THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

I hope she gets better roles and scripts to work with outside of these movies. Not because I want to see her go, but because honestly, I want some director or studio to take advantage of the charisma and energy that Kelly very clearly has. She deserves far better than the character she was given.

I don't share the same obsession with Loki that a good chunk of the internet does, but I have no problem voicing my agreement in this regard. Loki absolutely dwarfs Kylo Ren in terms of believable motives, character development, intimidation factor, and having something resembling a character arc. The one scene of Loki descending into insane anguish over learning of his true heritage in the first Thor film has more effective execution and substance than anything Kylo Ren has done so in two films' worth of screentime...

Which is an even more pathetic reality when you realize how aggressively Kylo's writers have attempted to paint him in the same sympathetic light.

 

It's okay if he liked it and then doesn't like it. These films are entertainment after all. It's not objective. It's the sensationalist over the top responses that I find bizarre. A person can like or not like something and it not be "THE WORST THING EVER CREATED" or "THIS IS LIKE CITIZEN KANE!" Star Wars is just supposed to be an entertaining adventure. If one chapter didn't' intrigue you wait until the next chapter.

 

Yes, the over the top responses are quite bizarre. For example, just earlier in the thread, someone was trying to convince us all that "it's easily one of the best Star Wars films ever produced". I mean seriously, how ridiculously over the top and bizarre can someone get???

 

This is a fantastic post, thank you (and yes, I have seen that video. It's very good ) What I believe needs to happen, though, is that a large number of people need to start appreciating TLJ for what it is, and not keep on bitterly hating it for what it could have been. Because, as expressed in the article, you don't have to like what's there, but what is there isn't dumb or bad writing. Is it the best it could have been? Hell no, obviously, as everyone ITT has made very clear. But people need stop getting angry at Rian and his story. The person to blame here is Disney for forcing these movies to come out so damn quickly.

Also, I'd like to butt in on this conversation because I actually thought it was a pretty funny goof. But really I think KeithF1138 kind of hit the nail on the head. I just find it really refreshing to see that Rian *isn't* professional (or as I like to say: a corporate controlled drone ). This is just his personal twitter where he makes jokes and tweets out to his friends. He never even tweeted out any promo stuff for TLJ.

 

Did anyone make this claim [citation needed] or is this just another needlessly divisive strawman to detract from an inconvenient point.

But it's not a joke man, it's social engineering and all part of a conspiracy to undermine “traditional values”.
This is a subtle but pernicious campaign that starts by discouraging meat eating and continues by illustrating male characters learning their lessons at the hands of women. /s

 

Everyone has their own breaking point when it comes to how much bad or disagreeable content they can handle in a film before the distaste grows to the point of resentment. Keep in mind, these aren't one-off films---they're part of a shared continuity. Anything disagreeable or bad that happens in one film can, and more often than not does, have direct impact on the proceeding entry.

And for a lot of people that didn't like TLJ, it ruined a lot more than just emotional investment. It ruined entire characters for them, altered the lore or ruined the Force in ways that future films can't really remedy. It goes beyond the point of simply not impressing or intriguing certain fans...many of them waited decades to see their favorite characters like Luke and Han to return.

And any ideas or plot elements that they take issue with, especially regarding characters like Luke or Han, don't get a second chance at improvement. The damage they're inflicted by the script can't be remedied once they're dead in the story. There isn't going to be some magical, alternate timeline where we get an Episode 8 where Mark Hamill and Harrison will return to play more fulfilling, and less insulting versions of their characters. This is the version of their characters that we got, and now we have to live with it.

It's a lot harder to accept someone telling them "just relax and enjoy the next film" when so much of what they like about Star Wars is wrecked beyond repair. This far exceeds the medial issue of whether or not the film entertained them.

 

I think you nailed it with this post.

 

This is a very strange sentiment to have, though, because none of those elements are objectively ruined, nor were they intended to be ruined.

