Will Rey turn to the dark side?

In Kendo you can't really avoid it.

That isn't the kind of perfection that the trope identifies.

Thats the problem - Rey is shown as so good and so strong that she defeats Kylo when she really shouldn't. Kylo already hurt her, multiple times. He is fighter because he wants the lightsaber she has. He doesn't let her win, he is not able to beat her.

How could he disarm her? -

And Rey was attacking himw hen he froze her before.

Seriously - I've shown you had Kylo hurt right before the fight (is her well being REALLY that important?), I've give you several other options besides killing her (injury, disarm, using the force - freeze, pull, pull her lightsaber back to him, throw things at her etc...) He does not HAVE to engage in a fight with her, and its obvious from the scene AND the script that Rey over power's him/gets the better of him multiple times during the fight.

 

Not sure how that works, but let's stay casual acquaintances, in that case.

Agreed. It's pretty clear by his lines that he intended to have her turned and trained. As far as we know, he could've been testing her much like Luke v Vader in ESB.

 

I don't make him THAT smart. But I think he realizes she's strong in the Force and would be a better ally.

 

Everyone is so busy comparing it to TFA (still) that they always forget that fight was more Luke/Vader than Vader/Obi-Wan or Obi-Wan/Maul

 

That disarm is of the oponent having hands down not atacking with throws above head?
You seem to thing he still has firm command of the Force in these moments? But also say that him chosing not to use the stasis or force throw or whatever makes her a Mary Sue? I dont follow.
I dont think he can use the force and i dont think he wants to injure her. She wins cuz he holds back.
And what is a mary sue trope then exactly. Shouldnt she be big boobed (blond) babe in high heels, for it?

Only men i respect enought to love can handle me

Kylo doesnt want to turn rey to the dark side i think. If he did he would offer to show her the way of the force...darkside to be exact. He offers to teach her the WAYS of the force. Do you think that wording is unintentional? I would like to think it had meaning.

 

he doesn't have to fight Finn either, but he does. until he gets wounded and irritated and then it's not fun anymore and so he drops Finn like a rock.
he's playing the same game with Rey until it's too late and he actually can't defend himself against her anymore.

 

Well, it's possible. It certainly echoes the larger view of the force implied in the trailer.

 

You asked how could he disarm her when she is holding the lightsaber with both hands - like that. And Thats the point, a trained experienced fighter like him would be able to control someone who doesn't know what they're doing. He'd be able to see her attacks coming with lots of time to react. He'd be able to create opening so she'd attack right where he wanted too. He'd be able to feint and maker her bite, creating opportunites etc... She is too good for him to be able to do that, he is out fighting him, shes driving him back etc... Thas the Mary Sue part - an untrained person wouldn't be able to do that a trained, experienced combatant. BUT they clearly (just watch the rest of the movie) wanted Rey to be great at and succeed at everything so......

You say you think that, but the script of the movie says you're wrong. The scripts says she is over powering him, not that he is letting her. And his actions prior to the fight, and his actions during the fight indicate that he isn't worried about not hurting her (yes, him choosing not to do things that could stop her/end the fight without hurting her tells us that isn't his top priority (getting the lightsaber probably is) therefore him holding back isn't why she won).

No, thats not how the trope goes - most basically, the trope describes characters who are "perfect" who have no flaws, are good at everything right away with no explainition or reason etc...

I think to Kylo the ways of the force = the way he sees/uses the force.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 24, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 24, 2017 ---

He does have to fight Finn, he wants the lightsaber.
FINN
Come get it.
Despite his fear, Finn raises his blade in welcome. Kylo
Ren CHARGES at him - Finn terrified -- Kylo Ren LUNGES but
Finn DEFLECTS Ren's SPARK-SPITTING blade!
Kylo Ren TURNS, ATTACKS, CUTS -- amazingly Finn BLOCKS,
COUNTER-ATTACKS -- clearly IMPRESSES KYLO REN, who only enjoys
this challenge more!
Rey RECOVERS, gets her bearings. Her eyes focus on the two
men fighting, through the trees.
Kylo Ren is obviously hampered by his wound, yet he attacks
with a primal SAVAGERY -- Finn BLOCKS, turning DEFENSIVE
moves into OFFENSIVE ones. And he ACTUALLY GETS A HIT IN!
LUKE'S SABER GRAZING KYLO REN'S ARM! Kylo MOVES BACK --
wounded, but more enraged than weakened. Kylo Ren CHARGES
AGAIN -- their WEAPONS POUND, SPARKS FLY, their blades LOCK,
the men are CLOSE, LIT BY the powerful, CRASHING sabers:
And Kylo Ren PUSHES FINN BACK, attacks with pure ferocity --
Finn is stunned -- unprepared for this fierceness.
Rey sees this -- Kylo Ren unleashes a MERCILESS SERIES OF
BLOWS, pushing Finn further and further back until he loses
balance.

