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WHAT ONE ELEMENT WOULD YOU CHANGE OF THE ORIGINALS?

Discussion in 'Original Trilogy' started by CTrent29, Dec 17, 2016.

  1. Messi

    Messi Force Sensitive

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    Twi'leks are cool, it would have been interesting.

    One thing that I found very interesting is the fact that David Lynch was one of the choices to direct ROTJ, if he would accepted to direct it....will the final word of GL had prevailed? I meant: would the ewoks be in the movie?
     
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  2. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    I certainly respect the intention of this thread. It’s opinion based editorializing. There is no wrong answer. It’s based on personal experience, taste, and preference. That’s not what I was responding to in your post. My issue isn’t with your specific partiality for a particular motif and mild disaffection over its absence or how maybe the thematic structure might have been improved with its inclusion. It’s how you arrived there. I find your assessment of the plot to be inaccurate and the conclusions you came to, based on those inaccuracies, erroneous.
    I feel your appraisal of the narrative’s content is unfounded and provably false. The Luke character does have growth, he does make a choice, he does accept his role, and his decisive climactic contribution is entirely in keeping with the presented story. You seem to have made declarative statements of valuation based on personal opinion and not actual criticality. My intention was to present evidence to the contrary, not disparage your perspective.

    I’m not saying a proposed alternate arc for Luke is invalid. I’m not saying the arc we got was pristine and immutable. I’m just saying that there is indeed a pronounced arc for the character and one that works soundly in conjunction with the elements found in the story. Having an opinion is one thing. Misrepresenting the situation in order to validate that opinion, is something else. Make sense? :)
     
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  3. cawatrooper

    cawatrooper Jedi Commander

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    On the subject of Luke's arc, I'd agree with @Jayson that it's really bland in A New Hope.

    But over the entirety of the trilogy, I think his arc is brilliant, if not fully realized.
     
  4. Jayson

    Jayson Rebel Official

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    I absolutely agree that Luke has an arc; I never intended to claim otherwise.
    It is, however, that to me his arc is effectively meaningless and trivial compared to the motifs that are sitting right there and available for use.

    Regardless of the reasons revolving why that arc is as it is, it is the situation that the arc in place, to me, is a very weak arc that does not employ as much for Luke as I would rather see considering the motifs that are available, and the mystically grand stature of the elements surrounding the story.

    Again, I'm not claiming that Luke doesn't have an arc, or that it's an invalid arc.
    It is simply that I find it rather flat and uninteresting by comparison to what could have been with a few tiny tweaks here and there.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2018, Original Post Date: Sep 13, 2018 ---
    Right, absolutely it is fully realized over the trilogy. Lucas definitely made it a focal point to refocus the arc for Luke back on the Arthurian track and refrain the motifs as he had originally intended to do in ANH.

    Cheers,
    Jayson
    --- Double Post Merged, Sep 13, 2018 ---
    To further explain my views, I'll try this approach.

    In story telling, there's the event story and usually we explore that event narrative through following a character who has a character narrative that isn't directly related to the event narrative.
    Luke has a character narrative that is fully employed, but the fully employed character narrative is a superfluous, or top-layer narrative relating to his ideal views and being a whiny kid who grows up a bit along his path to becoming the heroic pilot that he always dreamed of becoming.
    This narrative allows for Luke to reasonably move from point A to point B in the story, and doesn't have any problems in supporting the relationship of Luke to the event narrative.

    What we don't have is a character narrative defined by personal character struggles that aren't directly related to the event narrative.
    Or, rather, we don't have a full narrative.
    We have the beginnings of one, but then it's dropped until the subsequent films where it's picked back up and explored again, but in Act 3 of ANH (and arguably the second half of Act 2), it's effectively put on pause.

    In Act 1 we're presented with an opening for Luke's personal struggle narrative and path for redemption by Luke having his entire family and mentor wiped out and learning of a mystical heritage which he then must take up; one which revolves around balancing one's personal demons/emotions to achieve self-realization and fruition.
    The impression that you get is quite clearly that Vader is a representative personal antagonist icon to Luke's anguishes (not his pining, but his losses and internal strife) and that the Force represents a path to resolution of Luke's inner turmoil.
    Because of these two early positions, there is a field for harvesting of Luke for his personal narrative where he must face his pain and anguish, fail to resolve it, and then succeed at some level to learn from that failure through a success out of lessons learned; revolving around the motifs of the icon of his personal strife and by means of the icons of his path to salvation (the Force via a saber), which logically would lead to a one on one duel between Vader and Luke if you pursued that set up and motif set to the end.

