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SPECULATION Way to Cure Rey's Mary Sue accusations?

Discussion in 'Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker' started by ReyErso5280, Jan 19, 2018.

  1. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    I understand the concerns too.
    Rey has a solid skill-set and in the obvious physical challenges she faces in the ST (so far) she seems to come away from them reasonably unscathed.

    But the more I watch the ST the more I notice her greatest challenges are just more subtle.
    She faces huge internal struggles and the fact they are often more emotional/mental than physical can foster a spurious impression that she's untouchable.
    Good point. And they share a lot of similarities too.

    Looking back at ANH through a "Mary Sue" lens we can notice that Luke went from moisture farm boy to blocking blaster bolts with a laser sword in very little time and marginal training.

    That Luke was so optimistic and successful in overcoming his challenges in the OT has probably contributed to the difficulties we have in processing his weaknesses and complexity in the ST.
     
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  2. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    I agree and I actually and very drawn to that performance and seeing that internal struggle and also find myself identifying with those emotional threads of feeling alone and so forth.
     
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  3. RockyRoadHux

    RockyRoadHux Ginger General

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    I agree, Rian certainly took inspiration from the heroine’s journey: https://heroinejourneys.com/heroines-journey/.

    The heroine goes on a more inward-focused quest, while the male hero goes on an active quest- like slaying a monster, for example.
     
    #23 RockyRoadHux, Jan 20, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2018
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  4. Big Daddy Dave

    Big Daddy Dave Rebelscum

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    I don't know if they can save her character from Mary Sue-ness this late in the game. She has reached dizzying heights of Sue-ness at this point, and there is only one movie to bring it all together left to make.

    I suppose they could pull a Rocky III and have Rey face a huge failure of her own making, that she has to rise by the end of the movie to overcome. Basically a character arc within an arc. Maybe she is overconfident at the beginning of IX because of how easy things have come for her since she left Jakku, and her overconfidence becomes her undoing; similar to how Rocky was overconfident and soft when he first faced Clubber Lang. Hell, she could get her butt whopped by the Knights Of Ren, lose an arm, maybe even have her connection to the force severed for much of the movie.
     
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  5. dudebrohomie

    dudebrohomie Rebel Official

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    Again, the humor in this film fell flat. When Rey lifted the rocks, all Moses-like, nobody laughed. It was laughable, but nobody laughed. I didn't, but on the inside I was laughing my a$$ off!

    I laughed so hard I spit up. I really did. Like a baby. I spit up like a baby.

    Moses! Hysterical!! And those garment folds! Comedy GOLD!!
     
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  6. Jedi MD

    Jedi MD Jedi Commander

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    The thing that is most laughable is calling Rey a Mary Sue. As pointed out a few times above most of her weaknesses are emotional. Her issues with the Caretakers also would eliminate any Mary Sueness. In TLJ she is still unsure about her place in the world. As the movie ends she still has doubts. She is unsure what the future holds. At the end of the movie Leia is having to encourage her to let her know she has what it takes moving forward.

    I also don’t understand why people still think her power has not been explained. As stated above, the Force has been awakened in her. she has been chosen by the Force. Snoke gives the explanation of someone in the light rising up to equal Kylo’s dark. Snoke thought it would be Luke but it turned out to be Rey. Rey has a lot of power but it is still raw. I don’t think any other explanation is needed. She does not need to be related to anyone to be powerful. That dismissed the whole point of Rey’s character showing that you can be a complete nobody but still ending up being important.
     
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  7. Moral Hazard

    Moral Hazard Force Sensitive

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    She's been getting this important lesson from all sides too; Maz, Ben on Ach-Too, the cave etc.

    The films keep telling us Ben and Rey are naturally strong in The Force.
    They both know it and self-belief doesn't seem to be an issue for them like it was for Luke.

    I guess finding their individual place in the galaxy - a context for this power that is fulfilling and feels right - is where they both struggle.
     
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  8. Dr Jerrone

    Dr Jerrone Rebel Commander

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    No need to respond to the rest of your points as they are mostly opinion and I'm probably not going to change yours which I don't have a problem with.

