THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

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Rey is not emotionally or psychologically staggered and unable to carry out the task of saving others, if that's the point you're trying to make in opposition to physical feats. She's not hindered at all, and goes about the film succeeding in everything else she does.

Again, real flaws have consequence, fake and tacked-on flaws have none. Rey's "flaws" have no consequence.

Also, the destruction of the Spirit Tree didn't hinder Rey either throughout the film, so until it serves an actual setback in the films, this is another invalid point.

 

I was making the point that she failed “to herself”. She was convinced she could. It wasn’t a gamble. And she didn’t.

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But she didn’t, as I explained before.

 

If she failed herself, it hasn't provided any consequential setbacks in the actual film. It hasn't hindered her progress in the film, or her confidence, or her ability to save people, or her willpower to keep fighting, or her growth and strength in her actions.

She failed a small personal goal to save Kylo, and succeeded in saving the Resistance, which was her main goal behind saving Kylo anyway.

And read my post. She saves the Resistance from circumstances she had nothing to do with and didn't facilitate herself, for reasons I've already provided. Your explanation did not deter anything I stated.

 

Maybe this will be addressed in the next film. I feel that their bond was jeopardise by the tragedy regarding Kylo looming over them.

And she cared about Luke. Idolised him. In the end you could say she was Luke’s mentor.

And if you consider Kylo her mentor or rather her closest ”friend” in TLJ, you can understand Rey’s loss by the end of the throne room scene.

 

Except that's not what we're talking about. You made the claim that this was a personal setback to Rey this film. Your exact words were "And about relationships, well, her relationship with her mentor suffers too."

This conversation has nothing to do with what might be in Episode 9, it's about what isn't in Episode 8, that being actual consequential flaws and tangible character failures for Rey. Of which, a disrupted relationship with a mentor, isn't applicable.

 

I never felt these losses were any more significant than those experienced by Rey.

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Scarlet is a very strong character but her lack of progress makes her frustrating. I generally prefer less tribulation and more heart. Rey may no be as layered as Scarlet but her journey through the ST is much more enjoyable... and that has some merit.

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These characteristic will not turn this young man into a woman I promise.

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I have already said that Rey is set back by her naivity and her misguided trust in Kylo in a similar way in which Elizabeth is misguided by Mr whickam, who uses Elizabeth’s already set prejudice against Darcy. In this parallel Luke would be Darcy.

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As I said, Rey has already faced the consequences of rushing to Kylo: she is lost Kylo and her hope to save the resistance. As I said before, this is a personal goal In which she fails. She is a failure to herself... is that not enough of a consequence?

I know that in main stream films there is this obsession with having people “witnessing” important turning points or giving a big reveal... but come on...we all get that Rey set herself a goal and she failed. Is that not good enough?

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And it does suffer because of her naivity, because she decides to open up to and trust Kylo. And When the moment came for Rey to decide between siding with Kylo or with Luke she chose poorly because she was convinced she had some insight Luke didn’t have.

 

What you felt, and what's objectively in the films, are two separate things entirely.

Until Rey's flaws contribute to a consequential setback that either reverses or halts her progress as the heroine or have obstructed her to plot-altering level of emotional turmoil that affects her ability to relate to others or function as an individual, then they haven't formed any kind of tangible loss, regardless of how you may feel about it.

Just because the way Scarlett is written frustrates you doesn't mean that my point isn't valid. The point of Gone With the Wind is for the reader to be frustrated with the decisions Scarlett makes, but to feel for her when her mistakes cause her to suffer. You brought up the point that Rey was someone who fell into the same category as heroines of classical literature, because she's a static character that undergoes several losses, when in fact, she does not. Scarlett is a living counter-example: she has several opportunities to improve, and her personality traits continue to lead her down the wrong path, something that the writer continues to showcase by having her flaws come back to haunt her in very real ways, in ways that never happens to Rey. Rey is almost completely unaffected by her flaws, and succeeds in the majority of her goals without any major or tangible hindrance whatsoever. She fails in her goal to save Kylo, but her motive for saving Kylo was to defend the Resistance, which she ends up doing anyway. That kind of contradiction doesn't occur in Gone With The Wind; Scarlett's mistakes are permanent and consequential, real and scary, because the writer actually knew what she was doing.