    Instead, this wasn't followed through (as mentioned, for various logistics reasons), and therefore it created a sort of a (as mentioned previously) "tantric" effect of leaving the deeper aspects of Luke's struggle and internal character narrative dangling.

    I just happen to not enjoy that tease, and think that the story could have been wrapped up within ANH without damaging the value of the trilogy set because Luke doesn't have to learn all of his lessons in ANH, but instead only learn one (which he doesn't learn in ANH): you can't just solve your problems by pretending to be the hero that you always wanted to be, but if you try earnestly, you can instead be a hero for others.

    This lends an opening to the trilogy's whole moral tale revolving around Luke; that self-interest doesn't lead to self-liberation as one would think, but instead that thinking of others and being self-willing does.

    This idea wouldn't even get in the way of ESB and Luke being gung-ho there, because if Luke faced Vader in ANH and failed, he would hardly face him, and he would only think that his failure was a lack of training, and still want for revenge as we see him in ESB, and immediately provides motivation for seeking Yoda for training in ESB - under his assumption that he needs to get better, rather than realizing quite yet that the lesson he actually experienced wasn't about his skill level, but his emotional motivation (and would add another layer to Yoda's warning that Luke wasn't ready because he hadn't completed his training, and another layer in Luke ignoring that warning).


    And again, this doesn't say that Luke's arc in ANH is invalid, or that it's not supportive of the film's story.
    It's just an extrapolation out of what fuel was put in Act 1 for a more in-depth Luke narrative that wasn't really used in ANH for various reasons.

    ANH is still among my favorite SW films. :)

    Cheers,
    Jayson
     
    #144 Jayson, Sep 13, 2018
    Last edited: Sep 13, 2018
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  5. Jaxxon

    Jaxxon Force Sensitive

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    Just the second act of RotJ. For me, that's the only real failure of the OT. I have no problem with Ewoks, but the story itself just drags to a near standstill during act II, in my opinion. But the Jabba stuff at the beginning and the entire third act are some of the best Star Wars moments for me.
     
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  6. TheSenate

    TheSenate Rebel Trooper

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    The whole Jabba's Palace arc is very uncomfortable for me to watch, especially with my family. But that's about it.
     
  7. Sparafucile

    Sparafucile Rebel Official

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    When Leia says "I know, somehow, I've always known." in RotJ, I always took it that she knew there was a deeper connection between them. When told they were siblings, she just heard the truth and things suddenly made sense to her. I guess it's why I don't find that scene creepy.

    That kiss in Empire where there's definitely tongue involved lol... yeah, that's a little uncomfortable. But like before, they both feel a connection, and when people feel a connection to someone they've never met, the first assumption likely isn't "She/He must be my sibling!" lol. At the very least, it didn't go further than that.

    What bothers me is that Leia knew about her mom, after the events of the PT that's impossible. I wish he would have either thought about that when doing the PT, maybe have Leia live with mom for the first couple years, or would have had the foresight to realize Vader would have never allowed her to do that and Leia answers something different at that moment, or Luke never asks the question. I don't know why, but that detail drives me bonkers lol.

    I like Endor and the Ewoks. I like that they intended to eat them and hate the special edition for excluding that. Cute can still be fierce and savage. Maybe because I saw RotJ younger, some issues others have don't bother me at all.
     
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  8. Darth Wardawg

    Darth Wardawg Rebel Official

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    LOL yeah the kiss in Empire is a little weird after Return of the Jedi. But, as you note, it didn't go further and yeah I'm letting it go there. LOL

    I think what I would have changed is I wouldn't have made Leia his sister. I would have had the "there is another" left unanswered in ROTJ. I know Lucas wanted to get away from Star Wars, but you NEVER say never, to quote that Bond film. He should have been wise enough to realize he might, one day, want to come back, and that would have been something to answer in the future.