    But this point is a stretch to me as C-3PO knew more about the MF than Han in ESB. That whole scene is to show that he's not some gear head or mechanic, he's a pilot. Sure he knows a lot about ships but that's not his expertise. Rey is not an expert pilot as can be seen in TFA but she is probably more mechanically inclined. I had no issues with her guessing at something that wasn't guaranteed and being right over Han.
     
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  9. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Green Space Rabbit

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    The easiest way to solve this dilemma? Easy. Watch the movie. Powerful darkness, powerful light. It's not all about bloodlines Literally the entirety of TLJ was about this.
     
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  10. Mitch Pelon

    Mitch Pelon Rebelscum

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    Hate to say it, but nerds are some of the most judgmental people there are these days, and Rey will never be forgiven for not being Jaina Solo, or for being as good as she is at what she does.

    On that note, lets look at her skill set:
    1. Mechanic skills: logical given her profession as a scavver. The Force aiding in such cognitive skills even among the untrained certainly is not unheard of.
    2. Polyglot: really, that's only something we Americans think is that novel. I talk to friends who immigrated from Africa (where there's considerably poorer education) or Japan, and they all speak 3-4, if not 6-7 languages.
    3. Piloting skills: If Anakin could race pods at the age of 9, Rey piloting at her age shouldn't be that strange.
    4. Force Skills: Admittedly, her ability to Force Persuade on the fly is unprecedented, but think about it. She just had Kylo Ren forcibly enter her mind (pun........unintended but accepted). Now up until this point we haven't had any examples of him pulling that stunt with someone Force Sensitive, so perhaps that's just what happens when you try that on someone with the Force: a 2 way street. Also, given that Rey is meant to be the Force's counteraction to Kylo Ren's darkness, a meeting of minds between the two isn't going to go normally. Given that Kylo Ren was in her head, and she being in his, she probably learned by experience what the Force was capable of in regards to a human mind. Therefore, a mind-trick shouldn't be that strange for her to concieve and execute.
    5. Lightsaber skills: I feel like this was explained quite well in TLJ. We saw Rey use her staff up against 2 thugs on Jakku, and this made sense. She's lived there for some time and has figured out a thing or two about self defense with a melee weapon. In TLJ we see her practice with her staff, and then, turn around and apply the exact same technique with her staff as she did with the Lightsaber. Given that Kylo was already injured, it only makes sense that she'd have a fighting chance.

    It's also worth pointing out that when it comes to piloting, using the Force and Using a Lightsaber, she gets it wrong first. Her takeoff on Jakku was horrendous, and they're lucky she didn't destroy the ship. Her first attempt at a Jedi mind trick fell flat. Her duel with Kylo Ren was a desperate struggle and she was on the defensive for most of it.

    This isn't to say her character doesn't need work. TFA did well enough as an introduction, but unfortunately a lot of her character development in TLJ was overshadowed by Luke's problems. That's just what happens, Luke demands our attention because he's Luke-frickin-Skywalker. More of her internal conflicts, her coming to terms with Jedi philosophy (which so far no one has bothered to really teach her) would all go a long way.
     
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  11. General_Tarkin

    General_Tarkin Rebel General

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    Those who want to call her a "Mary Sue" will most likely continue to do so at this point, no matter what happens in ep IX or later.
     
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  12. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    Excellent post. I would also add to this the fact that Rey is a very likable, funny character, with a endearing naivety and a feisty personality. May Sues are not like that. They are usually humorless, boring and intense, a little bit like Rose Tico: Rose fits the trope much better.
     
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  13. Dra---

    Dra--- Rebel General

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    Rey was a psychologically flawed character in TLJ, but the problem is that internal weakness has never really led to any lasting problems for her.

    Her flaw in TLJ was being attracted to a psychopath. This led to making the mistake of trusting Kylo and being captured and thrashed by Snoke. That was good. But then nothing really serious happened to her because Kylo killed Snoke, and then she defeated professional assassins like she's been fighting them her whole life, which was dumb.

