THREAD FOR THOSE WHO HATED THE MOVIE

While I loved SW when it came out and it was my passion as a child, I loved all of them SW, ST, BSG, etc. Most anything SciFi. I thought the new BSG was awesome and had some deep moments. Hated when it went off. Can't forget Buck Rogers in the 25th Century will Gil Gerard and Erin Gray (woohoo). I liked the first season better than the second though.... oh and also 1980 Flash Gordon with Sam Jones. Actually have that DVD.

 

Forgot all about Buck Rogers and Twiki and Wilma and Princess Ardala of the planet Draconia. That brings back some memories. Is it Star Wars level? Not quite, but it's still a good premise/story

 

You know, I saw that those battles were badly done in terms of special effects. IIRC, they didn't have much of a budget for that - in fact, most of the show. But, I liked them anyway. The story surrounding the battles were often so compelling that I was never pulled out of them, and still enjoy them to this day. I also liked how almost all the different races had different designs that often seemed to go with their species (most particularly, I suppose, the Shadow and the Vorlon).

ST remains my favourite over and above SW. The very imaginative stories, the ethical questions, the hard science fiction aspect of some of the tales, makes it - at heart - a thoughtful and also optimistic show. (I mean, just take TNG and classic episodes like "measure of a man", "darmok", and "the inner light" to name just three.) That's one reason why I am so disappointed in Discovery - but that's another discussion. Anyway, don't want to derail the thread.

So, latest installment of the adventures of our hero, Jake. I have to say, I'm enjoying these stories. They are a well-done parody of a parody:

 

This is extremely well done, I enjoyed it immensely

 

i agree on some level that Anakin's story was more fleshed out. we spent more time seeing him as a good person before his fall, whereas we don't see Ben as a good person at all, except for Rey's optimistic approach.

i read something, i think Pablo might have said it, that GL initially had the ST start with the Skywalker scion being a good person, eventually turning evil by the end of episode 7 or 8. JJ and them decided to fast track this and have Ben already be evil at the opening of the trilogy.

since we don't get to see Ben as a good person prior to turning, i can see how Anakin's story may feel more full in comparison.

as for why Ben thought Luke was going to kill him, Luke had a lightsaber turned on and was standing above his nephew, clearly feeling troubled. Ben, being a Force sensitive person, likely felt the conflict within Luke, not to mention the fact that a lightsaber was being held up in a way that can only be construed as threatening. i can see why Ben would immediately go to strike down Luke and get the hell out of there, especially if he realized that Luke was on to him; he had to cheese it before he was caught and held responsible.

 

Short answer - Yes! I do! I WANT Lucasfilm to spoonfed me everything! I do not want to come up with my own ideas and scenarios of how, why, and when things happened.

That being said, I don't have to know EVERY detail of every situation. I don't need to SEE everything that happened. And you are correct that we can see that Kylo/Ben is angry, sad, disillusioned... But we don't know WHY. We know Snoke "found" Kylo/Ben, but we don't know HOW he turned him to the Dark Side. I want a better of understanding of how things got to this point. I've said this before, but I think it gets overlooked - You can tell A LOT of backstory with minimal dialog from a variety of characters. In regards to Kylo/Ben, there are several characters who could've provided little details about his past. (Lor San Tekka's comments to Kylo/Ben in TFA were a great example of how to do this.) Kylo, Snoke, Han, Leia, and Luke all could've provided tidbits of info that painted a clearer picture of what happened with Kylo/Ben. But what we got were broad, sweeping, generic comments for the most part. (Someone described Kylo/Ben's backstory being based more on subtext. And I gave them credit for that. I think that's accurate.) That may be fine for less important characters, but for the leading antagonist in a sequel trilogy who has direct ties to the characters from the original trilogy, I believe we are owned a clearer picture of what the character has gone through.

I appreciate your comments and your time. My comment above is more a matter of clarifying *MY" point of view, as opposed to disagreeing with you. I think it's safe to say that the two of us just have different expectations and motives when watching a SW movie. But I hope my comment resonates with those who approach the films the same mindset I do.

 

Bingo.

I lol'ed (and then still felt sorry for the younglings)

If someone invents a time machine, Spanks' post should be sent back in time to GL. "Dude. This is how these scenes play out right now. You need more to make that scene work."