And we were never talking about what you prefer, we were talking about where Rey objectively falls short in the writing department. A stance which you have yet to successfully counter with anything outside of misrepresentation of film events and personal preference.

Good, because I never said they would. You were the one making the case that Rey's characteristic of "waiting in loneliness and longing" was some kind of story element culturally-reserved for female characters.

My counter, with the evidence provided, is that it is not. You have yet to counter that point.

Except Elizabeth's manipulation at Wickam's hands has a very real consequence; he's able to take advantage of her leniency to penetrate the family's lines and seduce Lydia Bennett, convincing her to elope and risking the shame and devastation of the family's reputation, which is essentially suicide in the era in which Pride & Prejudice takes place. That's a mistake that leads to a completely devastating consequence, one that Elizabeth rushes to fix with Darcey's aid, and course-correct the events of the story.

Rey's naivety/hubris is not used by Kylo Ren to any effective level for the story, because she resists his advances and ends up saving the Resistance from him at the most desperate hour of the film. The "flaw" in Rey is not used to any effective level, and practically does not exist as far as the flow of the film is concerned.

Comparing the consequences of Elizabeth's failings with Rey is a false equivalency of mountainous proportions. Just because you've artificially assigned similarities from the characters of one work to the characters of another work doesn't mean that the effective writing, consequences, tension and stakes also carry over. Elizabeth fails, and the consequences of that failure have drastic consequences on the plot, so much so that it becomes the dilemma elevates to becoming the thing the entire story hinges on to be fixed.

Rey saves the Resistance in the very next scene after she supposedly "fails" with Kylo. That failure has all the consequential impact of an underwater fart.

"Her hope to save the Resistance"? You mean like she ends up doing in the very next scene we see her in?

Her entire motivation for saving Kylo, according to you, was to use him as an instrument to save her friends from the First Order...which she ends up doing in the very next scene anyway, regardless of Kylo Ren's assistance. Do you see the inherent problem in creating stakes that are easily solved in mere seconds by the character who they supposedly mean the most to? To consider Kylo Ren still being evil by the film's end to be a "personal failure" for Rey is meaningless when the end goal behind that redemption is accomplished regardless.

So, uh, no. It's not good enough, because it didn't play any kind of role in stopping her from accomplishing her goals in the film. That's about as superficial and non-existent as a personal failure can get.

Okay, time to rewind. I mentioned how none of Rey's supposed failings causes any emotional or important relationships with other characters to suffer.
The reason this still very much applies to her and Luke's relationship is because they don't have a deeply-emotional or important relationship. They have nothing. They share nothing. They know each other for a total of 15 minutes of screentime, and have no interactions that would suggest any kind of believable bond or emotional ties between them.

Rey's decision to redeem Kylo Ren does not hinder this relationship, because it barely exists as something important to her in the first place. And if it's not important to her, and has no long-term effects whatsoever in her emotional development or overarching involvement in the plot, it's not a valid example of one of her flaws having any real consequence.

 

I won't stay long, one thing I forgot to mention, was how Joe Rogan talked about Carrie Fisher(RIP) I think his comments were in bad taste. Seems like a smart guy, but i don't know why he would berate her after her recent death... left bad taste in my mouth. Anywho, Holdo's sacrifice to me was remarkable, But I'm not here to debate in the hate thread; films are subjective, to each their own. MIC DROP I'M Audi5000...

 

I have already said how the plot changes due to Rey's decision to go to Kylo: Kylo wouldn't have been able to off Snoke without Rey's "assistance".

I don't think Luke, as you are mentioning him, had any major set back and had a relationship change that was any more pronounced than Rey had.

