THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I might just re-edit a dark cut of the film. No gags. include some necessary deleted scenes and basically just business.
Sort of like this ..here's a preview of what it would be like.

 

If this were a court of law, you the lawyer and me sitting on stand, and you asked me a yes or no question, the answer is no (there, you can smile).

But on cross examination, the fact that Luke was standing over my bed while I was sleeping with a cocked gun aimed at me would be more than enough to sway most jury's and judges into following that action to it's logical conclusion. The intent to kill was there, most likely only saved by life preserving action. Very few jury's or judges would question Luke's motives at that time, and not just from Kylo's point of view. If there had been a camera in the room, it would have been evidence against Luke and supporting Kylo.

 

Agree on all counts.

 

If there is a single moment in TLJ that compares to the ESB "I am your father." moment, I think for the fandom, it's this one that will go down in history. Snoke's death was a "wow" moment, but it was pretty absolute (unless you believe he's Plaguis or a clone ect...) thus lacks the debate factor. What's different with this one, is that I don't think there will be a reveal (if I was directing, I wouldn't have one) on what is the truth. As much as I hate and disagree with this depiction of Luke, it will make for a neat debate that will never end.

 

Good point.
I get Sidious' game was complex and included more than just deceiving the Jedi Order.
It would be unfair for anyone to place all blame on the Jedi.

For me a primary lesson of the Prequels was how the Jedi got to the position they were in ANH.
It's part of my interest in the Prequels despite knowing the endpoint.

I only focused on your issue with Luke and Yoda seeing failures in the Jedi Order because that was the only part of your post that I don't quite understand.
(I may disagree with you but it's the not understanding how you arrived there that gets my attention! )

It's not these things I see Luke's monologue or Yoda's aphorism alluding to.
In TLJ Yoda seems less focused on the letter of the law than the spirit.
I imagine the failures they see in Jedi past were about:

• Becoming more soldiers than diplomats and peacemakers.
  
• Becoming “blind” to the point of playing the role of proxy tools for a Sith Lord. (Masked by the dark or deserted by the light.)
• Being denied honorable deaths and being thinned from thousands to a handful.

I don't see how these things could happen and not be seen by the remaining Jedi as a failure of sorts.

Not a complete failure sure - the Order survives and learns.
Not the only failure – Sidious also exploited weakness in individuals (Anakin) and the ruling apparatus (emergency powers) as you mention.
But a failure nonetheless. Particularly when the Jedi defined their mandate as being guardians of peace and justice.

I agree. The ambiguity around these scenes is deliberate.
They favored the show don't tell approach and left the narrative detail sparse.

Just to put it out there, the flashback images could also be interpreted as visuals from Rey's imagination as the events are being recounted.

 

The Jedi also failed to maintain a connection to the living force.
We see this with midichlorians. And as discussed in other threads, it the point they are there but it's never actualized in the films.
This failure and reliance on midichlorian counts and jargon over the living force blinds them to a lot of things.
Luke's emphasis is on the living force. The connection between all things...because it's losing this that has helped put him where he is. His faith in/fear of "mighty Skywalker blood"

 

Yes, there is. She said that when they touched hands she saw him turning to the light, and at that moment, she believed that what Luke had done pushed him to the darkness. She thought that she could turn him back to the light by going to him. I saw it as her having empathy for him, believing that there was hope for him and thinking she could turn him and bring him back to the resistance and everything would be A-Okay. Which was naïve on her part. Wanting someone to no longer be evil and return to their family and the good guys doesn't mean that you're in love, ready for marriage and ten kids with them. That's a large jump considering everything that played out in TLJ. That's just my 2 cents.

 

And yet there is a large part of the fandom that does just that. Or at least put an unfair part of the blame on the Jedi.

And as I said, it's no coincidence on Lucas's part that he writes the Prequels in a way that shows Sidious doesn't create the Empire until after the Jedi are destroyed. Sidious knows that the Jedi are the only group that can hurt him, not just because they are Force Users, but, because they are the only ones that he can't corrupt to a point where they would be willing to accept an Empire and he as an Emperor. The Jedi are the good guys, they are the white hats in this western. Are they perfect? No, they aren't. But so many fans have issue with the Jedi on a personal level, that they go out of their way to place an unrealistic amount of the blame on the Jedi, with a lot of people going so far as saying the Jedi deserved to die, which whom do we hear say that in TLJ?

As I said they are not perfect, but, TLJ takes Luke's character too far down the blame game tunnel, and doesn't do enough leg work to bring him back and explain that the failures are more on individual levels, and not because the Jedi Order was flawed as a group, which Luke claims.

How so? I mean if you're going to point to those things as failures, than you have to come up with answers to help the Jedi not fail. It's nice for you, or "remaining Jedi" to sit in hindsight and say well shoot... the Jedi Order is dead, so obviously they screwed it up somewhere. If all you're going to to do is sit in judgement and pass judgement by only looking at the result, than you aren't helping anyone. Do we blame the Jewish Religion for almost near extinction during the 30's and the 40's? Or do we blame Hitler and the Nazis? It would be ludicrous to blame those that are Jewish for what Hitler did!

