SPECULATION Why Did Ben Solo Turn to the Dark Side?

100% correct.

 

But if you're tired of dark, why do you want Ben/Ren to stay there? What makes you think Rey is going to go dark? I mean, sure, she'll be tempted by the dark, but that's part of finding your destiny, right? Part of conflict? Don't we need conflict for a story?

 

He must be redeemed, and honestly I think he is already on the road there. He never completely went dark side, sure he killed his father, and the ally of his mother/uncle who seemed to know him, and the order on the villagers. If he wasn't the one to give that order, someone else would. I got the feeling he wasn't gungho about the Hosian Prime thing either, standing in the window, clutching his fists. I don't understand why anyone would want him not redeemed frankly. I mean what is wrong with you? Why do you think his father sacrificed himself. "Will you help me?" "Yes, anything?" Did he think he was going to die? Maybe, maybe not, but it didn't seem to bring him closer to the dark side at all. He seemed to forgive him for killing him, and they tried hard to convey that in both the movie and the novelizations, etc. He seemed still even more conflicted and angry. The awkward weird conversation which was the first thing I didn't like how it was worded when I first saw TFA about them talking about their kid, maybe it was on purpose, with lots of vagueness and meanings we don't understand. The more I saw it the more I thought maybe it was supposed to be that way. I don't think it's going to be as cut and dry as you all think it will be. It will also be a failure on Luke, if you think about it, and we really have a lot of blank holes. Maybe the question of if he will be redeemed isn't the one we really should be asking at all. He is pulled in all directions, he is not a Sith. If it's cut and dry it's just the same old thing right? I don't think it will be a knock over the night thing like with Vader when he came to that conclusion saving his son at the end, but a gradual back and forth thing. Heck, it's canon Rey has a dark side as well. Plus, we got to get off this "I don't want this, or I don't want that" it makes it look like if it doesn't go your way you will just give up on it. Maybe you won't maybe you will be surprised and like it, not everyone is going to like how it goes, I didn't liked everything that has happened so far, but we haven't been revealed everything yet. Like I have said before, put your panties in the freezer and chill people and hope for a good story. It's not a good story if it's predictable. This stubborness and lack of dialogue of answering with things as "No Thanks" when someone puts up an idea is unoriginal and worthless. Say something. I respect the opinion of someone saying "They don't want him redeemed" for whatever reason and backs it up with why they believe what they do, and Rey doesn't have to go full on dark either, but she has grazed it a bit, but then so did Luke if you think about it., but I don't think it's going to go that way, and it may go that way, but I am sure however it goes it will turn out satisfying in the end.

 

First of all we might want to remember the wise words of old Obi-Wan Kenobi:

"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

Our perspectives depend a great deal on our personality, our background, our pursuits, our character.

I can understand a perspective on "no redemption for Kylo Ren" because after watching TFA I was completely heartbroken by the perspective of Han being killed by such a monster who turned out to be his son. I hated Kylo for ruining the iconic love-story of Star Wars. But perspectives do change. And so far the canon has offered us several different perspectives on the motivations behind the actions of both heroes and villains: it has also given us a more realistic perspective on all the characters, having them not either Dark or Light, either good or evil. All hail the Light, the Dark, and the Gray.

I guess we will learn more about the background of these new characters as long as we are rolling with the rest of the ST. Right now the new material and information is being handed drop by drop, so we might want to be cautious in our judgements.

 

sorry, @DarthWalker, but like @Choose Light and @RockyRoadHux i'm finding this a puzzling contradiction.
like you, i strongly dislike the "dark" aesthetic. oooh, it's so gritty and edgy or whatever.
so why root for the villain to be worse and worse when we're working within a framework in which he can actually get better?

 

This x1000%

He is already on the road to it I completely agree; Ben is probably more conflicted than Anakin was in Episode III before this fall, and I think seeing the consequences of this actions will ultimately eat ast his soul before this turn back. In the conversation with his father you could see the pain in his eyes, the struggle in his voice and the fear in his heart; he didn't want to kill his father (I believe that) but his fear of what would happen to him if he didn't and the temptation to please his new master pushed him into an abyss. Ben is complex and he thinks what he is doing is right, but did you see his face after Rey bested him on Starkiller, that was a face on a scared man, scared of what he has become and done. There's more good in him... and I know Rey, Luke and his mother will find it again

 

I completely disagree and there is no way why Kylo is forced to be redeemed. Many people only want him to be redeemed because he is the son of Han/Leia. This is a weak reason in my opinion. He showed no sympathetic traits, did unforgiveable crimes and showed no mercy towards anyone. I don't see why anyone should really care for him. Nothing points into the direction that he has to be redeemed.