    We're also told that she has this internal problem of wanting parents or parental figures. But this didn't keep her on Jakku in TFA or stop her from looking for Luke. It didn't stop her from telling Luke to take a hike or stealing his Jedi texts.

    Rey did make mistakes in TFA that people usually don't mention, but again, she didn't pay any price for these mistakes; if anything she benefited. The first mistake was letting the Rathtars out. This almost got Finn killed, but she saved him. Then the Rathtars help Han and everyone escape the gangsters. Her mistake had an upside.

    And then in TFA she was too weak to defeat Kylo Ren at first and he kidnapped her. But this led to the mind probe where she discovered her own mental powers. She benefits from her mistakes.

    Like almost everything in the ST, it's awful, illogical writing, and it's too late to fix it.

    Even worse, people think the writers who ****** this all up should be given more movies. Because all that matters in art is making a profit.
     
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  14. Kylocity

    Kylocity Rebel Official

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    I honestly cannot see how making use of mistakes and character flaws in order to attain a final positive outcome in a story is bad writing... This is Star Wars, things need to work out for the heroes in the end... or partially work out. We need gaffes, risks and lucky escapes to make things entertaining. Indiana Jones was full of that stuff. It’s exciting and it’s fun. I don’t understand the need of wanting Rey to be less of a shiny participant. It somehow shows, only on occasion I admit, an underlying will to ‘put her in her place’, which is absurd.
     
    #34 Kylocity, Jan 23, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2018
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  15. JediMasterRobert

    JediMasterRobert Rebel Official

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    I believe her life on Jakku, where she was forced from early on to fight for her life and survive, prepared her for these future battles.


    The mind probe is very important, as I see it, as is her Force-link with Ben: both have given her rare exploratory insight into the mind of an enemy.

    It was as if she got the plans to the Death Star and was able to exploit Ben's weakness, one of his foremost being his fear of not being as strong as Darth Vader.

    I think that rare deep insight, even as brief as it seemed to be, prepared her in a unique way. I think she was more prepared, in that sense, rushing off to the First Order (a very risky and ill-advised move) than Luke rushing off to Bespin to save his friends and face Vader.

    Luke had no insight into Vader other than the few words Obi-Wan and Yoda shared about him and the Dark Side.

    Rey and Luke's parallels, in this instance, are quite amazing. Luke learned a difficult truth and got physically injured, while Rey learned some difficult truths (the admission about her parents and her awareness that she, at that moment, could not turn Kylo back to Ben) and got physically roughed up, but nowhere near the extent of Luke's injuries.

    Perhaps there is an important difference between Rey and Luke. While Luke struggled early with his understanding of the Force (saying "I don't believe it" after Yoda raises his X-Wing from the swamp, and Yoda indicating "That is why you fail"), perhaps Rey's overconfidence in herself and perhaps the Force is what moves her beyond where others might have more miserably failed.

    Faith -- belief -- is still a very strong and central theme in the saga. What Snoke and Ben/Kylo believe, what Luke believes, what Rey and the Resistance and Poe and Leia each believe all has major implications for the story and those individual character arcs.

    At the end of The Last Jedi, I'm wondering if Rey's failure to turn Ben is something which will haunt her. This was a major failure for her, as I see it. She failed where Luke succeeded. She took such a terrible chance and barely escaped. She could have cost the Resistance its very survival were it not for Luke.

    Failure, the other strong theme prevalent throughout The Last Jedi, offered another chance to highlight Luke's power and wisdom: he was able, in the end, to take action in an epic and unprecedented manner to help the Resistance survive to effectively become the Rebellion reborn.

    As of Episode IX, I think the Resistance/Rebellion needs Rey to have a chance against Kylo, much less the First Order.

    One potential "weakness" Rey inherits from TLJ is the ancient Jedi texts: they could very well indoctrinate her to repeat the mistakes of the past. And there is where I contend Luke Skywalker must return to clue her into his post-Jedi wisdom and to give her some much-needed personal insight into the Force and perhaps Snoke, Ben, and the First Order.

    Rey must succeed, as the story is currently composed, and that makes the prospect of failure, on any level, rather dangerous to her and to the Resistance/Rebellion.