Nothing in there about Kylo taking it easy on Finn, ont he contrary Finn blocks an attack that surprises Kylo. He is enraged and attacking savagely before Finn hurts him. Again, he isn't holding back.

This holding back idea is something fans created that isn't supported by the film.

 

but as you said: why not just freeze Finn or throw him into a tree?
or disarm him immediately (skilled swordsman against an untrained man) if he wants it so bad?
instead he's goofing off playing cat and mouse until Finn strikes him.
then it's all business and Finn is eating snow.
the script even says so: he's excited by the challenge! he wants to make a fight of it.

he's powerful enough not to have to mess with either of these yoyos, but he's distraught and he's wounded and he's arrogant even so.
and we also have a phenomenal lot of evidence to say that he just generally makes bad choices, period.

it's not so amazing Rey beats him all things considered.

 

Those are non-violent, don't harm him solutions. Clearly he wants to hurt Finn. And yes, Finn is way better with the lightsaber when he should be as well, but at least Kylo does win.

Bad choices don't = forgetting how to fight. He still beats Finn becuase he is the superior combatant. But Rey is able to go on the offensive so well that Kylo can't deal with it - thats were the Mary Sue stuff comes up, Rey is ...... magically gifted the ability to fight with a lightsaber. She doesn't earn it, she doesn't train for it, we don't see her lose and then come back to try again/over come etc.... She just magically is great at it. But thats par for the course for her in this movie - what isn't she good at? What does she ever need help with? Who never needs to teach her anything? When is she ever wrong?

And yes it is pretty amazing that someone who never touched a lightsaber before was able to fight off and defeat someone with training and experience who was trying to kill or injure her.

 

They intended to show Rey is more powerful than Kylo Ren. Snoke is surprised by it. How is she so strong? 2 Force parents? Born of the Force like Anakin? Who knows?

OB1 showed that a weaker force sensitive can still win a fight against a more "force" powerful opponent. What would happen if Anakin had just attempted to Force choke OB1 on Mustafar?

Rey knows how to fight and she resisted Kylo without training. Rey Skypatine!

 

But shouldn't this be centered on the force? If that was the point/goal, wouldn't just showing Rey pushing Kylo out of her mind and seeing his be that? Jedi still have to train with their lightsabers, the force doesn't fight for them. It makes no sense that she'd just know how to do that.

 

let's take a look at Kylo Ren's day:

• he makes the stupid choice of catching the girl, instead of destroying the droid as he was ordered.
• he then lets the girl get inside his head and completely rattle him.
• Hux calls him out for being an idiot in front of Snoke (i'm sure he's feeling great at this point).
• then, having already underestimated the girl, she escapes from him.
• now his father has arrived and he has a confrontation with him that derails him further and results in him killing said father.
• then his father's BFF shoots him with a crossbow.

by the time he confronts Finn and Rey in the snow, he's physically and psychologically wrecked.
he's so wrecked, in fact, he's pounding on himself to get up some adrenaline or Dark side energy to keep pushing forward.

then:

• Finn flashes his grandfather's saber at him.
• Finn actually manages to wound him.
  
• Rey reveals that she can out-whammy him by calling the saber to her.

"bad choices" isn't about forgetting how to fight. it's about fighting at all in his condition at this point.
he's distracted by all the events leading up to this, he's distracted by his physical and emotional pain, he's distracted by the lightsaber, and he's distracted by wanting to catch/play with/possess Rey.
all these things competing for his attention is too much and he melts down once Rey comes back at him.

this is not a highly trained warrior. it's a hot mess with a fritzy saber crying over his father and bleeding out in the snow.

could she have bested him in better form? of course not.
but like this?
no: to me, it's not the least bit surprising Rey defeats him.

 

First time we saw Rey with other people she was fighting...

 

Their fight is not constant throughout the course of it. He has the upperhand at the beginning. She doesnt. Later some things change. Clearly there is a reason for it. More than one, I'd say. I agree with all @FN-3263827 said about his emmotional state in the post Han-killing moments. And physical wound too...but i really think that Rey overpovers him because he holds back and hesitates. That does not make her a Mary Sue. It's just her 'do or die' stance paying off. Against an emmotionally f*cked up oponent. Or would you say, as a clearly experienced fighter, that emotional state of a combantant during a fight matters not? I disagree. Sure there are people who can train themselves to be like robots, emmotions free, cuz they think it a weakness....but i dont think thats a natural human state.
Rey is not perfect in everything. She has so many flaws and fails a lot. But she adapts and learns from it then apply it to her advantage in another go around. Watch the movie.

