THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

But remember that Lord of the Rings (among my favourite movies) are based on a literary masterpiece. While it's true that apart from that, the movies are brilliant on their own, I think they are not comparable to the OT trilogy. They have nothing in common except the "magic" stuff.

(also, the fact that they are based on literature, makes it easier for the Academy to nominate them in my opinion).

Again, Empire rules!

 

I wouldn't presume to answer for @Darth_Nobunaga but I never felt that the PT was without a plan and without value. I always felt there was certainly value, and the overall story and ideas were good. It was the execution that was lacking. That and the directing of the actors. The fall of Anakin, however, as a worthwhile story. The downfall of the Jedi as well as the rise of the Sith, all of that was cool. I personally don't see that in this trilogy, and it is 2/3 of the way over.

JJ could bring it home, and I truly hope he does, but it doesn't remove the fact that the ST has been an unplanned mess.

 

I completely agree!
For all the execution issues I have with the prequels and I have a fair few, the one thing you can't take away from the PT is that it has an excellent story behind it.

I can't say the same about the ST, it just seems so disjointed like there was no plan for the three films. I just think TLJ is a terrible story and that's why I have it bottom of my list of Star Wars films.

 

That picture is from Kylo Ren's perspective. The scene where Luke reveals what actually happened only shows this:

 

Doesn't change much the matter to be honest ...

 

Right on. I'm sorry I just saw this and I'm responding a few days after you said it, but the attitude exhibited by her, and others associated with LFL, Chuck "unhinged" Wendig comes to mind, is appalling. They seriously need to be told to settle down or handed pink slips.

The more I see/hear/read this stuff from LFL the more I realize they are clueless. And it starts at the top.

 

Please explain why it's appalling for Geek Girl to have an opinion about customers? I'm curious. Also, what specifically did Wendig say that is unhinged? People are allowed to have opinions. Let's be clear, there's are two people the general public doesn't know or care about. Some of the Marvel directors have been extremely vocal about politics. They're much more high profile. It doesn't seem to be hurting Marvel.

If you really want to see unhinged look at the hate directed at people at Lucasfilm over the decades. It's odd that some are more concerned about the feelings of trolls than of people simply doing their jobs.

 

You can absolutely keep liking the film. No one, least of all me, is stopping you. You also can keep trying to show people why you like it (even though the nature of this thread in particular raises some doubts about how effective you'll be around here). There's nothing inherently silly about that.

It's how you try to make people like it as much as you do that's somewhat questionable. As mentioned, one of the primary reasons that so many people feel alienated and disgusted by TLJ is precisely what it did to taint the world and characters of the OT...that's a consistent aspect of why so many people hate this film. Given that, I don't think the wisest method of trying to sell this movie's appeal is to try and state how much better it is than "the campy fantastical absurdity of the OT." You aren't going to win any favors through that method...as I mentioned, it would be like me trying to defend the Prequel Trilogy on the same grounds, of what it does better than the OT.

A sounder approach would be to defend TLJ by what it does well on a unique basis, what great things it does within the context of its own story, not Star Wars overall. That maybe the only saving grace to people who genuinely hate this film, because it'll make them appreciate it for what it did on its own.

That's precisely how reception towards the PT has grown more favorable over the years, by people appreciating what it did differently and uniquely on its own merits. (An aspect that's a lot harder to defend with the ST, given how much of the films aren't its own content and are in fact shameless steals of the OT, which is why this tactic wouldn't necessarily work with me).

I wasn't trying to shatter any narrative. I was merely stating what I've found to be true in my own experiences on different forums.

I have friends of my own who really liked TLJ when it came out, and were all having a friendly go at me for staying at home during the premiere: "Oh, Nobu, you sad nerd, stop clinging to the older films and EU and just see the movie! It's actually really good!" ...only to have them come at me a week later, and start ranting about how much of that film didn't work for them. It was an immediate trend I noticed among everyone I talked to, from family, to friends, to online forums, where once the immediate, emotional impressions of the film wore off, and they began to entertain the logic and tangible merit of the film itself, problems immediately began to form in their mind. The phenomenon of people turning against this film isn't as large as some people make it out to be, but it certainly wasn't small, either. The fact that so few people opted to pick this film up on rental or Blu-Ray in comparison to TFA really shows the decline in favor. That isn't mindless hate or bigotry in action---that's a literal display of people's expectations for the film not being met, or their infatuation for the film not lasting in the months following the film's release.