As a younger guy who didn't grow up with Luke, I find him to be a much more compelling and interesting character with TLJ than he ever was in the OT. In the OT he goes from being this generic, whiney kid, has an adventure, and then destroys the Death Star. Then he rejects the Jedi way in order to save his friends, but then in the end he accepts the Jedi way because I guess the lesson he learned was not to try and save his friends and then he becomes this kind of edgy, cool, moody guy. But in TLJ he actually struggles with the power he gained, tries to run from his mistakes, and ultimately decides to use that power for one last act of good and sacrifices himself for the people he loves -- which is just about the most archetypal way to end a Hero's story. It's incredibly compelling I think. The reason, I believe, that people are so opposed to it, is that does away with the campy power fantasy that made up so much of the character of Luke in the OT. Now if people prefer that campy power fantasy, that's fine I guess, but let's just be clear about what we're talking about here.

I, for one, am really glad that TLJ went in this direction and focused more on the thematic elements instead of *just* trying to be cool. Does that make it inherently less cool? Yes. Post TLJ, SW is not as cool as it was in the past. But it is more real, it's more dramatic, it's more inclusive, it's sillier, and it's more thematically heavy then it's ever been in the past. TLJ has one hell of a heart. Does it put it's heart before it's head? Yeah, big time. It should have been a lot more careful in explaining itself. It's not perfect. But hot damn did it not ruin Star Wars.

 

I think when quoting my post, you should've included the most important line that provides the most context for the entire point I was making: everyone has their own breaking point when it comes to Star Wars.

I never said once, anywhere in my post, that anything that TLJ did was objectively bad, which is why I find it strange that you imply that I did so. I made it explicitly clear that, in many ways, a number of crucial aspects to Star Wars have been ruined for some people. You'll also notice how, nowhere in my post, I referenced at all if that sentiment reflected my feelings on the film...which they don't. Nothing can ruin Star Wars for me, personally, because my canon was and always will be the EU. I, too, am a younger fan who didn't grow up with Luke or the OT, just like you...I was speaking out of experience with people who did, and the specific section who feel that TLJ had ruined a good chunk of their investment in the Star Wars universe for them.

I would also like to make specific mention that in your gushing about how Luke's characterization in TLJ worked for you, you made the assumption that people are most bitter about Luke not being a "campy power fantasy". I'm not necessarily someone who worships Luke the way so many people in the fanbase do (I'm more of an Obi-Wan guy, myself), but I find it extremely condescending that you'd suggest that all disgruntled fans of Luke are displeased with his characterization simply because he wasn't some glowing emblem of perfection. I'm not sure if you're aware, but a lot of why people grew attached to Luke is because of how much he struggled in the OT. I know people love to hail Rian Johnson as some arbiter of originality because he made Luke struggle in TLJ, but what these people forget is all the trials he failed in ESB. His haste caused him to dismiss Yoda upon first meeting him, to where he's scolded and embarrassed with how quickly he judged him. He let his own disgruntled dismissal prevent himself from lifting the X-Wing out of the swamp. He failed his trial in the Cave, where all of his insecurities about failing to follow his father and becoming another failed apprentice like Vader followed him. And probably his most significant mistake, he leapt to conclusions over a hazy vision, impulsively acted upon them, confronted Vader when he wasn't emotionally-restrained or physically ready, and ended up being scarred, manipulated, traumatized and haunted by the consequences of what he learned from the incident. To say Luke didn't fail or struggle in the OT, and to act like TLJ is breaking some new ground by having Luke struggle, is the height of disingenuous dismissal.

And moreover, I can say that the people angriest at Luke's portrayal aren't so much mad at the fact that Rian made Luke struggle---it's how. Mark Hamill reprises the role after almost 30 years, and the character is brought back to the spotlight after an entire film's worth of searching, and what kind of struggle is Luke meant to endure? Why the same exact mistakes he made in his impulsive youth, in the kind of context that is so briefly-explained and poorly-implemented, and does nothing to make the character feel like he's undergone any growth or accumulated any new flaws in all this time we haven't seen him. They brought the character back to use him in the most uncreative and lousy way possible, and gave him the kind of anti-climactic send-off that couldn't even begin to remedy or justify the poor handling of his character up till that point. It's the literal equivalent of someone pushing you to the ground, and then apologizing by sneezing on you.