--- Double Post Merged, Dec 14, 2018, Original Post Date: Dec 14, 2018 ---

I said I enjoy those psychological, emotional, personal (more than static) developments in any character and that I find Rey displays them often, as a great part of her story arc is based in growing up and becoming a self-reliant adult. Gone with the Wind is a competent story and Scarlet is an interesting heroine, but I was talking about what I enjoy most... Rey has not the complexity or depth of Jane Eyre or Elizabeth Bennet, to mention characters I'm more familiar with, but she shares with them principles and motives that drive her story forward. Rey "feels" like one of those heroines. This is of course subjective. My objectivity merely allows me to say that Rey is not one of the most complex and interesting characters in history (at least not yet) but that she is a good character, well realised, engaging, inspiring, to the public, to Luke, to Finn. I hate referring to others members of the public, but the truth is that I am not on my own thinking this about Rey... The character has a resonance, undoubtedly, and I think that its very well crafter emotional underpinning is the reason for it.

 

It's an open thread, so if you want to debate you are always welcome to. I think what is hoped is that you debate such and such issue fans hate instead of a fans rejection of the film. People are allowed to reject a film and not be personally attacked and/or called a non fan ect... In a way, this is where the edgy debates take place, so you might be doing yourself a disservice by not engaging, but only you can answer that. At the same time, you're probably less likely to be shouted down having a controversial opinion. It's a sharing of ideas, and I for one would welcome your take.

As for Leia, I'm not entirely sure Rogan aware she passed as it's not mentioned at all in the video. Even if he is, he's not attacking her personally, he's just saying her performance didn't work for him. I never saw someone's death as being taboo to give a critique on a performance, but to each their own. I don't think he's particularly mean spirited about it either, as all he says is that it doesn't work for him, that it isn't believable that she and Holdo are the leaders of the "Empire" haha. I'm sorry you felt they disrespected her, but I didn't get that sense at all. I also didn't agree with them about Leia as I think she pulled it off quite well. You don't have to be mean to lead.

I have no issue with Holdo working for you, or at least her final act. Many others did have issue with the character on several fronts. I think she would have needed at least 2 movies to go through the arc she goes through in TLJ and give it justice. RJ had this idea and knowing he only had one movie, decided to cram it in there along with everything else. I think there were some creative choices made for her that make her less believable also. I wouldn't have cared seeing her in a cocktail dress for a scene or two, hammering home that she wasn't expecting to be thrust into a leadership/military role, but I think for practical purposes, she should have probably changed into a more functional military garb. I think that was a creative choice that undermined the intended effect of her character while promoting others.

 

But following you argumentation about Rey, Elizabeth's mistake trusting Wickam does not precipitate Lydia's downfall... It is Elizabeth and Lydia's father's negligence, allowing Lydia to join the militia in Brighton, what is conventionally thought the reason for Lydia's demise (although, yes, and this will illustrate my point about Rey, Elizabeth does feel responsible, exactly like Rey feels after her failure with Kylo ('please, don't go this way..." she begs Kylo after the throne room battle). Rey's pain for the resistance ships being shot and her disappointment at Kylo's staying dark are evident in that scene.
And talking about consequences I'll tell you this much: nothing turns out to be disastrous for the Bennets or Elizabeth by the end of Pride and Prejudice because Darcy resolves it all with money and influence. He is the one who pays Wickam's debts and forces him to marry Lydia. He also makes Jane, Elizabeth's sister, and Bingley to reconnect. The Bennets manage to marry off most of their daughters with very wealthy men and pay all of their debts, and Darcy is the one who, in the end, saves the day, and he does it all for Elizabeth and his love for her, after having been quite uptight and uppity for most of the story, at least in Elizabeth's eyes. Luke is, in this sense, the Darcy of TLJ, saving the day, and he does so for his sister Leia, and after Yoda convinces him he needs to inspire hopeful, good people like Rey.

In short, Elizabeth's weight in the bigger story is actually very similar to Rey's. So I disagree with your statement that I'm making a false equivalence. In fact, these characters, in spite of having very different temperaments, follow a very similar trajectory.

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She only saves a few people... It is understood that her goal was to win the war and prevent the people evacuated from the TFA's resistance base (I cannot remember its name). Rey was obviously thinking big: "This is how we win."

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that's because the relationship she nurtures in TLJ is with Kylo... and that ends up being a disaster for her self-belief as a possible heroine and as a person... The person she loses is Kylo rather than Luke. And if she hadn't been so innocent and hadn't paid so much attention to Kylo, she would have eventually had a stronger relationship with Luke.

