THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

Not true at all.

 

The only actual takeaway from that entire post is that the ST trilogy isn't working for YOU, and you liked R1 better.

Coulda saved me a whole lot of reading time.

 

Rey's connection to Kylo is just stupid. A day earlier he killed his own father and then Rey runs to him.

 

Does anyone else listen to TLJ soundtrack when in the Cantina?

 

But the way it is described as each other shadowing the other, Kylo can't move to the light without Rey going dark.

At the end, 2 choices, disconnect themselves to the Force or die.

 

I get your point about victim blaming. I'm not too comfortable with the analogy though.
One reason being this isn't a blame-fest on outsiders but Jedi thinking through the failures of their own Order.

Introspection, self-analysis and acknowledgement of personal responsibility seems a very Jedi approach.
Despite Luke's intentions, wallowing in self-pity and using failure as an excuse for inaction is not.

Hence Yoda's lesson to Luke about the inevitability of failure, errors being portals for discovery, and the importance of optimism.

Technically what the Jedi were supposed to do was whatever fit the story the writer was telling.
In the case of the PT they had to fail at guarding peace and justice in the galaxy and allow a Sith Lord to ascend to power.
I wouldn't have them do much differently.

Thematically it's a fair question but not a simple one!
I doubt I'd have a satisfying answer.
SW poses these questions but likes to leave ambiguity and avoid specifics that might rob a future storyteller from a narrative.

Even Yoda shied away from specifics except to advise on not acting swiftly or out of fear.

"In our arrogance join the conflict swiftly we did.
Fear, anger, hate.
Consumed by the darkside the Jedi were."

"How the Jedi choose to win the question is." - Yoda

We see how acting swiftly out of fear, anger, or hate leads to darkness with the Jedi Order in the PT and Luke in the ST.

Fair call.
I guess we could call Jedi finding themselves in a war an unfortunate position rather than a failure.
It's still just one out of a few questionable (but understandable) decisions the Jedi made against their ethics and better judgement.

Luke's conclusion may have been the same whether the Jedi fought or not.
His perspective in TLJ was understandable even it it was flawed.

• A dark force user rose to a position of hegemony under the Jedi's watch.
• The process was aided by a Skywalker who took part in a Jedi slaughter.
• The scenario repeats itself - this time under Luke's watch and his initiation.

One can see how he might question the place of Skywalkers and Jedi in the universe.
This is the guy known for inspiring evil to do good not vice versa!

I guess I don't see the two ideas as mutually exclusive.
Sure the system failed but that doesn't change the fact the Jedi also failed in their eyes.
Imagine the Jedi in the TLJ blaming the political system!

These ideas were on-screen canon before TLJ.

I don't really want to be able to call them failures (Jedi words not mine)!
I am interested in exploring why they think so though.

Good point, I guess there was some honor in their deaths.
I should have said they would prefer a more honorable death - on their terms and for the greater good.
Not stabbed in the back by brainwashed tools so a Sith to get an easier road to ruling the galaxy!

It's probably fairer to say it's Lost Luke who over simplifies rather than Rian or "TLJ".
At the time Luke thought the Jedi should end.
He wasn't quite himself and may have been wrong.

I do think I better get where you're coming from though.
Thanks for your patience and taking the time to explain yourself in detail.

It's a fair call that TLJ could have taken different directions and been clearer about some things.
I'll see myself out and try to leave you in peace for a bit!

 

Didn't see The Shape of Water, but I think about what Stan Lee said when it comes to creating super heroes. The powers fascinate us, but we relate to the characters humanity. The biggest reason Marvel does well is because all of their characters have human faults. No matter how powerful they are.

 

Agreed, the human pieces of the drama have to be as compelling as the action pieces. Without the story falls apart. I am a fan of ALL sci fi, but the ones I have ended up disliking the most are the ones that drop the ball on the human interactions and the character development trajectories. I think this kind of thing is amplified when it comes to SW, because it's an anthology and not a stand alone... there's a lot more pre-existing universe and metadata that must be navigated (and honored). And when that doesn't happen... you get problems.

 

Luke rather than trying to kill Ben Solo, should have attempted to disconnect Ben from the force. It would redeem Luke and I could live with disgruntled Master Jedi Luke.

I’ll never be able to head canon TLJ as long as Luke tried to kill Leias son, his nephew etc...

 

"Gee, i loved the movie. I thought it was swell. I think its the greatest film that will ever be made in the history of mankind. I guess I better hang out in the thread for people who hated the movie. My life is so grand."

 

You thought it was the greatest film ever made? Well, good for you....I guess.

I thought it had plenty of flaws. Wish we could actually talk about said flaws around here.

 

Really ? People posting in the "THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE" ... actually hate the movie ?

Who would have guessed ?

 

The poster was attempting to make grand claims about the actual impact of the movie to all viewers, including objective claims.

When in actuality, all he said was "I don't like the movie because I don't like the movie."

It's fine not to like the movie. Seriously. But come on...

 

The thing is, one person's flaw is another person's brilliant moment. I thought that the milking scene and Leia Poppins were god awful and stated that on here, only to be responded to by a poster who thought both were so awesome and brilliant and then they proceeded to write a 6 paragraph essay about all the reasons why back to me. Out of curiosity, what did you consider flaws? I'm just wondering if we can find any common ground, but keep in mind that I didn't like this movie at all and can't find a whole lot that isn't a flaw.