And all of this would be fine for some knock-off EU novel, or some bad fanfiction, or lousy plot for a video game. That can be retconned, fixed with mods, written out, or revised to meet a new standard. What TLJ did to Luke isn't reparable---Mark Hamill isn't going to do a re-do of his role in this film, and TLJ will never be re-shot or re-written. This inconsistent redemption arc and nonsensical attempt at making Luke repeat past mistakes is now welded onto his character, and compounded with his death. And no amount of sugar-coating from defenders or repeated bleatings of "Well I liked it, so it's not ruined" is going to repair the situation for people that are upset with TLJ's Luke.

Now, as stated: I don't have issues of this magnitude. In my opinion, Luke's characterization doesn't even spit on the twelve-hundred pound dumpster fire that is Kylo Ren, and how much he poisons this film, continuity, and dramatic impact of the ST overall. But I absolutely understand why people are upset about Luke...

...just like how I understand why people were upset over the PT when it came out, despite me loving those films. The difference between you and me, however, is I don't try and project blanket assumptions about those opposed to the film, in an insecure attempt to rationalize my liking of it.

 

Just a little not about civility. After admitting you're not a Luke guy you presume to speak for the people who are angriest about Luke. This is perfectly fine. Speculating about what works and doesn't work for people is an important element of discussion.
However...

I believe you owe @Kestrel a little more respect than what you show here. If it's okay for you to speculate then it's okay for him to speculate. It's certainly not condescending.

 

Alright, sorry, I should have made it more clear that I wasn't replying to you in particular. I was responding to the sentiment of those who *did* think that the character of Luke was ruined which is why I only quoted that part of your post.

Maybe subconsciously this is just a desperate attempt at me justifying the fact that I loved TLJ. But really, honestly, I just want the bitterness and anger to end. I want people to stop being angry at SW, I definitely want people to stop being angry at my boy Rian, and I feel like presenting another perspective is the best way to help people come to terms with what we got.

 

I have to ask, besides his sister, does he really give a s**t? He had all kinds of time to make amends with Leia, but developed no relationship with Rey nor the resistance ever, as far as we know. Do you mean the force when you say campy power? Sacrifice himself for people he loved - wasn't that what he was doing in the OT? I don't remember him doing anything else....


A) What I got



B) What pretentious, presumptuous, smug, iconoclastic twits assume I wanted ( guess how many work for LFL)



C) Versions of what I would have loved to see







*I really could have lived with something between A & B.

 

By campy power fantasy I just mean that people like Luke in the OT don't exist in real life. Kids liked to pretend they were Luke, going on this grand adventure and becoming this cool laser
-sword wielding space wizard. But people like Luke in TLJ *do* exist. There are Heroes who struggle with their legendary status, who make mistakes, run from them, and many die that way, unfulfilled. But Luke chose not to end up that way. He made the choice to face his mistakes and return to the young person he once was by saving what he loved in one last act of Jedi pacifism.

Ok, first of all calm down with B. That was a joke, and a pretty funny one at that, lol. The thing here is that both A and B are very imperfect versions of Luke. Asking for C would be asking for a perfect version of Luke. And that's not an inherently bad thing to ask for, but it doesn't provide any room for growth nor does it provide any real weight to the decisions he makes. It's also not realistic.

Again, I'm not saying it's wrong to want C but it's also not wrong for RJ to have chosen A. He decided to give Luke one last significant arc before he goes and that requires him starting off unideally.

Besides, there's nothing preventing him from coming back as a ghost whose much more aligned with C. And if you read Shattered Empire or Legends of Luke, you get a sense that in the time between RotJ and TFA, he's a lot more aligned with C. Presumably we'll be getting a lot more stories like that in the future with both new shows being set in that time period.