    Just like Luke, she must learn to trust in the Force, curb her instincts, guard against the Dark Side, and maintain hope, for herself and for others, all while learning from the past, passing on what she has learned, and helping to prepare for a future where the New Jedi can return.

    That only Luke was able to do all that speaks to the immensity of these interrelated challenges. I believe Rey is up to it but may have setbacks along the way.

    It kind of puts the audience in a sort of Palpatine mode, as he said to young Anakin, "We will watch your career with great interest."

    (pwned)
     
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  16. ReyErso5280

    ReyErso5280 Rebel General

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    Oh thank you for this link! Very interesting read
     
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  17. HarryShoulders

    HarryShoulders Rebel General

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    To me the Mary Sue thing isn't really a big enough issue with Rey or the ST for me - she is the heroine. I could have believed she was battle hardened from Jakku, as anyone who comes from the hardluck breaks. Clearly she showed that she was capable with a staff inTFA, and the stories/character should have played to those strengths. Whats the natural progression weapon wise for her here? She should have continued to use her primary weapon in TLJ and possibly beyond, which could have been more easily explained away ("she was proficient with that weapon and so on..."). Especially if she isn't a Skywalker, then they could've skipped Anakin's light saber altogether - unless of course she is a descendant......Or carry both to show she is not totally confident in her own saber skills yet, defaulting to what she knows. That would have at least shown something she could grow from..............Or in the throne room, utilize the guards bladed staffs to showcase what the character has already demonstrated, in conjunction with the saber.

    Again, maybe its more JJ's fault for making her have a staff vs some sort of vibroblade, wooden stick or broom ;).
     
  18. Big Daddy Dave

    Big Daddy Dave Rebelscum

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    I'm just not invested in Rey's character or story anymore. After TFA, I liked her and thought there was a lot of potential. She was very likeable at least, even if everything seemed too easy for her. I could forgive that if they set her up to fail or put her through the ringer in the second act. Make her fail and learn. Get knocked down so she learns how to pick herself up again.

    But that didn't happen, and went COMPLETELY the other way. She obviously NEVER needed Luke, all she needed was the books. She can read those herself and become a jedi master. She didn't need to be taught anything. She just heard of the force and within two days tops she was had swordsmanship down and is well on her way to being a jedi, moving huge rockslides.

    In IX, I think if Luke's force ghost appears, it should be only to torment Ben. He shouldn't appear in any scene with Luke because let's face it, she doesn't NEED his help. She's already surpassed him.

    Kylo Ren is in for the fight of his life in Episode IX. I don't see how he CAN beat her.
     
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  19. SKB

    SKB Force Sensitive

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    There is a very easy way to "cure" the accusations of her "Mary Sue-ness".

    Allow her to be vulnerable, to fail, to be imperfect, for her to have a need of help from other characters, to not to have all knowledge in a certain location or situation, to be physically hurt, to not always be super-positive and morally squeaky-clean. Nobody likes a smart-ass know it all.

    Even Superman has a weakness: Kryptonite.

    Rey has no Kryptonite and no weaknesses, which is why she is a predictable, samey and boring character, even more than Superman. She is like a well-read book or a movie you've watched a hundred times. No surprises and nothing ever changes every time you revisit it.

    How can anyone care about a character that has genuinely no need for anyone to care about her and and weaknesses or worries about her? She is too perfect at everything she does and the most annoying character in Star Wars.
     
    #39 SKB, Feb 3, 2018
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  20. DailyPlunge

    DailyPlunge Coramoor

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    Rey doesn't face challenges?

    - Rey goes to a remote island to be trained by a Jedi Master and he rejects her.
    - The training she does receive tears down the legend she wants to believe in
    - She's haunted by the monster who killed Han Solo
    - In her loneliness the only person capable of empathizing is Kylo
    - She sees that Kylo kills Snoke, but after it's over Kylo doesn't turn
    - Her parents turn out to be no body and she has to deal with it.
    - Faced with joining Kylo and the dark side, the easy path... she chooses to fight

    I get that some people didn't like the film, but this idea that Rey wasn't challenged is nonsense.
     
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