    That would also have gotten rid of the whole "somehow I've always known" crap and the thing about her mother.
     
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  9. Cunir

    Cunir Clone Trooper

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    I wouldn’t have repeated the Death Star again. I think it would have been better if the rebels just damaged it and put it out of action in the original movie, maybe gutting the insides, allowing the rebellion to get away, and then the empire repaired and rebuilt it through the second movie, ready for action again in return of the Jedi.

    But it should still have been the same one. Having a brand-new one just seemed like a repeat. It was like, oh, we went to all that trouble of blowing it up and now they’ve suddenly got a new one?
     
  10. MandoChip

    MandoChip Rebelscum

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    There's quite a lot that I would change in the OT so I can't choose just one thing.
    Just to clarify, I don't particularly hate/dislike many things about the OT, I just think many aspects could be done a lot better, especially with today's technology etc.

    Some stuff I would change/improve: Quicker and much more dynamic lightsaber fights, replace Ewoks with Wookies, Get rid of the second Death Star and replace it with The Emperor's personal megaship/destroyer or whatever, have Anakin look more sophisticated after his mask is removed (he looks a bit like an egg), have Vader use the force more often, give Boba a much more sophisticated and impactful death i.e. have him fight Luke to the death and go out like a badass who doesn't fear Jedi, show Vader cutting and hacking his way through rebel troops during the attack on echo base(Like the hallway scene in R1).

    These are a few things, but there are plenty more.
     
  11. Ricky Spanish

    Ricky Spanish Rebel General

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    Agreed. That's what i'd do if I had godlike powers, which i would need as it would completely change a lot of the film

    But if I could actually edit the films in their current state to my liking using real world technology I'd cut out that hideous Han/Jabba scene awkwardly crammed into ANH's special edition. It serves absolutely no purpose that the Greedo scene hadn't already given us and the difference in jabba's appearance and characterization from ROTJ is beyond jarring. It's the worst change Lucal made imo

    For ESB I'd cut the scene immediately after Leia says well i guess you don't know everything about women, that kiss creeps me out now.

    For ROTJ I'd cut out Vaders noooo while Luke is being zapped. That's easily the second worst change Lucas made.
     
  12. deadmanwalkin009

    deadmanwalkin009 Rebel General

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    To be fair, they wasn't siblings at the time. ROTJ made that scene worse.
     
  13. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    For me, it would be briefly seeing Luke look at Shmi's grave in ANH with a look of wonder, while we all know that he has no idea of the history.
     
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  14. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    There wouldn’t be a reason to not tell him about his grandmother though, right? Seeing the grave would have been cool though.
     
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  15. Trevor

    Trevor Protector of the Jedi
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    Yeah, but what would you tell him?
     
  16. Too Bob Bit

    Too Bob Bit Force Sensitive

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    I sometimes wonder what Lucas' original intent for Luke's mother was going to be - assuming he had any fixed ideas at all.

    What's interesting in ANH I think is that there is never any reference to Luke's mother. No-one, including Luke, ever mentions her. There is not even any hint of curiosity on his part. Yet he asks about his father, and "how did my father die", so it's clear he knows nothing about his father.

    So, did he know about her already?

    Luke clearly knows he's 'adopted', even calling his surrogate parents 'aunt' and 'uncle', which is somewhat unusual if he was raised by them since being a newborn. If the prequels did not exist (and ignoring ROTJ revelations) my assumption would be that Luke actually knew his mother, that he remembers her and that she perhaps died in living memory. That would go some way to explain why he knows he is adopted. Beru and Lars are aunt and uncle to him because that's what they always were to him before his mother died.

    Of course, by the time of ROTJ, Lucas had made certain decisions about Luke's familial connections, and has him reveal to Leia that he has no memories of his mother. But I can't help thinking George had quite a different backstory in mind, if only vaguely, for what happened to Luke's mother.
     
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  17. eeprom

    eeprom Force Sensitive

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    “Shmi, your grandmother, was a slave woman sold and married to Cliegg Lars. She was abducted and killed by Tusken Raiders. Her son, your father, was a navigator on a spice freighter before he too died . . . now go to sleep and have those units in the south range repaired by midday or there'll be hell to pay.” :)
     
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