Will Rey turn to the dark side?

Fair enough. Agree to disagree
(You seem awfully stressed for someone who is sure of his arguments. Relax Bro )

 

Still waiting for all those examples of how flawed Rey is and all the times she failed though..........

And no, its not agree to disagree. You're wrong, its there in black and white. Its written down by the people who made the movie. Its on the screen. The only way you can come to the conclusion that Kylo didn't want to kill or even hurt Rey is to ignore things like him smashing her into a tree (10-20 feet in the air), ignore him leaving her on a planet that was coming a part and ignore the script. Its more "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink".

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 25, 2017, Original Post Date: Jul 25, 2017 ---

Yes - thas the point. The first time we see Rey with other people she isn't fighting.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 25, 2017 ---

All you did was make the case for why Kylo would be so pissed he'd want to kill Rey (or anyone in his way by the point) quickly and be done with it (which is kinda what the script bares out).

In his condition? You mean that condition in which he was able to dispatch Finn fairly easily? Yes he was clearly not in a place to fight well - lol.

 

no, i made a case for Ren being way off his game.
but that's okay. i can't really argue with your unmovable subjective interpretation of the character (or of Rey for that matter).
if you think Kylo Ren was in fighting trim and determined to defeat Rey but she overpowered him because of convenient plot whatever, you go with that. : D

 

No, you made the case for someone is tried, anger, fed up and would have zero patience for "toying" with someone or getting itno a fight he isn't trying to win (ie - going out of his way to not hurt Rey but turn her) butw ould just want to kill them, take the lightsaber he thinks is his and leave. And this is proven by his actions.

Whats the first thing he does? He uses the force to throw Rey back - 30 feet and 10-20 feet in the air, into a tree (potentially killing her) then falling to the ground (potentially killing her). He gets rid of Finn fairly quickly. If Rey doesn't wake up when she does do you think Kylo hangs around and waits for her to wake? Why was he able to deal with Finn in a couple minutes but over powered by Rey? Same injury, same events leading up to it - you're still left with the conclusion that Rey is just so awesome that she can beat him while a normal person (Finn) gets beats in a couple minutes.........

You are aware thats what the script says right? Kylo was hampered by his injury but his rage more then made up for it. That he attacks Rey aggreesively. That she is is then so good and powerful she turns it around on him......Your version of events doesn't line up with what was written or on screen.

 

So, uh, once again this thread has veered pretty off topic.

Maybe someone should make a thread of "Is Rey a Mary Sue?" complete with a poll.

Might I suggest these answers:

- Yes, she is
- Perhaps, but that shouldn't affect one's enjoyment of a character
- Perhaps, but the term is outdated and obsolete
-No, she is not

Honestly trying to be as objective as possible here, so if anyone would like to add/adjust these (in a reasonable way) any feedback is appreciated.

 

No. I made my case. I listed things quite clearly in my previous posts. If you dont see it, you dont. I can live with it. You repeating I am wrong and you are right does not make you right nor makes me wrong. I agree to disagree. What will you do is up to you.

--- Double Post Merged, Jul 25, 2017 ---

Lol....so one post per poster?

Perhaps add an option 'she is an imperfect perfect Mary Sue'

 

I have yet to see a list of Rey's flaws and failures from you or anyone.

 

So you are acknowledging she's not perfect hence you moved the goalpost.

I completely agree he wasn't concerned for her safety. But you are quoting dialogue of the script and ising it to determine what can be seen on screen. In the fight Rey only has the upper hand at the end. Prior to that she is pushed back, shuffles back and even if you won't call it fleeing she turns her nack several times and tuns trying to get more distance. The issue here is some of these elements are clear cut and some are subjective. Trying to push the I am obviously right angle is only going to work where there is no ambiguity.

The film at several points makes it clear Chewie's bowcaster is a powerful weapon knocking multiple stormtroopers high in the air with 1 shot. Kylo takes a hit. They further show the blood dripping, and have him psyching himself up as he hits himself. So I think its clear he is wounded significantly.