 

Sorry, but it is not well written. Shall I go through the numerous problems I have with the way it was written? I'm not concerned with the "critics." They, for the most part, aren't a. fans of Star Wars and b. fans of science fiction/fantasy. I've said it in other posts, perhaps not that one, that after the first viewing I was unsettled by the film. I never liked seeing Luke milk a whatever that was. I didn't like Canto Bight from the start and I didn't like Leia poppins. I then saw the film two more times and convinced myself it was good. I mean, the critics couldn't be wrong could they?

THEN I viewed it without the fan boy glasses on. I don't want to go into what I do too much, but suffice it to say I'm a professional historian. I watched it and there were way too many problems. Yes, the cinematography is outstanding. Rian got good performances out of his actors. That's not the problem.

The characters are weakly written. Rey is, at the end of the day, a perfect example of Mary Sue. I also hate the Reylo thing they had going on. She watched him kill his own father and yet she's attracted to him? Too weird for me. If others like it, that's up to them but yeah, leave me out of that.

Rose Tico is another poorly developed character. Potential is there, and the actress is fantastic. Too bad she is wasted.

Luke... The early warning sign was when Mark said he had to come up with his own back story to explain why Luke was where he was. Excuse me??? The director who is also the writer had no back story for this? What we saw in the film was flimsy as far as explanations go.

Finally why reboot the reboot? That is essentially what Johnson did. Why? It makes no sense and does not speak highly for both Kathy Kennedy and the story group. There is obviously NOT a plan for the ST. That is just mind blowing.

Actually I own it. I own every Star Wars film as well as every season of The Clone Wars and Rebels. Don't make assumptions that simply because I changed my mind over a period of six months that somehow I'm being influenced by others. I wouldn't do that to you, so please give me the same respect. I get it that people liked the film. About 50% do. But about 50% don't. What I'm tired of is the people who hate it get dismissed as being too stupid to get it, or simply a group of racists and sexists.

 

There's no scientific data to support this claim. We know TLJ is more divisive. There's no reason to exaggerate it.

You just asked me to view the film with a "critical eye." Don't you think that's a tad bit condescending? Suggesting I'm just not looking close enough to see "bad writing." Who in this forum has said people who hate the film "are too stupid to get it?" We bend over backwards pointing out over and over that there are people with valid complaints who aren't sexist/bigots. No one in this forum is doing that. However, you might want to avoid politically charged rhetoric like calling Rey "Mary Sue" if you don't want to get labeled.

 

I was calling his remarks condescending, not the user himself. Civility isn't broken when people take issue with statements, rather than people. No attack on character is being made here....I just objected to the broad and baseless nature of the statement he was making. The remark itself is this:

"The reason, I believe, that people are so opposed to it, is that does away with the campy power fantasy that made up so much of the character of Luke in the OT. Now if people prefer that campy power fantasy, that's fine I guess, but let's just be clear about what we're talking about here."​

Now, if I went over to the Prequel forum, and I said that the reason people didn't like the Prequels is because the midichlorians did away with their "hokey spirituality fetish", categorizing all disgruntled fans the same through verbliage like "people" instead of isolating a specific group, especially on a particular thread dedicated to hosting opinions of those disgruntled or disappointed with the film, you can bet I'd receive a ton of blowback.

Waltzing into a thread like this and proclaiming why people didn't like the film in such a brazen, absolutist manner adds nothing to the discussion. And I think @Kestrel himself became aware of it, because he corrected the record about what he was referring to specifically.

Believe me, I don't like seeing bitterness and anger in the fanbase either. I myself am not broken up by the presence of these new films---most of them just make me appreciate the originality, world-building, and execution of all my favorite EU material---and ripping into the new films is secondary to the bulk of all my Star Wars-related pastime. But another reason I'm so repulsed by these new films is the way they've driven away longtime fans of this franchise. Whether or not the writers or directors intended it or not, they have succeeded in creating so much distraught anguish and the severing of emotional investment that a lot of fans have in this series....some of which are fans who have been collecting, investing, reading, and enjoying Star Wars material since before I was even born. I like to think of myself as a massive fan, but I've only been a fan for about 13 years of my life: some people have been invested in this series for well over thirty years, and most of them have stuck with the franchise out of unconditional love for the world and characters.

