SPECULATION Why Did Ben Solo Turn to the Dark Side?

And that's a gripe I have against Yoda's words: so if you dip your toes into the Dark, you're toast? Don't think so.

A lot of examples where some characters have reached to the Dark Side but in the end came back to the Light. Ventress, Anakin, etc. Even Ahsoka went dark by the influence of The Son in the Mortis arc - even when it was not a decision she made.

 

hear hear! the whole "touch it and you're sullied forever" is a load of bunk.
and it's a terrible message for children anyway, i might add.

 

Agree. The brighter the light, the darker the shadow.

Alas. Could you imagine a Cantina without Kylo Ren fate theories (or Rey origin ones)?

 

What if it's just that simple?

remember the scene in superman when he first develops his super hearing as a child? it completely overwhelms him emotionally.

What if Ben Solo is so dang powerful that growing up he simply couldn't handle either the power he had, or the emotion that came with it?
suppose he is more powerful than Anakin/Yoda/Sheev etc, and that power manifested really early (perhaps that's what Snoke did? awoke the force in him?) - how would a child deal with something like that?

 

he'd probably be a very fragile, angry, insecure, unstable mess.

just guessing.

 

Would make a lot of sense.

Aww poor Mitaka.

 

I think this is exactly it in terms of his emotion and character - and it was an issue with his grandfather as well:

"He loveth too much" - GL

 

indeed.

and if you take that thought process a tad further with the superman hearing analogy....
what if Rey's weird connection with Ben turns the volume down? giving him some emotional torture downtime?

 

indeed! his attraction may be that he feels her sense of peace and is drawn to that.
even his tapping in to her reflections (the island, taking on Han as a father) could be insight into a kind of self-comfort that has escaped him.

he'll be fine.

and i'm sure the laundry droids don't really mind. : D

 

@Maximus, I like how your idea and @Stormagadon's about control mesh.

I think the idea of Force powers "awakened before their time" is very intriguing. What we know of powerful non-childhood-trained Jedi Force users from the movies seems to be that they sort of start out manifesting Force use in small ways and don't really even seem to realize they're doing it. Anni and his podracing (which started out small, I suppose), Luke bulls-eyeing his womprats, maybe, and perhaps Rey's knack for languages and mechanics. (There's references to this sort of thing in the books too, like in the Ahsoka novel.) But as with Rey, when she is perhaps able to handle it, it bursts out and awakens when she outmaneuvers the TIE fighters in the Falcon (at least, this is when I think it manifests, because soon after this is when Snoke acknowledges the awakening).

We also know the OR Jedi carefully trained children and slowly taught them to use their Force powers by channeling them into skills and disciplines. Was this perhaps at least partially to prevent such premature "outbursts" of power that might have caused untold psychological damage? (Setting aside the question of the damage of taking children from their parents, of course. )

But anyway, I really empathize with Leia as a mother, trying to figure out how to deal with a child like Ben--however his powers manifested. I can't really blame her for sending him to Luke. She probably felt like this was the best possible option for him at that time, whatever state he was in, since her Force knowledge was so limited.

 

I always thought that was what the untrained Leia was always doing without being trained or anything, using anger as power, but not in a dark side way. Think of the Incredible Hulk, the adrenaline and anger used as power. I don't think that is necessarily always a bad thing. Yoda was steeped in his Jedi Code. And I always point to people like Count Dooku as being Sith Lite. He didn't have an evil agenda. He did some bad things though, sure. Palpy-face was evil, and that has become our poster boy for using the darkside.

 

It's still possible that the plot "Luke wants Rey to kill Kylo Ren" is not 100% correct. In 2015 MSW posted spoilers to The Force Awakens where Rey was a Solo and the vision scene was different (Han, Maz, Finn watched the Force vision with Rey). They were right about some scenes and others not, it's hard to know now what they're right about TLJ.