 

No, Mary Sue doesn't equal literal perfection. A character who is "perfect" in the Mary Sue sense but stammers a line isn't "not a Mary Sue" because a stammer is an imperfection.

backing up and getting space isn't fleeing. Running is Fleeing, escaping is fleeing. This is also gets away from the actual point - she doesn't knwo what she is doing. SHe doesn't know how to fight with that weapon. She doesn't its balance, its length, its weight. She shouldn't be able to defend against a combatant like Kylo the way she doesn't. She shouldn't be able to turn the tables on him. She shouldn't be able to defeat him in the end. She doesn't know what she is doing - but the way the character is written doesn't allow for that. Rey always knows what she is doing, and is always good at it, at all times. What happens on screen an din the script bares this out. This idea that Kylo was going eas yon her or didn't want to hurt her or wasn't in fighting shape (enough to defeat an inexperienced, untrained opponent, isn't supported in the script or on screen.

They make it clear he isn't significantly injuried. He doesn't goes flying back. He catches up with two able bodied people in the snow. He hits the wound make himself stronger. He is able to beat Finn fairly easily with the wound. And the script says it hampers but his rage more then makes up for it.

 

You said she was perfect. Mr. Its All Black and White is implying words can be subjectively for emphasis or effect. I wonder considering that a single simple sentence can't be reliably black and white how are we to suggest that a film with many more layers of artistry, multiple creative contributers might just might have elements that people see differently.

Lets call it fighting desparely while trying to move away. If you need to define fleeing as fleeing only if they get away. (Unsuccessful at fleeing FLAW). But which is it she doesn't have the skills or she's perfect? She loses 2/3rds the fight then with the force is able to win.

So was the film wrong when Kylo was insignificantly injured or when it threw Stormtroopers around like rag dolls. Or is it most consistent to suggest that the wound is substantial but he was able to fight on. If they didn't want to hughlight the wound they would have had him block the shot with his sabre, not waste time on blood in the snow, and show him punching his wound.

 

In the context that she fits the Mary Sue trope. I'm still waiting for that list of flaws and failures.

mixed in which her pushing Kylo back - which is in the script and novel and movie. She then beats him USING THE LIGHTSABER,w hich she should in no way be able to do. If you';re going to fall back on "a wizard did it".....shs a Mary sue.

https://www.google.ca/#q=Fleeing - running away is in the definition.

Id' say the ragdoll thing was silly, however it shows that Kylo didn't get hit directly, most likely a graze. No, the wound is clearly not substancial - he caught up to them with hit, defeated Finn with hit, escaped the planet with it. The script says it hampered him by his rage more then makes up for it. If the wound was so substancial, do you really think he'd be hitting it?

 

You're going to have to wait until December, then, and you better be expecting a pretty long list.

As I've pointed out recently on this very thread: the hero/heroine overcomes most if not all obstacles in the first part of a trilogy, as this is what fundamentally attracts the audience into supporting them and allows an attachment that feels justified; I'm struggling to think of any failures or flaws of Anakin's or Luke's, in I or IV respectively, that aren't only subjectively considered minor failures or flaws, similar to Rey in VII.

The major objective failures or flaws comes with their failure in the second part of the trilogy, as this designed for optimal character development, meaning that this is more than likely where the hero/heroine will face their greatest obstacles and more than likely fail to learn a vital lesson, which is reflected in II and V with Anakin and Luke; I'm struggling to understand why people think this won't be the exact same with Rey in VIII.

 

I was asking people who are already claiming she has flaws and failures. I know why they won't give the list - its only 2-3 items long and its "she looked at a Rathtar for too long". That list won't look good stacked up against the "Mary Sue" argument list.