So yeah, being naive and trusting the wrong guy does have bad consequences for her, personally and in her role in the war.

 

I'm just wondering: did she lose Kylo? I don't think she ever had a chance with him. Just from what I saw, he was never going to return to the light. At least not in that film. I would even say he shouldn't turn to the light in IX. Not to say he is irredeemable, but a few days before he turns Rey over to Snoke he murdered his own father. I would expect it to take more than a few force time conversations with Rey to turn him back to the light.

Luke on the other hand, she definitely had a chance to establish a relationship with. She ruined that chance. So I'd say she lost Luke, or lost her chance to have a student/mentor relationship with him, thanks to her "going straight for the darkness."

 

I agree. She was misguided in thinking Kylo would turn, and we, the audience, suspected that Kylo, although conflicted to the core, would not sway so easily. But Rey did not see this... and she was convinced that there was good in him.

We knew Rey was making a huge mistake, that "this wasn't going to go the way she thought", and that this wasn't going to be “how they won". Rey was setting herself for failure.

 

Now that I agree with. I'm interested in seeing how they deal with all of this in IX. Personally I hope they don't have Kylo "turn" back to the light. And I would be disappointed if it is the typical fairy tale ending. I would love to see them end it on a dark note, but that is just my preference. Hopefully JJ can deliver. I for one am tired of the divisiveness. It would be great if he could somehow hit a homerun.

 

I for one want nothing else but intrigue, intrigue, intrigue I will try to engage with the film in front of me and go with it... I'm sure that it will not be perfect and that I'm going to leave the theatre sad no matter how episode 9 rates as a film, because it will be the end of a story I love and a goodbye, for now, to all these new characters I've grown to like so much.

I don't really care much whether Kylo turns or not in 9. The good thing about him not turning and surviving would be the possibility of getting a film dedicated to him in the future... Who knows.

 

I'm also hoping for a film/set of films about Kylo. Unlike quite a few others, I actually like him. I know I'm probably in the minority on that issue, but I do like the character. So I hope he survives but DOESN'T turn. LOL Same reasons, but I'd rather see the bad guys win. I know, I'm a sick bastard. Heck, in 1983 I cried when Vader died as I was hoping the bad guys would win.

I don't buy the line from Disney/LFL that this is the end of the saga films. I can totally see them doing more around 2027 in time for the 50th anniversary. Of course I could be wrong, but I'm sure they won't be able to resist.

 

Dear @Darth Wardawg and @Kylocity

Imo, Scarlett O'Hara is still the strongest female character ever seen in a movie.
A 1939 movie. 1939...

fiddle dee dee
Then I think about Rey asking someone else to show her her place in her story...
No. I can't. I go crazy if I do. I'll think about it, tomorrow.

 

We aren't talking about setbacks for Kylo, we're talking about setbacks for Rey. Read my post again. I literally said: "Until Rey's flaws contribute to a consequential setback that either reverses or halts her progress as the heroine or have obstructed her to plot-altering level of emotional turmoil that affects her ability to relate to others or function as an individual, then they haven't formed any kind of tangible loss, regardless of how you may feel about it."

Your Kylo example doesn't do a thing to counter that except further my point that everyone seems to encounter setbacks except for Rey.

Well, the only thing we're discussing is objective quality in the writing, not our own personal investment or perceptions.

And Rey is an objectively sparse character who is underwritten to an almost juvenile degree of writing incompetency.