And seeing so many posts, so many stories on the Force.net, Rebelscum, Reddit, and other places of those same fans imparting their worst experiences with this film, being emotionally-devastated by TLJ, voice their inability to watch and enjoy the older films anymore, getting rid of decades-worth of merch, and leaving this franchise behind them for good is heart-wrenching. I have a tremendous amount of respect for fans to treat an entity like Star Wars as a passion, not a fad, to preserve investment in it for strings of time that I haven't even lived yet as a young adult...and seeing so many of them leave in droves is upsetting.

Star Wars isn't ruined for me, and it never will be, but it certainly is for a lot of people, regardless of how I and others attempt to reason and console them to stay. They can't unsee the damage that's been done to Luke and the others, largely because the legitimacy of these films is unshakable: they aren't bad fanficton or retconned EU novels (though they certain feel like it in writing quality), they're official sequels with the actors reprising their roles after decades of absence from the franchise. That's not something you can wave away with: "Just turn off your brain and enjoy it" or "don't take Star Wars so seriously" or "Stop being so dramatic, nothing is ruined" or "just stop being so bitter and angry...be more optimistic". None of that is even remotely helpful or encouraging to people who have had investment in this character and world for almost their entire lives. Enjoying the film is fine, but anyone going into this discussion and trying to justify TLJ by telling older fans about how what they liked about the OT was "campy and fantastical, with the ST being SO much more emotionally-grounded and thought-provoking" isn't going to sway anyone. That's like tearing down someone's favorite restaurant, replacing it with inferior food, and then justifying the step down in quality by telling the customers that the previous restaurants' food is inferior, and that's why they should like the new food.

I enjoy the Prequel Trilogy where a lot of people don't, but I don't try and justify it by making claims of what it did better than the OT. In fact, most of the time, I get by largely by defending what the films did originally, what new and isolated innovations it brought to its own story. But with the ST being so formulaic and derivative of the previous movies, they can't even be defended on THOSE grounds.

So you not only have people telling disgruntled fans to get over their disappointment and resentment with the film by telling them that what they liked about the OT really isn't that good compared to TLJ, but you have the films themselves constantly remind the audience how much of the OT they're stealing from, recycling, and re-using for the ST plot. And that's salt in an open wound for most people: these movies are already without merit and a slap in the face, but they have to consistently remind them about the legacy they're trashing and stealing from in the process. I know that sounds pretty extreme, and I myself thought it was when a few disgruntled fans first told me, but then I witnessed the movie's Throne Room scene with Snoke. Given how shamelessly that scene was stolen, in a manner that hadn't been earned or built up properly by the story even remotely, combined with everything that had been done to Luke, I could easily see why people could be so disgusted. I myself was.

And while these films haven't necessarily ruined Star Wars for me---if anything, they've made me grow more protective of the Prequel Trilogy and EU materials I took for granted when I was younger---but I understand why less patient and more emotionally-invested fans than me are disappointed by these films. And every time I see hordes of extremeists and media outlets proclaim that there's nothing wrong with the films, and the fans leaving in droves or expressing their disappointment are the problem, I get infuriated. It's such a dismissive attitude of the exact demographic these films were made for---not PT-loving kids like me, enamored with my comics and games, but older fans who wanted to see Han, Luke, and Leia back. The same audience these films are so desperately trying to cater to are being told to appreciate everything the film does better than the OT, to embrace the diverse but empty cast of characters, or simply screw off to their bigotry-infested man-caves.

Behavior like this:

That. That kind of response to criticism, to emotional dissent, to fan divide, that's been on bulging and swollen display for months is what made me create an account here and join so many Star Wars forums in the recent months. The defenses of this film, the characterization of fans, and the dismissive attitude of both the media and Lucasfilm themselves is so appalling that I had to add my voice to the conversation....especially if I can communicate on behalf of the many fans I've watched leave the community.