As far as people like me "being rare" goes, that isn't even remotely true. Go to the Saltier Than Crait Subreddit or TheForce.Net and even the Star Wasr Reddit sometimes....they are literally filled with critical and restrained responses of distaste and ire towards this film, without any of the politically-charged or immature behavior displayed by the part of the fanbase that's given all the publicity these days: both of these forums have strict anti-toxicity policies and harassment of the people involved in this film---both because of how it muddies the water and contributes to the bad image of detractors of this film, but also because the more critical and verbally-expressive of us don't want to mimic the kind of immature behavior on display from the other side of the debate....namely, people like Paul S. Kemp and Chuck Wendig. When we start resorting to name-calling and attacks like them, we sink to their level. And moreover, the Saliter Than Crait Subreddit is interesting because it largely has he same goal I do: to offer non-vulgar and non-politicized criticism of the film through points that people may or may not have brought up yet. This kind of behavior isn't rare in the slightest. You just have to know where to look.

How are any of my points or contentions with the film enabling hate-filled, angry people? The only people I even remotely represent are the fans that have left out of anguish and disgust---and most of them, I don't even 100% agree with or share opinions with, largely because they're infinitely-more attached to the OT than I am.

Not one of my points has ever been towards race or gender or any sideshow circus nonsense being turned into drama via YouTube and Twitter, because they have nothing to do with my issues with the ST. My issues have always been in the lack of originality, poor writing, incompetent directing, atrocious charcterizations, and some of the worst world-building I've ever seen in fiction.

In other words....things that actively and actually damage Star Wars as a brand.

I don't know exactly what you're insinuating with this, but let me make something very clear: I'm not the arbiter of anyone's opinions but my own.

And if my continued insistence to berate and criticize Lucasfilm for all the maladies they've inflicted on the brand "enables a position of hate within the fanbase", then prepare to watch me enable that hatred all day while I post here. I'm a consumer that is displeased with the quality of a product, and I express that disdain without vulgarity or politically-charged vitriol...and it just so happens that the issues I have mirror a lot of people who have left the fanbase, and are being demonized by both media outlets and the more high-strung defenders of these films. I don't see how that enables anything besides a legacy of people like me refusing to eat the fecal waste of movies like TLJ simply because it's Star Wars, and openly calling for quality to improve.

And believe me, I will always prioritize the quality of a brand or franchise over the warm smiling and fuzzy feelings of those who enjoyed the film. I'm sure there's a fringe group of people with poor taste that enjoyed BvS and Suicide Squad...that doesn't make the legacy of those films anything outside of poor quality and atrocious writing. And Warner Bros. certainly knows that, given how many people they've fired and re-hired in an attempt to course-correct the downward plummet of the DCEU films.

The legacy of TLJ should've been one of quality. It wasn't, and ended up being one of divide. And if openly calling for better quality and opposing the lack of maturity on both sides of the debate makes me an "enabler of hate", then I will happily take that title to the rest of my accolades, right next to "Prequel Defender" and "EU Fanboy."

It's better than simply lapping up poor-quality films in a sad attempt to embrace positivity.

I suppose that's where you and I diverge when it comes to want we want out of storytelling.

The storytelling choices didn't make sense to me, and I wasn't willing to suspend my disbelief in order to better immerse myself in the drama/conflict the writer is attempting...because I never had to do that with any past Star Wars film, let alone the TV shows.

That is not a compromise I'm willing to make. I shouldn't have to lower my standards for the quality of the writing and characterization to make sense.

If you were an alcoholic in a story, and you accidentally killed one of your own children in a drunk driving accident, then the trauma and devastation of that event would absolutely convince you never to touch a drop of alcohol again.

There's having a weakness, and then there's having an emotional or pivotal moment in your life as a consequence of that weakness. And for Luke to never work at avoiding that weakness again, and in fact stumbling straight back into it as a learned and wise Jedi Master is insulting. It almost makes it look like the experience from the last time he made this mistake hasn't rattled him or caused him to learn from it in the slightest.

Which is an incredible lack of growth for someone like Luke Skywalker.

We could spend hours speculating on what Luke did between films, and what we perceive him to be....
...or, we could do what I do, and only use what the films give us. And the films give us Luke being traumatized and scarred from a mistake he made in the ESB, apologizing to Yoda for it and learning from it in ROTJ, and then making it again 30 years later because Rian couldn't think of a new flaw, mistake, or emotional obstacle to give Luke.