If you don't see it then nothing I can do about it. I think we just interpret things on screen differently. You say she overpowers him cuz she is a Mary Sue, I say its cuz he lets her cuz he is taken aback by her relentlessness that demands the only way to stop her is to take her down...which he cant...cuz he wants more than that lightsaber....IMO

Seriously? You are saying Rey has no flaws?
How bout...naive and childish, narrowminded, unable to deal with deep emmotions, running away from her force sensitivity, feeling insecure than masking her insecurities with agression, not having faith in herself....etc etc...none of the charachters in tfa are perfect. Kylo ain't a perfect villain and sure as hell rey aint a perfect hero. Nor she gets things handed to her. She fights for them. I wonder would you think the same if she was a man. I sense some anti feminist emmotions if im to judge by your kathleen comment. (I am not offended by that, btw, i am no feminist. But i think men presuming kathleen keneddy is a femnazi is a wrong presumption)

I guess time will tell who is right on this one. It will all depend on what happens next to her charachter. I personally would love to see Kylo Ren kicking her ass in a duel. I think she should be humbled a bit. And if they do that then we'll know for sure...that Rey aint Mary Sue and that she aint a fem nazi symbol.

I heard that line before. In OT, I think. From a former Jedi knight, no less.
(You must learn the ways of the Force, if you're to come with me to Alderaan)

 

I think Rey's fighting experience by itself might make the scenario iffy, but her fighting experience + Kylo's having been injured pretty badly by the bowcaster leaves enough room for suspension of disbelief, especially given that (as I mentioned in an earlier post) this is supposed (like all of Star Wars's Force mythos) a religious allegory. Rey is inspired by a supernatural Force. Plus, as others have pointed out, Kylo isn't even trying to kill Rey. In fact, it's pretty plausible that, like Palpatine with Luke in RoTJ, he's actually trying to activate Rey's latent Force abilities: to show her her own power, the seduction of it, so that she will submit to his tutelage.

So a crop duster is closer to a military fighter jet than a private plane? I'd like to see what a military pilot would say about the prospects of a crop duster pilot being able to execute an immensely difficult military operation: so difficult that the best experienced fighter pilots (Luke's fellow pilots) can't pull it off. The point about Luke wasn't actually intended to suggest that I can't suspend disbelief with Luke's trench run. I can. It's just that I don't see as wide a gulf between the two situations as you do. All we need is enough suspension of disbelief to make the story of supernatural inspiration possible. Without understanding that the Force is a stand-in for religious awe and inspiration, you've simply misunderstood what Star Wars is about.

 

no she isn't.

I'm not going to keep going on and on about Kylo and the fight - you're (And others who are agreeing with you) are wrong. Kylo clearly demonstrates no regard for Rey's safety, has no problem hurting or potentially killing her, he isnt hampered by his wound etc... and the script and movie bare this out. If you aren't willing to accept those facts I'm not going to keep repeating them - and at the end of the day it doesn't matter. Even if you're right (And the script and film prove you aren't), Rey DEFEATS Kylo the first time she picks up a lightsaber, while in ESB Luke in the exact same position loses to Vader - and Luke has experience and training behind him. This is the difference and why Rey falls into the Mary Sue catagory

This is the heart of the matter though - Rey isn't perfect, she has SO MANY FLAWS and FAILS A LOT - Such as? Name all the flaws, all the things she can't do, all the times she needs help, all the things she fails at, allt he skills/talents she lacks, her negative personality traits etc....

 

Yep.

 

You also keep leaving out the part where Luke woudl fly it through a canyon very much ilke the trench and shoot small animals - so yes, flying a plane that requires flying in a situation very similar to the death star trench, and shooting animals about the same size as the target would be better prep. for what he did then setting a private yet to auto-pilot and letting it fly itself 40,000 feet in the air.

Luke only pulled it off because 1) Biggs sacrifaced himself 2) Vader missed a shot and hit R2 and 3) Han showed up when he did. I asked you before what Luke actually did to directly defeat Vader (not blow up the death star) in that scene and you still haven't give me an answer.

And someone using a weapon they've never used (never turned on) before and defeating someone with training and experience one-on-one goes beyond suspension of disbelief. And if that was ALL Rey did, it would be forgivable - but Rey also flys the Falcon when she has no reason know how too. She out flys two military pilots in military craft, she knows how to fix the ship BETTER then Han does, she turns into a marks-man the first time she uses a blaster. Without knowing she can use the force (possibly believing it wasn't even real hours before) she kicks Kylo out of her mind AND THEN actively mind-tricks someone - Luke doesn't do anything near these feats in ANH. So even if his death star run is beyond suspension of disbelief, it doesn't make the character a Mary Sue because he hasn't spent the entire movie using the force, showing up Obi-wan and Han, beating Vader in a duel etc....

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 25, 2017 ---

I believe the first time we see her with someone else is the old woman cleaning her stuff.

 

Yeah but she wasn't fighting her.