 

I don't see it a contradiction at all. I do not want Rey to be the one to go dark, nor form a romantic interest in the bad guy, nor be a Solo. I am not interested in a story with the bad guy, that being Kylo, to come back to the light for 2 reasons; that being we already saw that played out in Anakin/Darth Vader, and because he killed Han Solo, his father. I think he needs to stay our bad guy, and show the Rey what happens when one goes down that path. When I say I don't want it darker, I mainly mean making Rey go dark, or even gray. Have a the main character remain grounded in the side of good and light. It's like the modern day romantic movie where the boy or girl sleep with every other character in the movie before deciding they really love each other, rather than a more old fashioned love story of remaining somewhat pure for each other. But I know those ideals aren't really popular anymore.

 

but if Luke and Rey and Leia are able to bring him back, would that really be so objectionable?
because of the Han thing? even though it's what Han would have wanted?

 

The way I see it, killing Han will prove to be a vital plot point in Kylo's redemption arc. As JJ said, the moment he'd done it he regretted it and that regret will resurface once he's in the position to kill either Rey or Luke. He won't be able to finish the job the second time.

 

Darth Vader was redeemed. Debate over.

 

Forget who his parents are, you are a Luke fan as well, wouldn't it be a bad reflection on him if whatever he is doing is a result of a failure of Luke? Why can't you understand that it's ok to have an opinion different than yours? Who fights the light. Yoda said that the path to the darkness is easy. Kylo Ren is having a hard time with the dark. Why is he having a hard time of it. Did you read the Aftermath books? He's sensed as a ball of light. Rey at times it is both pity and anger towards him. No one says you have to love the guy. It's a whole conflict of things. No one is trying to get you to like him. You seem to think that, but that's not what anyone is saying. I don't want Rey to fail as a character either. It's not a we are team Kylo Ren and down with Rey or Luke or anything team. It's not freaking politics. It's a fairy tale, a story, it's not some example for young girls, young boys, drug addicts, serial killers or whatever. Luke never did what Obi-Wan or Yoda did, he went to save his friends, which was foolish, and he turned Darth Vader which ended up being the right thing to do.

 

I completely agree about Han. It was an act of loving sacrifice that I believe to be crucial factor going forward.

I believe it will be a combination of Han's last loving gesture, (hopefully) Leia's continued belief and sensing that there is still Light in him and possibly sympathy from Rey when she learns from Luke about the circumstances of his fall. Of course, it will be Ben who will have to save himself, but he will be brought back by how he feels about his family as well. I think it is very important that leia doesn't give up. She didn't manage to reconcile with her father being Vader and truly accepting/believing in his redemption, (I believe that this was set up quite deliberately in Bloodline), but by believing that her own son can be saved will have a dual result. She will be also able to reconcile and accept Vader's redemption as well. My gut feeling is that this is what's set up...

 

I hope Leia will get her own mini redemption for these errors when Ben is redeemed--just as Han got his mini redemption in TFA.

 

in a way that seems to be what the ST is leaning toward: all of our OT heroes are at this crossroad with this enormous gaping failure staring them in the face.
Rey is the glue that's going to put Humpty back together again and give the Skywalker twins their final redeeming victory over the Dark.

 

It could be interesting if Ben was "pushed" to the dark side as much or more than he was "seduced". I know a lot of fans don't want to see complex protagonists with failings and mistakes that adversely affect others so it could be a brave move for TPTB to pursue this angle further.

Yeah, it makes sense to be disgusted by abuse and murder but I think there's consensus there regardless of peoples speculation about future narrative direction.

I'm not really surprised that many people want to see Ren punished and suffering for his obscene actions - most of us live in societies with a ruling apparatus that utilises a retributive justice system as opposed to a transformative justice system.

In these societies it's easy to view people as "good" or "evil" instead of their actions and many of us are conditioned to this thinking from childhood by different institutions. I see this view essentially as a revenge mentality - "we need to hurt people who do bad things to show that hurting people is bad."

Personally I tend to see people like Kylo as suffering from debilitating psychological illnesses and/or unfortunate circumstances/role-models. If they can be healed or transformed I would see this as a much more productive approach. It seems to be a universal law that what we do to others we do to ourselves...and the cycles of suffering continue.

 

i mentioned this in the other thread, but it feels like there is a deliberate effort to demonstrate this precise principal throughout the ST specifically in Aftermath and more indirectly in TFA. our plucky new heroes are both children of war, raised under terrible circumstances, Ben is a blighted prince, and we come to discover that this is something that is happening all over the galaxy--and that the FO is basically built on this misery.

 

But agree, it is interesting that all of our new heroes and villains are children of war. Rey, Finn, Kylo, Hux, even Phasma might have her own backstory.

Even Poe had some tragedy in a way - lost his mother at 7 years old.

 

I read that unversal law heavily into the OT and PT as well. Thanks for tying it back to the movies for me - it was supposed to be the point of my ramble but I lost myself carrying on about the real-world tangents! (I gotta curb some of that...)

 

"Want him to be redeemed". He's not real. He's not our friend. We "think it likely he will be redeemed based on what is presented".

You might say that they're all grandchildren of Darth Vader, from a certain point of view...