 

Sure, I think we're pretty much on the same page with that.

I guess where we disagree is whether or not Star Wars does now feature those human faults, and that's a conversation that's pretty much been done to death.

 

-About 60% of the attempts at humor
-The execution of Leia using the force (not the idea of her using the force, which is fine)
-The reasoning for, and execution of, almost everything pertaining to Canto Bight. It all felt very lazily done
-Holdo being very underwritten. Hyperspace crash was a great moment, but we should have been able to care more
-Most of Holdo's decisions not making very much sense
-Rose's lines after saving Finn. I get what they were going for.....but no.
-BB-8 being mostly slapstick/gags for children
-Phasma

 

I agree with all of this!

-Leia using the force was fine and she should be a force user, all things considered. It was the manner that it was done in. Was this really the best they could come up with? I sat there staring at the scene in disbelief in the theatre, but there were people around me laughing and a view audible "WTH" comments overheard.
-Canto Bight not only felt lazy to me, but it also felt like pointless filler. I'm guessing that it was used for Finn and Rose to spend time together?
- The hyperspace crash was a visually stunning moment, but I could care less about Holdo's death. For me, she came off as cold and unlikeable. I wasn't moved at all when she got blown to smithereens.
-I get what they were trying with Finn and Rose's line, but it fell flat and rather cheesy for me. They just met and were becoming friends, but it the insta-love doesn't work at all. Give them more time together and development a real love story and don't force things that aren't there yet.
- BB-8 is adorable, but they really overplayed their hand with him this time. Spewing out coins like a machine gun? Hijacking the First Order's walker? Yeah, they went WAY overboard with him.
- Phasma, oh boy. So we were all supposed to be excited about this awesome, bad-ass female villain? She popped up once, ran her mouth about killing Rose and Finn for a while, then she gets into the shortest fight ever with Finn and dies. Great, awesome use of this character.

 

Rose and Finn was a terrible flaw.
Rose was a terrible character. I'm older, but I don't think Rose resonated with the kids the way Leia did when I was younger. She is very unlikable. A father or any man can use Rose as an example to teach young boys on the kind of girls to avoid. She was a bully, and showed no respect for a man that sacrificed it all to be free.

 

I feel like he should have NEVER even contemplated it. That doesn't mean you can't have a Luke that changes, but (and I've said this before) what he contemplated was not only out of character for him, but out of character for anyone with the rank of Master Jedi (you never see Qui Gon contemplate this, never Obi Wan, and never Yoda. I know someone will say "but Windu"... he was going after a KNOWN Sith who had just killed 3 other Jedi. Ben wasn't a Sith, hadn't killed any Jedi, hadn't killed any people. This is not something Luke should have contemplated... ever. Luke didn't give up on his father despite the evil he had already done, but he was about to give up based on what his nephew MIGHT do?

There are probably tons of ways to create a believable disillusioned Luke who stays out of the initial fray at the onset of TFA. He could have earnestly believed in the Jedi way (and even maybe adopted it as a religion since the concept had already been introduced) and have it fail spectacularly creating Kylo despite doing everything the Jedi way. That would create a crisis of faith and a feeling that the new war between the Republic and the FO was partially enabled by him.

We get the Luke we get however, not because Rian's hands were tied and this is the only Luke he could create, but because the center piece of Rian's work was creating empathy for Kylo Ren; we are meant to perceive that he was actually wronged by someone (because Kylo can't blame his state of mind on his background and engender any real empathy, he's the son of a general and a princess and a Force Sensitive prodigy). What must push him over the edge, is someone actually wronging him, and so the legacy of Luke Skywalker must be sacrificed towards this end. Why is Kylo so special that Rey doesn't get to have an arc independent of him, that Luke's profile must be sacrificed for his benefit, that Finn must be pushed in to irrelevant sub-plots to give him more space, that Snoke could be offed for no other reason to show Kylo is bad? I don't know. I just know I would have much rather have seen Snoke further involved in the story, Finn being relevant, Rey actually learning from Luke, and Luke actually being Luke.

 

Let’s look at it this way: is the Galactic Senate solely responsible for Palpatine’s rise to power and formation of the Empire? If not, then does that automatically mean they must be entirely blameless?

The message I took from the PT was that the Senate had become too complacent. They no longer questioned their leadership and allowed themselves to be swayed by an orchestrated agenda designed to manipulate their fears. They could have prevented what happened if they’d been more aware, more involved and engaged. That’s Lucas’s fear: that this was the road that America might go down if its people blindly accepted what was handed to them. It’s a cautionary tale.

The Jedi, for me, are an extension of that concept. Lucas is showing us that their fate was indeed preventable. They’d been deceived, but they could have seen through that deception had they allowed themselves to see the bigger picture in front of them. “Your eyes can deceive you, don't trust them.” The lesson being imparted to us isn’t that ‘bad people will do bad things to you and there’s nothing you can do about it’. It’s that our decisions ultimately decide our fate. We are the instruments of our own suffering. Learn from your mistakes (or the mistakes of others) and become better for it.

Eh, whatever, that’s just how I see it.