He can absolutely succumb to weakness and personal struggles. He did that in the EU, and he can absolutely do that here. It's all about the nature and execution of that weakness...which I argue was atrocious on a multitude of levels.

Then why is that weakness exploited in the exact same fashion? Because Rian couldn't think of another way to exploit this kind of weakness.

That's where my issue lies. I will compound this as many times as I need to.

Except Yoda wasn't made to make the exact same mistake again. In his exile on Dagobah, he never repeated his mistake of participating in a conflict raging in the galaxy around him, or attempting to subvert the Chosen One prophecy by facing the Emperor himself, or letting himself be blinded by the shroud of the Dark Side. You know why? Because that had already cost him dozens of younglings, dead allies, and a Republic falling to ruin. The consequences of that mistake devastated him, and made a conceited effort not to make it again.

And that mistake affected him at a severely older age. One would think that Luke's traumatic experiences as a young man would force him to avoid those mistakes even more at a severely older age. Make new ones, sure, but not repeat the ones that scarred him the most in life. That's terrible writing.

Yes, Luke being swayed by the Dark Side almost 30 years after the last time we're ever shown him coming within an inch of being affected by it makes total sense. He's opened an Academy, trained a wealth of students, maintained peace and serenity without incident for literal decades...and then just warps into raging Dark Side Berserker Mode out of left field, just because of a vision he saw, in spite of the impactful experiences and lessons he's learned from regarding this matter.

Nothing about this feels shoe-horned in or poorly-planned in the slightest. Makes total sense.

See my previous post.

If they wanted to make this more believable, they should've showcased incidents in which Luke had shown more Dark Side Tendancies in the immediate aftermath of ROTJ, where his near-Dark Side descent was still fresh and marked on him. This is precisely why Dark Empire made sense in the EU, because it was only a few years after the incident with Vader and Palpatine.

Having this randomly become a problem for Luke in old age, especially given the Academy, students and Jedi wisdom he's supposedly accumulated in all these decades, makes about as much sense as Kylo's motives for turning to the Dark Side.

As in, none.

So let me get this straight:

Luke, fresh from the trauma and emotional manipulation in ESB, being toyed and mentally probed by both Palpatine and Vader, while his friends and allies are being killed outside the window of the space station they're standing on, thus leading to Luke breaking emotionally under immediate terror and pressure over Vader threatening to take away everything of him---a reasonable fear, given all the sins and atrocious acts that Vader has committed thus far---and thus almost turning to the Dark Side as a result.

VS.

Luke, with years of experience as a Jedi Master, tempered and wise enough to found an Academy and train multiple students, with patience and understanding of a teacher, sees a vision of his friends dying at Kylo Ren's hands, experiencing said vision in the calm and tranquil walls of his Jedi Temple, over the sight of his sleeping nephew who hasn't even committed these crimes yet thus giving Luke plenty of contextual room and time to address the situation rationally and logically, and yet leaps into instant Dark Side temptation IMMEDIATELY.

Are you actually arguing that the stakes for these events, the context, the surrounding situation, are the same and therefore justify Luke making the same mistake twice? Because they are not only not the same, but not even remotely comparable.

I don't acknowledge any options outside of what the films and canon tells us. And even if I did, I shouldn't have to bend this scene to 75% of my own assumptions and head-canon when it is the emotional crutch of the film, and the entire reason Luke has been in exile this entire time. This is a pivotal moment in the story by which the dramatic weight and tension of the entire Force-related sub-plot of the film rests.

What I imagine about Luke, and what he's done between films is irrelevant. The only thing the matter is what the film shows and provides. It is Rian's job to provide the context and information to justify everything that Luke does...and when the foundation for it is so weak and phony that it makes Luke's entire exile and redemption seem illegitimate and poorly-conceived, the blame falls exclusively on him, not me for failing to mentally entertain a thousand ways that Luke may have ended up in this situation and context prior to this movie.

I didn't have to do that with previous Star Wars movies, and I'm not about to lower my standards for this one.

Nice Thrawn Trilogy reference.

Unfortunately, when the new paramaters directly contradict with the paramaters and consistency of the prior films, I'm not going to accept it lying down. The Luke we received isn't bad merely because it doesn't line up with head-canon...it's a bad characterization because it wasn't set up well, explained well, justified by anything substantial consistent or logical, or executed well in the scenes it was showcased in.