One solution to that scene is to use the preceding story to plant disillusionment with the Jedi in the audience's mind: maybe show corrupt Jedi, or a scene where Anakin sees a padawan being used and killed. Or his sensitivity to the force causing him constant anguish. The goal there is to create an angle where Anakin's unprecedented force-sensitivity mean his day-to-day existence is so painful that it could be argued that Anakin is 'mercy killing' the younglings.

So by the time the scene rolls around, from Anakin's point of view he is simultaneously indulging his hatred for the Jedi but also 'saving the younglings from the life that awaits them'. That way you continue the theme of him being subject to extreme pressures between light and dark and then you get 'pathos' (hate that word) from him being forced - pun intended - to choose. And there are other details you have to tackle to really get the emotion right - Padme's pregnancy/his imminent fatherhood being the prime one, Padme's love/companionship* being the salve that makes his existence bearable so we legitimately believe his desperation at wanting to save her, etc. - but anyways that's the bare bones of it.

Way to dark for SW, but introducing that Buddhist precept/element of "all life is pain/I'm saving you from a life of pain" is probably the angle to get that moment 'right' without it being so ridiculous.

*and for that to work you also have to not completely screw the pooch regarding their love story

IIRC out of the major media outlets only the WP and CNN gave it accurate reviews.

At this point I'd settle for that as long as they do a competent job. Technically there's not enough story space remaining to fashion a universally satisfying conclusion, but I'd settle for that if they went that route.

But they don't have to use flashbacks. What you can do is make Kylo's plot in IX parallel whatever the backstory was, so you end up with what's happening on screen, but also it's the story of his upbringing.

That second part (layering backstory upon plot) is actually not that hard with good writing. There's a good example of this technique in Russell Crowe's character's storyline in the 3:10 to Yuma remake. The plot is Russell Crowe getting to the prison train on time, but the actual story is Russell Crowe going on a journey with the father he never had, and seeing that surrogate father act honorably in contrast to the parents who left him.

I feel you. We all do.

Again - and I'm never going to get tired of saying this because it's the main failing of the PT and ST: ALL of the Kylo/Anakin characterization issues come from the difficulty in exploring the extremities of power being used for "good" vs. "evil" and from the writers being unable to address that difficulty.

At this point it's just one big mess.

The writers also seem to have no idea that yin/yang is internal first and male/female is the least/only the most extreme of its embodiments (a male can have yin traits and a female yang traits, and not all yin traits are associated with masculine and not all yang traits are associated with feminine). AKA this 'ooh-it's-asian-mystique-kylo vs rey-yin vs yang-light vs dark-we're-so-woke-and-deep' thing is actually something of a nuclear facepalm level of cultural appropriation.

Also, we finally get a female Jedi onscreen and instead of a badass female Jedi we get a female Jedi who's badass in masculine ways. What's next, she's going to beat him again in a lightsaber fight/force contest?

Bolded part makes sense.

Also 'scion' is such a great word when needed.

 

As I stated, it was an "intentionally ridiculous" theory. My point is that even with such a bizarre theory, you can't disprove it because Kylo/Ben's backstory is so vague.

 

i really appreciate your response and your honesty.
yes, we want and expect different things.
you think we're owed a clearer picture.
i think nobody owes us anything and that it's more than clear enough for me with what we've been given.

@NinjaRen used to say he wanted to see Snoke torture Ben for the audience's sake--so they would understand what he's suffered.
i say i don't need to see it to know what he's suffered (and maybe more so i don't want to see it; it's painful enough to imagine it).

i can appreciate that others' want to see more, be spoonfed, have all the juicy details.
but yeah, it's not what i want from Star Wars. too much juice makes for soup! : D

p.s. @NinjaRen: didn't mean to drag you into this. just thought of this exchange we had in the past as a good example. <3

 

So I keep asking myself, what is the conflict going forward (macro and micro). In ESB, Luke suffers leaves his training early, suffers defeat at the hands of Vader, learns a devastating family secret, the Rebels also suffered defeat, Han is captured, Lando is compromised, Leia shows Force Sensitivity etc. There was a lot to be followed upon, a lot to be rectified.