Lydia's eloping with Wickham is something Elizabeth blames herself immensely for, and is emotionally-stricken enough to hoist up as a dilemma she herself has to solve, regardless of her father's role in it. And moreover, unlike Rey, it's not a dilemma easily fixed by Deus Ex Machina powers---it's something she has to do with the aid of Darcy. You claim that in TLJ, Rey's goal when redeeming Kylo is to use his help to save the Resistance from the First Order, but as the movie showcases, she ends up doing that without his help anyway (and before you tirade about how "Rey didn't REALLY save the Resistance", I have a rebuttal to that exact argument in one of the quotations below). That option does not exist for Elizabeth---she doesn't single-handedly solve her own dilemma like Rey does in every scene she's in. She relies on Darcy's money, influence, and willingness to help....in fact, the story makes a special point to make Elizabeth re-evaluate her previous stance on Darcy, an admittance that judging him harshly was a mistake, a mistake she now rectifies by putting trust and faith in him to help save her family's reputation. In other words, to undo a dilemma she partially necessitated with her sister, she must first undo a previous mistake she made in judging Darcy. This is a pivotal moment of the story, and nothing similar to it exists in TLJ, because unlike Elizabeth, Rey doesn't make a mistake she doesn't immediately solve single-handedly five minutes later, or one that's waved away by the plot. The worst consequence she suffers is that instead of saving the Resistance with Kylo, she saves the Resistance herself.

You can attempt to re-contextualize TLJ's events all you like to suit your comparison, but that does not make them even remotely similar in actuality. Pride & Prejudice makes its heroine commit a very in-character mistake, which elevates the stakes and creates a new dilemma that she can't solve her self. TLJ makes its heroine attempt to solve the overarching hazard towards people she cares about by making a mistake, and then proves that mistake flaccid and ineffectual to the plot by solving the dilemma herself in the next scene, unhindered and happily saving people left and right.

The two stories have about as many similarities as War & Peace and The Care Bears. Good try, though.

She only saves a few people because there's only a few people who arrive on Crait when she gets there. And that's not because Rey didn't successfully turn Kylo Ren...it's because the Resistance has spent the entire film chased around the galaxy, with Admiral Holdo casually watching ships get blown to bits from her observatory window, clinging to a plan she never tells anyone. The Resistance is thinned down to less than a hundred people by the time they arrive on Crait because of events Rey had nothing to do with.

And what happens when Rey arrives on Crait? She saves everyone who's left. It isn't Rey's inability to redeem Kylo that reduces the Resistance to a few battered members , that's all down to how the Resistance was being led up until she got there. Trying to tack that onto Rey as some kind of "character-defining failure" on her part is such a blatant display of overreaching.

Moreover, at the end of the film when Rey saves everyone, the film does not show any indication of Rey feeling the crushing weight of her failure to stop the First Order from attacking the fleeing Resistance. It's not highlighted or emphasized as some massive step back for her, or some kind of obstruction to her endless parade of victories. In fact, the film doesn't even go to major lengths to show Rey looking surprised or in shock at how few Resistance members are left. Nothing she says or does on Crait even remotely alludes to the fact that she's in any way failed, or feels any level of personal failure.

You're literally reading things that don't exist anywhere in the film.

The lasting consequences of this "mistake" do not exist. As stated, she's not shown to have been emotionally damaged by her inability to save Kylo, and she ends up saving everyone via dashing flight maneuvers and rock-lifting, performing each action with gleeful whimsy or boundless confidence. When she mentions Luke again, she does not lament the fact that she chose Kylo over him, or that they didn't have the relationship that she foolishly threw away. She merely comforts Leia on the idea that Luke's death wasn't in vain, and leaves it there.

Again, reading things that do not exist in the film, through implication or outright demonstration.

Right on the mark. Scarlett is one of my favorite characters in fiction, and Vivian Leigh is my favorite Hollywood actress in history, even though she was well before my time. For how hard everyone's racing these days to make "strong independent female characters", no one has managed to truly match Scarlett's struggle, growth, or organic personality in any modern form whatsoever.

Scarlett didn't need to ask anyone to "show her her place in the story." Scarlett had to blunder, fall, and rise to the challenge herself. And that's the true mark of a well-written character, and a properly-fleshed out heroine.

 

Not true. Darcy does all of this by himself and insists in keeping it a secret.... Elizabeth only finds out about it because of Lydia’s slip of the tongue.

 

The point still stands. What's is so special about the millennium falcon? People act like only Chewie, Han and Lando are the only ones who is capable of driving it? I'm not arguing if Rey is or was qualified to fly it. People act like the Falcon is a advance ship that only certain people can drive. That cruiser that she originally was going to take look like it be tough to fly as well.