Will Rey turn to the dark side?

Hey man more power to you. You read the script cool beans despite what was on camera you take a line of subtext meant for the actor over the choices the director put on the screen. He took screen time to show us the power of the bowcaster and the blood and the hitting himself all to show the wound was fully irrelevant.

Can we get a moving the goal post rating?

You said she was perfect. When shown imperfections you minimize them and explain you didn't mean literal perfection. Then you declare she did all these things with no help at all. When I point out that she got help at several points you suggest I haven't proven flaws.

 

He did, then Kylo didn't go flying back. What does that tell you about the nature of the high Kylo took? And he did add in the hitting of the wound.....to visually demonstrate Kylo drawing power from it.

LOL - what goal post has been moved?

I said she was perfect in regards to being a mary sue - you not understanding what is being said isn't the goal being moved. And yes, if your imperfection is "she looked at a monster for 2 seconds too long"..........you have a weak sauce argument.

 

Here is where you said she did everything without help.

Here is where I showed where she recieved help in a few places.

Here you respond not by proving she recieved no help. But instead ignoring your own statement that it was achieved without help and moved the goal post back flawlessness.

Also flawless is simply a synonym for perfect so any flaw even ones you think are small still mean flawLESS is an exaggeration.

 

Again - you not understanding what a mary Sue is and what "perfect" is in those terms isn't the goal post changing. I also suspect you KNOW she is Mary Sue since you've tried change the topic (goal post moving.....) away from her being a Mary Sue to my use of the word perfect.

So fine, we'll move the goal posts to where you want them. I spoke to generally, I didn't make it clear enough for you to understand. Rey is not literally perfect and gets pushed away from a monster should probably would have run away from on her own. You are 100% correct.

She is still a Mary Sue for all the reasons I've pointed out.

 

Lol. In you rant here about how dumb I am and how little I understand. You ignored that I was responding in the 1st 2/3rds of my post to the issue of whether or not she got help. Which again you ignored.

At least you engaged on flawless/perfect you have seen the list you considered them minor my point is any flaw means she isn't flawless and your exaggeration overshoots.

I don't really care how you define Mary Sue. I am well aware what it means. It is in my opinion a term that some people take offense to so I have largely avoided it.

 

no, I've just pointed out how you 1) You didn't read perfect as related to the topic and 2) How you've moved the goal post - is Rey perfect vs is Rey a Mary Sue.

So, I agreed you were right when it comes to your new goal post position. Rey is not literally perfect. You are right.

Now - is she a Mary Sue? Yes.

 

Here comes the strawman again.

 

Lol

You said perfect. Yesterday we went through examples of imperfection. You then explained how I don't understand perfection as it pertained to being a Mary Sue. Which whether you acknowledge it or not shows the idea she is "perfect" to be an exaggeration.

Last night I provided direct examples of how she recieved help. You have at each time since ignored the issue of help in favor of flaws or Mary Sue.

Both of those were you backing off your exaggerations or moving the goal posts.

If you want to call her a Mary Sue go for it man. Its not a term I like. Even if you are not using it in a sexist manner which most people take it these days. It implies a shallowness to the character that I don't think is warranted given I find there to be a number of layers to the character and her performance.

 

He did the same thing with me yesterday. Just wait he will start giving you trolling ratings.

 

I said perfect while talking about Mary Sues. However I have said twice now that you're right, she isn't perfect. She looked at the Rathtar for several seconds.

So moving back to the original point - is she a Mary Sue? You've yet to deal with the actual issue that I brought up. You can not like it, but the evidence is there.

 

I also pointed out where she was helped but its cool I think that is obvious.

I just said I don't think she's a Mary Sue. Its a subjective term even if you don't see it as offensive. I don't think she qualifies. She has flaws, she gets help her skills are explained. Even where her victory is unexplained it is providence of the Force.

 

Except rey fits a high number of the tropes.

 

So, because the discussion of whether or not Rey turns to the Dark side has delved into the discussion of whether or not she's a "Mary Sue"- which is a tangently related discussion, but not quite the subject of this thread- I've gone ahead and created another thread for that discussion.

If that is a conversation you'd be interested in having, perhaps do it there so this thread can get back on track.

Thanks a bunch.

 

Sorry. I guess unintended. I don't think she will turn, her place in the narrative is the opposition and parallel to the antagonist.

 

No it's fine- like I said, it's definitely a related discussion, but it's been a tangent that has been going on for the majority of this thread now, and I think the discussion is much bigger than that.

Interesting thought that her place is to be a pretty central and static moral good. I often reference the current state of entertainment as being obsessed with moral greys and crazy twists. Game of Thrones is a pretty good example of this, but we need not even leave Star Wars to see this- just look at how influential The Grey is becoming in Rebels.

Not to say Rey would be bound by that sense of moral ambiguity. You could totally be right, and Rey might be more of a pillar of moral right than I might suspect.