See this is the perfect example of an area where people sit in hindsight and in judgement, yet won't ever answer the simple question of what were the Jedi supposed to do? It's easy to talk about morals and morality when you aren't faced with the choice yourself.

Are the Jedi not sworn to protect the Republic? The Innocent? The People? The Planets themselves? Where does their sworn protection stop? Does it stop at war? At being soldiers? If a War breaks out, do the Jedi just step aside, and say to the people that are dying, "sorry we can't help, we're only peacekeepers, and becoming soldiers is not part of of our mandate"?

Or do they do what most people have to do during a war where their way of life is being threatened? I don't think a school teacher from Ohio ever wanted to be a soldier. Or the mailman from New York ever wanted to be a soldier. But they put their morals aside, they put their fears aside to protect their country, their people, their neighbors, their way of life... Sure they don't want to kill other people, they never thought they would have too, but, they do.

So the Jedi do what regular people do, and somehow they are failures? So lets say the Jedi step aside and don't become soldiers, and watch as the Republic and CIS destroy each other, destroy planets, destroy billions of lives, knowing that the CIS is being led by a man that has fallen to the Dark Side.

If the Jedi don't engage in being soldiers, does that change Sidious's plan? Is Sidious's plan all of a sudden foiled? No it isn't!

The result is virtually the same! Sidious takes over, declares himself Emperor, has his huge army to subjugate the Republic. All while the Jedi sat on the sidelines.... Is that not a failure on the Jedi's part? If the failure is Sidious taking over, as Luke says in TLJ, than have the Jedi not failed in this scenario as well? Is their sitting on the sidelines in order to protect their morals and keep their hands clean results in the same ending of the Republic. How do the people of the Republic now see the Jedi? Traitors, cowards... They sat by and watched as billions died... Do you not think the people of the Republic would have turned on the Jedi...?

Yes, now Sidious has to deal with the Jedi straight on instead of thinning them out through the war itself, but, we see the Jedi aren't immortal. 200 of them get wiped out at the battle of Geonosis by being outnumbered by Battle Droids. So how much better do the Jedi do against hundreds of thousands of Clone Troopers, with a million more on the way. An Army with tanks, and ships etc etc... Would the Jedi not have to become soldiers themselves anyway? Or do they just disband? Which ends the Jedi Order anyway, but, hey they're alive and can hold their head up high they didn't become soldiers...

So again, it's easy to sit here and judge the Jedi as failures for becoming soldiers. But what alternative did they have? If you are going to declare a decision a failure, than you should explain what better option they had and how the outcome would have been different. Sidious's plan was not dependent on the Jedi becoming soldiers, yes that helped Sidious, but, the results would have been the same. Sidious takes over, declares himself Emperor, has his army, has the support of the people against the Jedi. How much harder is Sidious's job now? If the Jedi weren't willing to become soldiers before, why would they now?

This is the problem with TLJ. It wants to play the blame game, it wants to give into the fan theories that the Jedi were failures, but, it doesn't place the blame where it really belongs. It says that the people of the Republic aren't answerable for what they did because somehow the Jedi were supposed to protect them from themselves...

Again, what were they supposed to do? You want to be able to call them failures, but, what else were they supposed to do. You know they were proxy tools for a Sith Lord, they did not. Again, were they just supposed to go sit off in the corner, not help? Well it's the same results as not becoming soldiers. They don't control the overall Force. They can only manipulate it on the individual level. They can't stop the "shroud of the darkside from falling".

Well that's really never addressed in the movies, but, are you saying that the people that die protecting their country aren't honorable deaths? Not everyone gets to die like Obi Wan Kenobi...


I just can't stress enough how ridiculous TLJ is (for me) as far as blaming the Jedi as failures, and than doesn't do a thing to try and walk that back. The movie does nothing to really lay out what happened that caused the rise of Darth Sidious, but instead has Luke Skywalker.. THE Luke Skywalker come out and lay the failure at the Jedi's feet, Than has Yoda... THE Yoda, come out and not correct Luke on what really happened, but instead say yeah they failed, but that's the greatest teacher... lmao...

TLJ over simplifies what happens in the Prequels in order to make Luke this old crazy hermit, in order to create it's narrative. And I can't stand it. Instead of making Luke's struggle a purely 100% personal struggle with himself, and the decisions HE made, it makes it out as the struggle is with the Jedi Order itself and that the struggles he had are a result of the Jedi Order's teachings, that's it's something inherently wrong with the Jedi. Johnson doesn't do enough to walk Luke back from that...