The problem with Rey/reason she is Mary Sue is that she over comes EVERY obstacle, without help, seeming always possessing the skill/talent/attibute needed at any given moment. She helps BB-8, of course she can understand him. She needs to get away from the TIE, not only can she fly she's good enough to out fly military trained pilots in military craft (while in a cargo ship, thats old and neglected) AND set up the final shot. She's good enough with a lightsaber to defeat Kylo Ren. She figures how to use the Jedi Mind Trick without any training (Anakin didn't/could even do that) etc.... Theres no development, growth, reliance on other people, volunerability, flaws or failure to over come in the futere etc... Shes already great at everything.

To compare to Luke - Luke didn't use the force until Obi-wan gave him some instruction. He didn't beat Vader until the 3rd movie. He needed Han to get him off Tatoonie. Did he hit even one stromtrooper on the Death Star? etc... By the end of ANH there still things for Luke to attempt and over come, growth, things he had to learn etc... That isn't there with Rey. She's already great at everything.

 

Hampered him. As in made it more difficult. At this point we are piddling about degrees of how off his game he was. I think given the other evidence of how much damage the bowcaster is capable and the fact they higlighted the injury visually that the choice in direction was to imply the wound was significant. Scripts are rarely followed to perfection.

Without help.
1- Warnings to get clear of tie fighter blasts = help
2- You already admitted Finn shot down the ties = help
3- Pulled away from Rathtar by Finn = help
4- The third act is a rescue mission by Finn to Save her = help

You are likely exaggerating and are now going to scold me for how help relates to being a Mary Sue.

Its not that you aren't pointing out things we all don't see its that you are exaggerating them out of proportion. At first I think your exaggeration was style but I think at this point you are making a concerted effort to hold an unnecessary line.

 

Eh it was same day. You know what I mean. One of her first scenes was her fighting. That is all.

 

here's an observation:
Rey's face in all the new books and cartoons and such--it's a little angry.
her eyebrows are almost always pitched (even on the FoD dollie).

Rey definitely has a temper. she flashes it a lot in TFA.
she will certainly be tempted because this is one of her weaknesses.

still don't think she'll go full Dark, but i think she'll get a lot closer than Luke ever did.

 

The eyebrows are a look of determination. She is determined to destroy evil/kylo. Rey lived on Jakku, the worst planet we've seen in star wars so far. She's been alone fighting for her life against murderers, and thieves, since a small child. She has seen the absolute worst society has to offer, yet after all those years she remained a good person, a person with morals and integrity. If Jakku didn't make her evil nothing would.

 

its hampering BUT his rage is more the making up for it. The script makes it clear, he isn't off his game. ANd sorry, the evidence (he wasn't thrown back, so probablyonly grazed), the fact he caught up to them at all, how quickly he defeated Finn, the hitting the wound to build himself up........not significant at all.

Wow, what an impressive life. She clearly is a deeply flawed character who can't identify Tie Fighers at a great distance only be sound and looks at monsters for a couple seconds.......... This list just proves my point.

Lets do the "Mary Sue" list
1) Rey seems able to speak/understand both Wookie and Astromech. I guess lots of them on Jakku
2) Rey (a dirt poor scavenger who works for food) is not only a pilot, but so good that she can out fly to military pilots in military craft while flying a old, cargo ship
3) She is so gifted mechanically she twice repairs said cargo ship in a matter of minutes, the 2nd time showing up the owners of the ship.
4) The first time she is given and uses a blaster she is picking up multiple Stromtroopers at a distance.
5) Without knowing she could use the force (possibly thinking its a myth) she pushes Kylo out of her mind AND mind tricks someone.
6) Having never even picked up a lightsaber, she beats a trained, experienced opponent in one-on-one combat (after said combatant dispatched Finn fairly easily with the same injuries)
7) Despite being a dirty poor scavanger tomboy, she is also so beautiful Finn is hitting on her ASAP
8) The OT heroes accept her as one of their own instantly.

But ya she looked at a Rathtar for 2-3 seconds, clearly she isn't perfect or have whatever skill/talent/ability she needs with no logical reason given for how/why.

Totally agree.

 

Rey is pretty much LucasFilms new mascot. She's set up to be a female role model.

She won't go dark. Not like Anakin anyway.