 

Classic star wars though - acknowledging the complexity and tension between owning your own actions yet realising sometimes you can be the subject of others' manipulation toward interests outside of your own. Just like the old nature/nuture debate the two are never inseparable - love it.

I like this analogy. Like drugs, power and control are seductive to the confused force sensitive because they do work - or at least they appear to "solve" problems in the short term. Unfortunately the long term often reveals a different story of tolerance building requiring "more", addiction and corruption.

I agree but the devils advocate in me sees that, from a certain point of view, every Jedi will have their destiny forever dominated by the dark-side if they seek out confrontations with dark-siders.

Part of me thinks that it is a fair and cautious warning for a Jedi master to give an apprentice. It's also one of those vaguey-wisdomy aphorisms that can be loosely interpreted as true - once you see something you cannot "unsee" it. It will be part of you forever although the "wrestling" with it may be a matter of individuals and degrees.

 

Interesting interpretation, if i'm understanding you correctly...

For instance, in Luke's case... Once he goes into the Degobah cave and realizes he has acted in anger and fear, he has "started down the dark path," and it will forever dominate his destiny...because he will always know that part of him exists and he is in danger of falling to it if he is not vigilant. When he looks at his robotic hand, just like his father's, he realizes...the dark may dominate my destiny because it's a part of me, part of my heritage--but I choose again and again not to follow it or give way to it.

Is that kind of what you mean?

 

Exactly - nicely put. It will always be a part of you to some degree. The interpretation may stretch the dialogue a bit but we know what these eastern-philisophical wise master types are like - they often utilise wordplay, riddles, and paradox to have us questioning! It could be seen to be in character with Yoda.

It's the "dominate" call that seems the best argument against this more loose interpretation of his quote.But there's always the possibility Yoda was plain wrong, just emphasising the direness of the situation, or trying to play it safe. For all we know an absolutist interpretation could have been the case for his 900+ years of experience - even up until now all cases of dark-sider dabblers and reformed "baddies" have had their destiny's dominated to a certain extent by the dark.

--- Double Post Merged, Mar 4, 2017, Original Post Date: Mar 4, 2017 ---

As to this turning business, this thread has introduced some interesting possibilities for Ben's turning I hadn't considered:

Possible Carrot's (incentives to turn)
Strength
Control
Belonging
Heritage

Possible Stick's (avoidance/escaping)
Family troubles e.g. legacy burdens, breaches of trust/deception
Confusion
Rebellious nature

Perhaps the carrots and sticks remain the same but the "sides" have switched?

(edited for clarity!)

 

@Moral Hazard

I think this is an issue that a lot of fans get confused about. It's the same with bringing balance. People see this as an eradication of evil when it is in fact simply a rebalancing of good and evil. Likewise with the Jedi they cannot eradicate the capacity for evil that is within themselves but they learn how to let go of it on a constant basis. It's not like they train to let go on a 2 week training camp and then are never angry again! It's on going.

It's all about balance. That isn't to say it's ok for a Jedi to be angry and act on that anger from time to time. What it means is that sometimes a little bit of anger (righteous anger) over say an act of injustice would be necessary. That is to say complete passivity is in itself evil and one needs to feel something that could be construed as "dark" to stir the senses so to speak. But being a Jedi then means not to act out of that anger but rather love.

So for example, you a man getting beaten up by a bad guy. In the moment you feel a degree of anger - "that's wrong!". And this spurs you into action. But then this must be balanced properly and so you don't then try to sort the situation out through anger but love - you wanted the beating to stop so the victim can be saved and you want the bad guy to stop for his own spirit as much as anything else. That's what it means to be a Jedi - you should love everything and everyone because you are part of that whole rather than separate to it. The Sith of course see something that makes them angry and act out of that anger. They even try and make themselves angrier and more hateful. What's interesting is that this shows how a Sith's path to greed and hate can begin from a natural and "good" place.