Luke's characterization in the EU wasn't always consistent or true to the films, but you didn't have such massive, plot-determining, drama-providing scenes of galaxy-shattering relevance depending on the legitimacy of the characterization. This scene with Luke, literally creating the antagonist of this sequel trilogy, did.

And in my opinion, it failed, and demonstrates not only how little Rian Johnson understands Luke's character, but how much of the pre-established characterizations, lore, consistency and logic he's willing to compromise in order to accomplish his incredibly incompetent and juvenile attempts at creating drama.

Here's the thing. It is not my job as the consumer to do the writing for the people HIRED to make these films.

Effective writing and storytelling should be so tight, so rigid, so well-executed that it literally prevents audience speculation, and encourages only emotional interpretation or reaction. The fact that so much of Luke and Kylo's dynamic requires fans to fish around in their minds for assumptions or head-canon to make the flimsy writing even remotely plausible should showcase how ineffectively the writing did its job.

When watching The Clone Wars or Rebels, I'm never speculating on the finer details of what's going on, what basic character motivations are, and how consistent any of the actions or drama occurring on-screen lines up with what's been pre-established by the films. The amount of writing, development, planning, and implementation of core universe rules almost eliminate the need to probe about for speculation or head-canon. That's what effective storytelling does---the writers go out of their way to provide enough details, and establish those details effectively with believability and competence so that audience is never questioning the legitimacy of it all, or pondering plot-holes, or furrowing brows at questionable out-of-character actions...so nothing gets in the way between the writers and thing they're targeting from the audience: emotional and intellectual engagement.

The fact that so many people have to overcome walls of logical inconsistency, ineffective detailing, poor communication of character motives, and hacky writing tactics in order to properly enjoy TLJ---simply put, to turn their brain of---OR literally write the story themselves through head-canon, should demonstrate how poor of a job the writers did with this trilogy.

No one was writing in details or going through mental gymnastics of this magnitude for Avengers: Infinity War, because that film serviced enough details and executed everything fine. People aren't discussing plot-holes or inconsistent characterizations....people were too busy reacting to WHAT happened in the actual film.

Believe me, I did the same kind of self-deceiving attempts at rationalizing my disappointment with TFA when it came out. My first part-time job was at a movie theater at the time TFA was out, and I was allowed free admissions to films. I literally watched TFA six more times, trying to convince myself that it was good or work my own head-canon and assumptions to better defend the film's merits.

Quite poetically, on my 7th attempt at watching Ep. 7, I finally stood up mid-film, accepted that I was doing more narrative leg-work than the writers had done for the film they had been tasked to make, and left the theater. I haven't payed for a Star Wars movie since.

It's far better to funnel time, money, and investment into something like Rebels, which only took one viewing to convince me of all the things it did well.

They're never going to wipe the slate clean---that much I'm sure of. The only practical way that anyone can salvage things at this point is just to start a new storyline and era from scratch, one that distances itself chronologically and narratively from the ST, and build the rest of the franchise off of that. With time and luck, the ST will vanish into obscurity and be a bad dream in passing that no one will ever have to acknowledge again.

Unfortunately, that requires more faith in Rian Johnson's trilogy than he's earned, so I've committed to a safer choice: go back to reading EU books, and make that my continuation of the story. And if you check my post on the "Your Star Wars Reading List" thread, I haven't regretted that decision in the slightest.

I would make some remark regarding the laughable difference in approaches to both the ST and the PT, but @Darth Wardawg basically verbalized my exact stance on the matter. Instead, I'd like to address the rest of your statement, the part on "perspective."

The cycle of the ST started over three years ago with TFA. The writers and overseers of the new films/canon have had every chance to flesh things out and make things interesting. The actual films have been a joke, and the spin-off material has ranged between mediocre and outright terrible. The era, the characters involved, the conflict, and the aesthetics have all been on a consistent downward spiral since this trilogy started. And it has been seven months since TLJ was released. I've had plenty of exposure to the materials, the soundtrack, and the novelization released in succession to the film.