After TLJ, there is no Luke, no Leia, No Holdo or Ackbar, Resistance has effectively been reduced to fugitives (no bases, no capital ships or ships of any kind, no munitions, no comms, nothing but the Falcon). No impediment or challenge was given to Rey to overcome in the next movie. Finn is apparently to join the Resistance (now known as the rebellion) in what capacity we neither know, nor or given any reason to care. Rose will... well... I don't know what Rose will do. Probably become a Rebellion General too (that's what usually happens right? Even in the OT and PT, SW had a disturbing habit of just making characters into Flag Officers with no real justification). Poe is to become the leader, but there is nothing for him to lead nor any plausible pathway forward to there being something to lead that doesn't require a massive time jump and extensive off screen exposition. The First Order lost a Dreadnaught, potentially the Supremacy, and at least 8 SDs in the HyperDrive Attack. Given the size and scale of the GFFA, is the FO even the dominant force anymore? Kylo is the big bad now... what do we have to look forward with him? Anything? Maybe reuniting with KoR? I can't think of anything else that would matter.

What do you all think we have to look forward too in EPIX?

 

I have NO IDEA what we have to look forward to in Ep IX!! Right now, all I can foresee in the next episode is more of our whining, fit throwing, not scary bad guy, Kylo, whining, throwing more fits and not being all that scary. Our wonder girl Rey performing more amazing feats with no training and no mentor to guide her. Not that it matters because she's already perfect and knows everything. Since the resistance/rebellion is down to less than a dozen people, we will probably get a bunch of new characters that I have no attachment to and don't care about. More of the FO, led by goofy Hux, trying to catch the resistance. YAY, how exciting! We'll also get Poe standing around looking cool and Finn saying funny stuff while Rose stares at him in admiration. Oh yeah, they'll probably ruin Chewy and then kill him off like they've done with all of the rest of OT characters. Awesome, I can't wait for December 2019.

 

I mentioned it elsewhere but it feels like they may need 2 movies rather than one, to conclude the post OT story. It just doesn't feel like there's enough time to set up a conflict to resolve and then resolve it all while developing existing characters, and introducing new characters and new worlds.

 

This is the best thing I've ever seen regarding TLJ! I can't believe I watched ALL of Part 1 AND Part 2! Thank you for posting this!!!

 

Yes, I agree. In fact, I had an exchange with someone on here a while back that went something like this:

Them: "OH MY GAWD, Kylo Ren will be redeemed and turn back into Ben Solo and he and Rey will fall in love and live happily ever after while the balance is restored to the galaxy and everyone is happy!"

Me: "OH MY GAWD, there is no way that in 2 1/2 hours they can successfully and convincingly redeem that daddy killing psycho who is now leading the FO enough to make him a viable love interest for any man, woman or alien. Nor can they give the galaxy as a whole and all the characters a happy and complete ending. They would need a six hour move at least."

So yeah, I agree that they pretty much need to make 2 separate movies to conclude this story. JJ has his work cut out for him, that's for sure!

 

Sounds like part 3 is out next week, can’t wait!!

 

The Last Jedi's audience score has now fallen to a new low of 48% on Rotten Tomatoes.
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/star_wars_the_last_jedi/

Also, I find it both amusing and ironic that The Last Jedi gets nominated for four technical Oscar catagories that have nothing to do with storywriting or acting.

 

Wow, 48%? I just looked on this site and that is lower than the ratings of The Phantom Menace and Attack of the Clones, who are at 59% and 57%. TLJ should never get nominated for any Oscar that has to do with screenplay. How much of a joke would that be?

 

Bolded part is called bathos.

Happens kind of once in the OT in ESB when Threepio interrupts the Han/Leia kiss. BUT it happens not just for humor, but for a very specific story reason, which is to create plausible uncertainty in the relationship since right after, we see Leia seize the opportunity to 'run away' from the development. They don't stay in each others' arms.

I wouldn't be surprised if Rian Johnson, Kathleen Kennedy, or anyone from the Star Wars Story Group has never heard of the term before. I'd wager JJ Abrams is at least aware of its existence.

Edit: Not all of the 'marvel/disney humor' is an example of bathos. The lightsaber toss, the Rose taser, Hux' mopping of the floor are clear example of it. I'd argue that the porg eating and poe prank call scene are as well.

 

Here is leaked concept art from Episode IX, featuring General Hux:

 

Third and final part: