this thread?

    To me it was painfully clear that Finn was not sensitive, and even became the subject of an in-film joke that will likely prove to be one of the more memorable lines from this film.

    (loosely)
    Finn: We'll just use the Force.
    Han: It doesn't work that way!
     
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  14. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    this has been cute!

    remember though, in debate things can be true or untrue, and you can definitely win a debate by arguing an untrue point. so... yeah. i think you're talking about something other than debate.
    --- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2016 ---
    oh wait, never mind, true and untrue? what was i thinking! quick, mods, delete my post and lock my account! who knows what i'll do or say next!!
     
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  15. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    Yeah pretty much spam mailed a bunch of mods

    "I hate to admit it, but this is one of the most entertaining threads I have ever posted in. I'm probably a bad person for saying it, but the OP reminds me of a young cousin I have. Brilliant guy and he means well but he can't have a conversation in which people who are obviously of lower intelligence than him don't bow down and respect his PHD and Macarthur Genius Grant. It devolves into a conversation just like this one nearly every time. And I for one, and I suspect many others, just can't help ourselves."

    As far as disagreement goes, I'm usually pretty lax and accepting of it, but when there's chronic disagreement I usually fret away. I'm not really the type that gets hell bent on a specific outcome. The prescription drug use is legal (scripted to me), not really afraid to announce I'm ADHD and GAD, but I'll refrain in the future.

    hate to bring MBTI back into this, but in heated debates, INTP/Js get extremely cold, logical, and boost themselves up against their opponent by using subtle superiority complexes mainly because people who fall along those types straight up fear incompetence. NT's in MBTI or 4's, 5's, and 6's in Enneagram--fear inferiority and feel as if they must assert their competence by degrading others.

    As far as evidence for Finn being force sensitive: http://www.mediaobservers.com/star-wars-the-force-awakens-defending-finn/

    EDIT: my theory wasn't personal, and I actually wrote it to be extremely one sided (I don't even believe some of things I wrote)

    Personally, I'm on the lines that there's a ~70% chance that Finn is force sensitive.
     
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  16. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    everything else aside, i'm hoping that Finn is Force sensitive, but i don't expect him to be.
     
  17. Cut In Two

    Cut In Two Clone

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    http://vodlocker.com/ljny3txbibhv

    skip to around the 1:20 mark.

    Finn is standing far away from the castle where the falcon is, and he hears screaming (women and children) randomly from the sky. The screams are clear, and he hears explosions. However, he's hearing all of this while the beams are still traveling to the planets. The two aliens around him don't notice anything and continue on completely oblivious to the sounds Finn is hearing. It cuts to space and the pallet goes dark, then it cuts to a planet where we see women and children and hear the exact same screaming. As the planets explode it cuts back to Finn and the screams slowly fade out. Finn then SPRINTS back to the castle (remember, the falcon was pretty far away), and sees that people have essentially just started to come out of the castle. Remember how far away the falcon rested from the castle, so Finn was probably running for a minute or two before he even gets there. When he gets there no one is in panic, no one is running, no one is screaming, there are no children, there are almost 0 women, they are all curiously looking up at the sky. No one seems to be in disarray, they are all calm/curious and collected. Finn is extremely shaken up from the experience, you can hear it in his voice and see it on his face.
     
  18. DarthPilkington

    DarthPilkington Rebel Official

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    i'm not trying to argue one way or another; i just mean to say that i hope he's Force sensitive, but if they go another direction i really won't care.

    the whole Finn being Force sensitive or not is threatening to become another Plagueis fiasco: everyone has arguments either way and each side thinks they're the ones that have finally figured it all out.
     
  19. Lazlo

    Lazlo Rebel Official

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    Interesting article. Let's take the conversation in a slightly different direction.

    The reason I tend to put little stock in this type of analysis is that I think it is too nuanced and subtle for Star Wars. The simplicity is what makes it appealing to such a wide audience. You know who the good guys and bad guys are, you know that Rey is the next Jedi because she uses a mind trick on a stormtrooper and calls the lightsaber to her hand.

    Finn is pretty clearly the New Han Solo. Questionable background, big hearted, brash and brave. Solo starts out by shooting Greedo first (It happened, I don't care what GL says or how many digital additions there are). What type of guy are our heroes getting involved with? Finn is set up the same way. You like him immediately, but you aren't entirely on his side just yet.

    The roles are all a little jumbled, but not mysterious, If they were going for subtlety, we would not have learned about Kylo's parentage so early in the film in such an unambiguous manner.
     
    #99 Lazlo, Jan 12, 2016
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2016
  20. Darth Nerf-Herder

    Darth Nerf-Herder Rebelscum

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    upload_2016-1-11_16-42-45.jpeg
     
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