And it's also to provide the same perspective older fans have from a much younger voice. There's this pretentious, hipster-esque narrative being spun that the bulk of the people who dislike TLJ are crotchety old fans who are married to nostalgia accumulated through multiple viewings of the OT. I am here to shatter that narrative, and make it known that plenty of younger and newer fans hate TLJ just as much, if not more.

 

That's all well and good, but why aren't you applying the same standard to your speculative claims?

Just because you don't like the film doesn't make you the sole arbitrator of why people are angry about Luke. You're shooting from the hip just like @Kestrel. Again, that's fine, but it would be nice if you afforded him the same right to speculate as you are doing.

 

While there isn't any "scientific" data to suggest it, there is plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest it is the most divisive Star Wars film ever. Is the RT score scientific? Of course not. But obviously there is something wrong when the score for the film, amongst fans, is that low. How many Youtubers are bashing the film and have, in the last 6-7 months, seen their subscribers list grow? Quite a few. Again, not scientific, but indicative of the fact that a large percentage of the fan base is upset.

I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I had a discussion with a former student, who proudly considers herself an SJW and a fan of Star Wars. She's also an animation artist who hopes to one day fork for Disney. She herself (she's Mexican American for what its worth) used the term Mary Sue to describe Rey. After I asked her, "So what did you REALLY think of the Last Jedi. Be honest, as I'm not going to judge either way." Again, anecdotal, but combined with the RT score, the Youtube channels, the very large drop in DVD and toy sales AND the absolute Bomb that was Solo, you'd be crazy to think The Last Jedi didn't have a negative effect.

I'll answer your statements, but I notice you avoid the fact that you were quite condescending of me. Fair enough. However, I don't recall saying "you should view it with a critical eye." I do, however, remember you saying that I was simply influenced by others and not coming to my own conclusions. And there has been plenty of people who have said that if you don't like the film you aren't smart enough to get it. I'm not going to go back and search hundreds of pages worth of posts. If you haven't seen them then I'll acknowledge you haven't seen them. But they are there.

As for political charged rhetoric, Rey is a Mary Sue. If she was better written then perhaps that charge wouldn't fit. What did she fail at? Oh, yes, I know, converting Kylo. And her consequences for that were.... Remind me again? How did she suffer for her failure? Luke lost a hand and just about lost his life. Rey? Oh, she had a broken light saber... Odd how it exploded and yet the crystal suffered no damage. But I'm sure I'm just being nit-picky.

If I was being condescending I do apologize. I wasn't attempting to say you weren't viewing the film critically. I said I WASN'T, and once I removed my fan-boy glasses I found it quite disappointing. The comments were and are about me. Not about you. Not about anyone else. Me and my experience.

 

Sadly, I don't think that's going to happen. This anger is nothing new. It's been a part of Star Wars forever. Maybe it's a testament of how popular the series is that it's always going to provoke over the top responses to each chapter. There's a Wired article from last year about the actor who played Jar Jar binks that touches on this...

We're seeing similar things with The Last Jedi, but it's a different this time since most people like the film. However, the tactics are the same. People are harassing the actors/directors/producers. Even some of the non-toxic types can't talk about the film without exaggerating about it. It does seems that some of the heat is finally off the prequels now that time has passed. This seems to be the natural order of things.

This is from Katie Lucas in 2011.

I don't think it's a bad idea to ask people to relax about Star Wars.

 

Because all of my claims are either about my opinion on the film, or based on first-hand experience with people who don't like the film even more than I do.

That's not me making broad, ill-informed assumptions about why people didn't like the movie in general. That's me speaking out of what people have told me personally, and a pattern I've recognized on many places like the Criticism Board on the Force.Net and the anti-TLJ subreddit SalteirThanCrait. And even then, I'm not characterizing an entirety of people, just those I've encountered.

I never claimed to be. Again, personal observations on trends I see everywhere I post. It isn't anything definitive, concrete or objective. I made reference of that plenty of times in my block of text I replied to @Kestrel with.