This all then feeds into living a life of non-attachment which isn't about separation but connection. All non attachment is, is a discipline by which to live by on a daily basis. It's the process by which a Jedi acknowledges their dark side but then let's go of it. That for me is at the heart of what a Jedi is. It's the commitment to never using the dark side. It's what separates them from everyone else. This was why the PT Jedi, rightly or wrongly, forbid marriage. Not because that was directly attachment forming but because it makes it much harder to let go. However, I think a realisation here could be that if you do get married and learn to let go then you will be far more proficient in combatting the dark side. It's almost as if the PT Jedi were trying to make the light side the "quick and easy path".

And so getting back to Kylo, I think his great problem as a child was in not realising that it is ok to have a Dark Side. To have these emotions that you have to wrestle with. For him it seems it had to go one way or another. Now he wants to utterly eradicate the light (which he simply won't achieve and thus will remain conflicted). He needs someone to show him how it's natural to feel the anger he does (stronger the light, greater the shadow) but that he doesn't have to act on it and that acting on it will bring only destruction. Clearly Rey is this person - not just because she will be the hero of the ST but because she has suffered in her life yet has remained hopeful and balanced.

What will be interesting though is when Rey moves towards the dark as she discovers the dark side within her. This will then give her an insight into Kylo's state of mind and if she can get through it (maybe with Kylo's help) then she will be even more adept at helping Kylo balance himself.

 

I'm not quite sure what comments you're responding too here (I do waffle on) as I agree with most of your comments/theory in your post.

I'm not sure if one could ever let go of their “capacity for evil”? (I figure you're speaking about reducing risks.)

I'm not sure exactly where the Jedi stand on anger but like you I certainly don't see anger itself as “evil”. I just think that one should be cautious and aware of the dangers ones anger may lead to and take some steps to mitigate them.

I completely agree with this ↑.

Yeah, the whole marriage issue has zero cinematic or real-world interest for me personally. The older I get the less I see a place for specific life-long oaths when it comes to love and the less I understand where the desire to get authority figures involved in a personal relationship comes from! Each to their own of course, but I like the Jedi emphasis on avoiding possession and attachment and don't see it conflicting with life-long monogamous relationships. Sounds like true love to me!

Who are you and how did you get @mastershaitans login credentials!! Just kidding, I would be hesitant to have suggested this myself let alone hear it suggested from you! For someone with such strong opinions and clarity of head-canon your open-mindedness can still surprise me!

And maybe Luke has a part to play in finishing/correcting what he started? (training) Of course there may be too much resentment from Kylo to even try and go there.

Maybe, but perhaps, by the grace of Luke's mentoring, she could avoid having to move toward the dark. Isn't this the path of a Jedi or will Rian and Luke take things in a different direction in this new-GFFA-order?

With that latest post I was mulling over the idea that the reasons Ben may have turned his back on the light could prove to be the same reasons why he may choose to pursue it again. He may have succumbed to a twisted ideology for legitimate reasons only to realise (be shown) he's got things wrong. Or maybe, like you seem to be suggesting Kylo and Rey transcend the classic dichotomy completely?

 

Yes, "dominate" is the problem word, since it seems that generally we should be "mindful" of our darkness, not constantly worried it will inundate us unless we're a Skywalker. The whole point is that everyone has this Shadow nature they must beware of, so everyone must have taken a step down the dark path at least once or twice--and yet not everyone is a dark side user. Perhaps Yoda's words are, in fact, Skywalker-specific, perhaps spoken out of experience/fear? Which leads me to my next point....

Yoda, wrong? If I'd only seen the OT, I'd have argued with you, but alas, I know all about the PT and TCW... He is also not above manipulation--in that eastern-philosopher wise master type way--so perhaps he is just using exaggeration to sway Luke. Or at least to give him an extreme to wrestle with in order to lead him to find his own balance.

 

+10000

Please bring this one a bottle of the finest Corellian whiskey.