 

This certainly not enough for me. Rey believing in her vision (which was so important it wasn't even displayed on-screen) is one thing.
But blindly following that vision ? Betting everything on it (her life, the fate of the Resistance & the Galaxy as a whole) ?
She just witnessed how trying to redeem Kylo Ren played out in "reality" : as Ben's own loving father just died trying to acccomplish exactly that.
So, how could Rey, despite being traumatized by that "real-life" event, decide to trust a vision without even a single ounce of doubt ?

Even Luke's redemption of Vader was motivated by his own strong personnal desire to connect with his father. Now, you're tellling me Rey would just try the same thing, just because it worked in her dream ?

If you don't add something to the equation, it simply doesn't work. And i don't see what you can add outside of "love". (or "intense attraction", if you prefer)

 

Luke blindly followed a vision in Empire.
Anakin followed a vision in Attack of the Clones and Revenge.

 

Luke and Anakin had connections to the people in those visions. For Rey to think she could do what Han couldn't is arrogant beyond belief. She has no connection to any of these people. That should be the last thing on her mind.

 

I watched episode 7 and 8 and than popped up rogue one. and the real reason why this trilogy is not working is apparent. The sequel trilogy is a rehash of the original trilogy and NOT A TRUE SEQUEL! why, if the original films and sequel films are both set in the same continuity.

because rehashes have overshadowed genuine actual connection and realistic motivations....which is why rogue one is more liked

Rogue one features geniune connections and a mostly self consistent chain of events that doesnt undermine new hope

the sequel trilogy manufactures and forces in contrivances and bantha poodoo to recreate the original trilogy. Creating unrealistic and contrived worldbuilding to create the awful setting of the sequel trilogy

the problem is that the sequel trilogy is built off a foundationally broken foundation introduced by abrams....not only did he write the trilogy into a corner, but he created a setting that actively sabotages the actual story in the form of the "contrive-esistance"(resistance) and the first order....when it should have been the republic.

a real sequel to the original trilogy would have featured the new republic in a role opposed to the first order lead by darth plagueis

That is why the sequel trilogy is not working for a lot of fans....they are shoving The OT format in a place while realistic characters and logical worldbuilding are pushed to the side(or the expanded universe in the case for rey as it had been revealed that her force bond caused her to be skilled).

nothing demonstrates this more than the worldbuilding...which is so bad and contrived that even the expanded universe is having problems with it.

The republic has a allergic reaction to military spending even when no realistic country in our planets history ever had that kind of reaction but okay...who also magically falls to pieces when starkiller base destroys 5 planets?

but this centers on one character....snoke

this is proof that snoke does not work

He is a contrived plot device....instead of making him someone who has a geniune connection to palpatine, they instead decided to create a uninspired palpatine knockoff with no depth or effectiveness of that villian

lack of force ghost anakin is also a problem.

this trilogy is a contrived mess of forced plot points and terrible worldbuilding meant to recreate but NOT CONNECT to the original trilogy


plagueis would have worked perfectly

 

She does have a connection to Kylo in this movie. Old man Snoke saw to that. They feel each other's emotions and she senses the conflict in him. So I think she has every reason to believe she can turn him.


EDIT: Wow look at me defending this movie lol.

 

I feel ya,
I hate the movie -- but end up defending it more from crap than not.

 

I have no idea why she would trust the vision. She has no reason to believe any of it, nor does she have any reason to believe anything Kylo says. To me, the entire scenario paints her in a very negative light. She looks gullible and rather stupid running off to "save" him. Throwing her being "in love" with this guy as the main reason is even more unbelievable. I can't believe that the word "love" is being thrown around so casually with these two. I'd say maybe an attraction is there, or a fascination? Saying it's because of love is like going from point A-Z with no explanation in the middle. They had a couple of visions of each other and touched hands and she went from hating him to being in love? If that's what the writers are trying to convey they did a terrible job and just told the worst developed "love story" ever in a movie. I'm sticking with my original post and thinking that Rey running off was because she thought she could "fix" him due to her vision... which was all manipulated by Snoke.

 

*insert ST Luke meme here*
ya'll know which one I'm talkin' bout.

 

Ah yes, nothing but "meaningful connections" in Rogue One.



Joking aside, I get how the ST does feel a bit alien to the rest of the series, but I think that's because it's a really new era and it simply isn't as close to be as fleshed out as something like the Clone Wars or the GCW.

Rogue One had the benefit of being set in an already very well established era.

The sequel trilogy isn't even done yet.

 

That is silly wishful nonsense that none of us can relate to. We aren't some super powered beings. We are human. We relate to human emotions. If we can't relate to it, then it has no meaning.

 

False

 

Agreed.

Relatability can still be conveyed in extraordinary or supernatural means. Hint: look at 2017's Academy Award winner for best picture, Shape of Water.

I'd like to watch the force link scenes again to get more perspective on them, but I think that at the very least it's not fair to say that we can't relate to the emotion in them simply because there was an extraordinary power involved.