Time and distance has absolutely nothing to do with the quality the ST or the Last Jedi---I didn't need time and therapy to enjoy the previous movies, or for my enjoyment of them to sustain themselves over the entire decade of non-film dormancy that followed ROTS. The ST movies were terrible on release, and have only festered in the time that has followed, and LFL has done absolutely nothing to change my opinion of that. On the contrary, the more I find out about the ST---from production details, to continued world-building in the novels such as the laughable revelations regarding Kylo's Dark Side descent like parental neglect and his abuse from a droid---have only continued to fuel my distaste for the current films and stories.Time and distance didn't save Suicide Squad, BvS, Pirates of the Carribbean 5, Ghostbusters, Terminator Genisys, Alien 3, or any of the putrid film-going experiences that I pray to this very day I could take back and unsee. Time and distance has only made me hate them more. The ST is no different. The longer this continuity goes on for, the more unoriginality and poor storytelling choices the LFL Storygroup and screenwriters showcase, the more I utterly despise their direction with the franchise. It's the complete opposite of the PT era for a fan like me, where I was getting good movies AND good supplementary materials everywhere I looked.

It has nothing to do with personal bias---this is the hand I've been dealt. With the sole exception of Rebels, the new canon and stories have offered almost nothing in terms of bold, original, expansive, and compelling content...no redeeming qualities, no long-lasting items of value, nothing.

I'm happy you see value in all of it, but do not count on me changing my tune. The most you can expect is for me to intensify it.

If the food you're eating is so raw and drastically undercooked that you can't swallow it, that isn't your cue to lick your lips and ask for second helpings.

There isn't enough good in the current stories, and since Rebels exist, I'm well aware that the people creating these films can absolutely do better with the budget and resources they've been afforded. And the response to that downward spiral of quality isn't to cheer and congratulate the people involved for failing to deliver a quality product.

It's to take my money elsewhere, berate the franchise for descending into low-quality, the utmost assurance that I will shower them in money when the product is good. I'm not going to shower praise and money over something that isn't satisfactory---especially when it's something like irreparable sequels to my favorite film franchise, when they will never get a second chance at getting made or having all of the classic actors reprising their roles again.

This was a once-in-a-lifetime chance to continue the story with the original characters, and it underdelivered on a massive scale, and did more damage to the franchise than any sequel or revival I've ever seen.

I'm not going to adopt a blindly-optimist outlook when I've been handed so little to inspire confidence, sorry. I'm not that kind of fan.

WHAT attempt? Seriously, what attempt?

You mean kickstarting a trilogy without any kind of plan or storytelling layout? You mean rehashing the OT to the point of borderline plagiarism? You mean publishing one-shot and inconsequential cash-in novels to replace decades' worth of ambitious storylines and wildly-original characters in the EU? You mean pumping out protagonists that service the most basic and forgettable of story roles, and have the lasting impact and generational appeal of dishwater? You mean reign in all spin-off material like comics and novels so that almost all of it takes place in the same era, killing creativity and product variety along with it?

You call THAT an attempt that warrants merit? Because it is a poor and lazy one.

This is exactly the kind of standard I'm never going to adopt.

When you express this sentiment publicly, when you project this towards the filmakers and writers spearheading this franchise, you know what you're telling them? That they have no reason to improve. That they have no reason to believe that this approach they're taking is flawed in anyway, or could use work. That they have no reason to believe they're going in the wrong direction, or could implement better execution in their next attempt.

That creates a terrible precedent for future films and products in this franchise. That is rewarding bad work and poor quality with acceptance.

You'll never catch me doing that, especially with film sequels that will never have another chance at getting remade or fixed in our lifetime.

A good product makes you only think about what you were given, and never lets you entertain the possibility of a better alternative. No one coming from Avengers Infinity War lamented about how they could've gotten a better film...they were gushing over the film they had, because the product itself was tightly-executed and satisfactory enough to avoid being subject to dissatisfaction.

I wouldn't have to keep vocalizing how much better the ST could be if it had given me SOMETHING to work with---but between its unoriginal plundering of elements from the OT, its empty and vapid protagonists, to its disgracing of legacy characters, to its piss-poor world-building, it has left me with NOTHING but things to critique.

When you are completely starved of good content, you are going complain until things get better. The unproductive approach would be to try and scream happily over the groans of your empty stomach. That's blind fanboyism and trying to rationalize poor quality with blind positivity.