The other big question here: your idea assumes that the "antagonist" will also be a relative pillar of his or her ideals, at least for the majority of the trilogy. Do you think this is Kylo? Snoke? Someone else? Just curious.

 

Of course not - Kennedy isn't going to allow her flagship "strong, female hero" turn to the darkside. Rey turned out as Mary Sue because Kennedy and co. were going to extreme lengths to create and have that strong, female lead. They feel into that trap of "the strong female lead has to be great at everything or she's weak".

 

Seems like there's a little bit of truth on both sides. On one hand Rey has an unusually wide array of skills in which she shows proficiencies and extremely muted flaws (if they even can be said to exist). She is given an unusually accomplished and polished profile for someone just beginning their journey... and frankly it does feel out of place; I'm straining to think of someone with a similar profile - Anakin maybe? But even little Anakin had a lot of fear.

And it's not that she's perfect, it's that she's idealized in a way that doesn't seem to provide much of a pathway for growth. What flaw or challenge did she have to overcome in TFA? Serious question. Best I can come up with is she didn't want to leave Jakku because she's waiting on family to return... hardly feels like a flaw... feels endearing. I kind of feel like @Canadian Ronin has made some valid observations here even if we disagree with his conclusion.

That said, @Pastor Barndog has made some valid observations, chief among them that neither by the letter or the spirit of the definition of Mary Sue does Rey qualify. Yes she is more polished than what is probably warranted in the first movie, but she isn't perfect and she does receive an abundance of help in most of her accomplishments. And I think the TPTB went out of their way to make Rey's victory plausible. They go through pains to demonstrate just how powerful Chewie's Bowcaster was before they let Kylo take a hit from it. He was emotionally compromised, shot by Chewie's Bowcaster, wounded again by Finn, and he isn't trying to kill her - how much more conscientious an effort could they make? She retreats almost the entire battle, and when she does fight back it's all force, no finesse and no skill.

I think what will further solidify that she is no Mary Sue is that I think you will see her fail significantly in TLJ, either in defeat by the Dark Side or in succumbing to it (which brings us back to the thread topic). I personally was amazed that they allowed Rey to be frozen, rendered unconscious, and carried off like a damsel in distress on Kylo's shuttle. That was kind of tropish and no one really talks about it.

TL;DR - Canadian and Pastor have both made valid observations. if she doesn't succumb to the dark side she'll likely be defeated by a Dark Side practitioner and (by coincidence not design) that will put an end to the accusations of Mary Sue.

 

this could obviously have been more overt, but Rey has a trigger knee-jerk reaction to any perceived attack.
her first response to anything coming at her is always pre-emptive hostility.
most obviously she attacks Finn without asking questions first and she fires on Kylo Ren in the same manner (perhaps more justified).
interestingly he calls her out for it specifically in the book, but the line was cut from the film. in the film he just says: you still want to kill me.

in her final moments, she's got Ren down dead to rights and is tempted to kill him (she has every reason to), but he she doesn't.
either that was a huge mistake or it demonstrates a subtle shift in her thinking.

perhaps too subtle for some viewers.

to me, this and her constant refusal to accept help (even though she needs it time and again) are fundamental character flaws that will lead her to be tempted by the Dark side because they come from a wellspring of fear and anger (and maybe even a little arrogance--who is she to lecture Finn? who is she to tell Han how to run his ship? in at least one case, her inflated sense of ability nearly gets them all killed when she releases the rathtars).

 

Great post, I think her refusal to accept help will bite her in the ass in the next movie unless her training from Luke leads her down a new path of thinking. I do think she will be hurt by Ren but perhaps to be saved by Luke before she can be killed.
To answer the OP no I don't think she will be seduced by the Dark Side, she may be tempted in some way but will not turn. This next movie has a chance to be one of
the best in the story line, I really hope that's what we get.

 

See I didn't get the sense that she attacked pre-emptively. She chased Finn after being led to believe he had stolen Poe's jacket. To me her attack on Finn was part of her established penchant for justice, recall she had just saved BB-8. That's not a flaw. As for her attack on Kylo... she was already being chased in the woods by StormTroopers firing on her and then a dude in a dark cloak with a laser sword starts stalking you? Those shots seemed pretty justified.

And demonstrating independence (which I think is what they were going for) is not the same as refusing all help, just help you don't believe you need. She did actually need it on Jakku (IMO) because she had no idea that the TIEs were on the way.

I do think at the end, when she had Kylo on the ground, there is a snarl on her face, a flash of anger that could be that pathway to the DarkSide (I've argued this before in other posts). I don't think her weakness is arrogance at all, her intentions were good on the cargo ship, she just made an honest mistake, it wasn't hubris. Her weakness is anger. She even flashes rage when she's going after Finn initially. It's anger.