Demanding better products as a consumer is how we get better products in the future. The backlash against the recent DC films and their plummeting box-office returns weren't just shouts in the wind: Warner Bros. heard the outcry from audiences, and are scrambling to salvage their film universe: they've fired many directors, have completely restructured their Story Group overseeing the continuity of their later films, and are going with the stand-alone film approach fans have been asking for from the beginning, instead of leaping to shared-universe ensemble films like BvS, Suicide Squad and Justice League. They're improving their approach, because the consumers didn't take their poorly-made films lying down. They spoke out, and made their disdain visible.

Voicing objection and criticism isn't a loop of negativity, it's called having a standard and being unwilling to compromise it for bad films and poor business decisions. If that's your definition of hate, then prepare to see plenty of hate from me in the future.

Because I will not sit idly by while my favorite franchise goes into ruin.

 

This is the first I've heard about this phenomenon. There's an entire thread dedicated to "has your opinion changed." It seemed like maybe people liked it more over time, but it doesn't appear to be a trend among people in this forum one way or the other. There's a few people who have changed the minds one way or the other, but nothing I'd label phenomenon. Outside of the internet I only know a couple of people who didn't like the film (I only mention this useless anecdote since you mentioned your friends). I don't know anyone who changed their minds. Most people I know who love Star Wars watched it, liked it, and moved on to the next thing.

 

A bit of imprecise wording on my part---I wasn't suggesting that the phenomenon was people watching the film, liking it, and then turning on it in the coming months. That only really applies to the circle of friends I have in real life, and even that was something happened in a quick few span of days, not months later. The phenomenon I was referring to was the unique nature of the backlash surrounding this film: something unique to it, that wasn't really present for TFA, Rogue One, or Solo. The fact that it's a topic still being discussed by media outlets and forums on the net 7 months after release is a testament to that.

The fanbase wasn't really divided over those films. No one was raising money to remake those films. You didn't have an entire genre of YouTube dedicated to dissecting and criticizing both of those films on the scale of TLJ. Regardless of how big this backlash is, it wasn't present in this magnitude on prior films, or on Solo (partially because barely anyone saw the latter). As far as the Disney Era of Star Wars films go, it is an unprecedented wave of reception.

 

Good post! I completely agree that Star Wars is fantasy, it is an epic Space Opera. It has a 50s sensibility, even the hammy script and Lucas' weakness at directing the actors gives it that genuine 50s vibe. The Prequels with their cgi are still very 50s in sensibility. Dex's Dinner is so 50s futurists to me. Imaginatively it has got affinities with Rider Haggard, EE DOC Smith, A E Van Vogt, Edgar Rice Burroughs, novels of far of adventures, spanning galaxies, lost/hidden cities, full of romance and day dream. The Disney Star Wars lacks that vibe and for me the imaginative vitality.

I am a huge Lord of the Rings fan and love the movies, but the Lord of the Rings is first off a book and while the movies are fantastic for costume, setting, visuals some of the heightening of the drama Jackson did cheapens the books. The books are the thing. Star Wars doesn't have that problem the movies are the thing, it was conceived first as a movie. The Star movies in a way exceed the Lord of the Rings movies in the imagination of their creator.

 

Do you even read the arguments presented here and in other forums?

Uh, yes... several people have made that claims, both in this forum and other media. Seriously, pay better attention.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 8, 2018, Original Post Date: Jul 8, 2018 ---

The Oscars are more about political maneuverings, wheeling and dealing, and whose "turn" it is to win than it is about actually rewarding the best film of the year. Sometimes they stumble into making the right decision - but not always.

If you show me a "greatest movies of all time list" then I'll show you a list which has Star Wars and/or The Empire Strikes back at or near the top, alongside other such classics as The Godfather Part 1 and 2, Citizen Kane, Casablanca, Gone With The Wind or The Wizard of Oz.

I love The Lord of the Rings movie trilogy and while the 3rd installment won quite a few Oscars, you just don't see those movies quite as high on the "all time greatest ever" movies lists.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 8, 2018 ---

Do you really not see how employees (and yes that includes freelance contributors) insulting the customers base is bad for business?

Really?? Really..?!?!

ha ha.... "simply doing their jobs"... I wish that was all they were doing....

 

Because it's unprofessional.

The customer is always right. Fighting those who give their money to see your things is totally stupid.

 

I don't agree with her take, but it's simply an opinion. It's not "appalling" and it wasn't fighting anyone. I can guarantee in this climate if someone who works for Disney says something truly inflammatory they'll be fired.

 

Man you can write! It'd take me weeks to write that much content, but it was a good read, all good points to me. Star Wars while Lucas was at the helm had a number of different parts: OT, PT, Clone Wars (two lots) and there were the books and Comics. But while each of these parts were connected they were also substantially different and in interesting ways. If the OT was Alice in Wonderland the PT was through the looking Glass or even Sylvie and Bruno. I actually liked the PT when it came out and over time it has only grown on me. I like that tension of tying in with the OT but doing something very different.

What they did to Luke was bizarre, it is telling that Mark Hamill had to think of the character as Jake Skywalker to play him. TLJ shows there was not proper creative oversight. The Director can't just use what little he knows and make the rest up, it has to resonate and extend what went before, but this was dissonance.

I don't think Rebels is as rich as the Clone Wars, but when watching it you can tell it is done by people who know what they are doing, who know Star Wars, when I watch it I feel like I'm discovering what happened, it doesn't fight with what I had previous learned, yet for all that it is more imaginative and inventive than live action movies.

MCU to me is not in the same league as Lucas Star Wars, but they're a better creation than Disney Star Wars, the MCU films build on one another, the film sequences work together. They manage to draw on the strengths of individual film makers but they don't undermine one another. The new Star Wars films are created or overseen by people who are not steeped in the lore.

I had a vaguely warm glow walking out of The Force Awakens from having seen Han and Leia again and how they'd aged with me, but as soon as I started thinking about the movie I got more and more disappointed. You become a Jedi through training with a Jedi Master, that's essential, even Anakin whose father was the Force could only pod race before Qui Gon arrived and even then he had never won a race. The defeat of the Empire in the OT was no real defeat at all as the First order has replaced them and the main reason for this seems to be that JJ Abrams wanted to remake a New Hope.

I just don't think enough thought was put into it. They needed someone overseeing the process who was steeped in Star wars lore. Abrams should have been given guidelines or even the story, I don't know what Lucas vision for the Sequel Trilogy was but ignoring it should have been ignored only after serious consideration and a better alternative, I can't see that that has been the case.

 

Yes, and will they ever shut up? It seems like I see something new everyday from someone involved that attacks the fans. Like I said earlier in this thread, stop throwing fuel on the fire and let things die down! Common sense (which appears to be lacking) should tell them that it's time to stop antagonizing the audience and start trying to get things hyped up for Ep. IX.

 

I keep asking for examples and the best I've got in return is something a book author said and some tweets by a free lance writer about her opinion about movie customers. Where are people seeing something "new everyday?" There's a great deal of shadowboxing going on here.

It seems to me to be sensationalized by the faux outrage factory. No one at Lucasfilm is antagonizing fans every day. These are very strange claims being made.

 

Is that what you're saying I'm doing?

 

There are plenty of other examples which you are conveniently ignoring. You have discussed these examples in other posts, so you certainly are aware of them.

The fact that these people can literally do absolutely no wrong in your eyes, despite the fact that they are upsetting a great many people, is baffling. Seriously, it's ok. You can like a movie and admit the people that work for LFL are not behaving in the best way possible.

 

Sorry dude, but I can't be bothered to give you any examples. Go find them yourself. Over on page 213 you basically accused me of not being able to think for myself. I answered you and then you ignored that response and continue to be obstinate about the fact that people don't like this film and the employees of LFL are attacking the fans on a regular basis. Chuck Wendipstick and Ruin Johnson are calling customers man babies, racists, etc simply because they dislike the pile of poo that is known as VIII.

I am not speaking for others, but personally you sit here and criticized me on 214 for being condescending towards you and yet when I pointed out, on that same page, the fact that you were in fact misreading my previous post you failed to respond. Talk about a lack of respect.

Sorry for ranting but seriously, this pisses me off. We can all agree to disagree, but stop treating the people who hate the film like they are idiots and they are the ones who are condescending when your every post is the height of condescension and arrogance.

That's his MO. He just tends to ignore (quite conveniently) examples and posts while at the same time continuing to bash those of us who dislike the film.

@Darth_Nobunaga I've started going back and reading the EU myself. I started with "Dawn of the Jedi" and I'm now about to start Revan. I get my fix for Star Wars from the films I like, as well as the Clone Wars and Rebels, both of which are, in my opinion, fantastic. I know they won't wipe VIII from cannon, but I've done just that in my mind.