After seeing the movie, do you believe Snoke = Darth Plagueis

It seems more like you want to believe this is Plaugeis rather than look at this objectively. How can Snoke's appearance be consistent with force lightning damage? We have never seen a force lightning victim with injuries like this, but we have seen a burn victim with extremely similar injuries: large scars, damaged flesh, significant cheek damage,and califlowered ears. Luke sustained no such injuries, Mace sustained no such injuries, and Palpatine's appearance may or may not actually be a result of the force lightning and does not include any of the affore mentioned characteristics.

A Sith betrayed Palugeius, not the whole order which barley existed at his time. Sith have been betraying Sith since Sith were Sith. Sith betraying each other is normal and expected and seems inherent in dark side activity. Does creating a new order really prevent betrayals?? No. Loyalty is never guaranteed. Why didn't the Jedi start a new order after other Jedi betrayed and left the order to prevent betrayal? But if Darth P wanted to create a new order, then why did he not do it before Palptine attacked him. If we are using non-canon material as it appears you are, then Darth P wanted to dissolve the rule of two and prevent betrayal before anything happened with Palps, so then why still identify as Darths and not start over before he trained Palps. Just doesn't add up.

And if the Knights of Ren are not derived from the Inquisitors, then where are the Inquisitors? Did they all get killed by two Jedi trainees? Doesn't seem likely. And why could more inquisitors not be trained if some were killed.

It seems more reasonable that members of the Empire would know who Vader really is (like Tarkin who knew Anakin before) rather than Darth P who had no known contact. Clones after all knew Anakin became Vader, and some were even there when he was burned, and those clones became troopers who could gossip. And again, it makes more sense for the G.I. to be leader of the first order given his place in the Empire versus Darth P who had no known connection.

I already identified how Snoke looks like the Inquisitor. Also, is the visual translation from cartoon to live action going to be an exact match? Ashoka was even completely reworked between clone wars and rebels. His voice is even very simular. And the Inquisitor is a new character. He would also be new to live action.

And if it is Darth P, then were in the world did he get the name Snoke from?? Where as we don't know the G.I.'s name.

And looking at this from a buisness stand point and how Disney operates, then Darth P makes no sense. They are trying to be unlike the prequels, so why connect to them? Why not connect to something current and popular and not something old and devisive? The Star Wars attractions after all are based on all new content, not preexisting.

You have to make an aweful lot of inferences to connect Darth P to Snoke where as the G.I. has more evident connections.

 

UOTE="Rieekan, post: 230059, member: 1861"] This is an utapauan from RotS.[/QUOTE]

Maybe his massive head is like a camel hump and he is severely dehydrated.



And if you look at this Pau'an, and depending on the angle of course, his forehead is not quite so big.

 

This thread is about whether or not the movie influenced your opinion. For a more in-depth discussion about Plagueis, please seek out the Plagueis thread. Thanks.

 

Not really, here is the guy who can cheat dead, and was important in the seducing of Anakin to the darkside.

He cheated dead and fooled his apprentice the Emperor Palpatine.

The end of the explanation.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 10, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 10, 2016 ---

Sorry didn't see your post before i posted mine.

 

A Sith survived the prophecy vs. a powerful Dark Side existing during the Empire. Explanations abound. And now I'm guilty of going off-topic. Let's keep the more detailed debating to the Plagueis thread.

 

The title asks if you think Snoke is Darth P after seeing the movie. After seeing the movie, and learning more about Snoke, I don't think it is Darth P and think it is the GI. Don't I have to explain who I think Snoke is if I don't think he is Darth P after seeing the movie? How can I discuss if this is not accepted? If my discussion is not acceptable for the thread, then why not merge the whole thread??

His scarring, which I saw in the movie, looks like extreme burns. He runs a dark side organization that is not the Sith, and in the movie. He has a connection to the Empire via leading the First Order, which is in the movie. He is tall and pale and skinny, which is in the movie.

What happened to "people discuss things here"?

 

I've never been so surprised how many Plagueis threads there are since TFA revealed I just see Snoke as a supreme leader of the first order who's past will be revealed in episode 8 with no ties to Plagueis, for one no long pointy nose is a obvious clue.

 

how is that a clue? Plagueis appearance is not canon anymore

 

Then why are surrounded Plagueis's thread appearing, I admire the hope but it's Snoke show, it's his time.

 

Why Snoke is Plagueis? Here are my arguments (and the one's I thought were very convincing). Note that none of these arguments will be based on the original EU, because it is very likely that the writers of TFA did not really care about the established expanded universe in the first place and only looked at information that is actually revealed in the previous movies:

a.There are seven Knights of Ren and 'Ren' in japanese means lotus: both the number 7 (in western literature) and lotus (in japanese and western literature) have as a symbolical meaning immortality. We have seen how Palpatine seduced Anakin to the darkside with the promise that he could prevent his loved ones from dying. We have also seen that Palpatine thought he could use Anakin's powers to achieve immortality himself. And last we know that Plagueis who himself sought to cheat death was betrayed by Palpatine. Plagueis, revealed not to be dead, has a similar interest in Ben Solo and Rey because they are both Anakin's offspring and both may have the same power which would help him achieve ultimate immortality.

b. Snoke's musical theme in The Force Awakens is very similar to the music played when Palpatine reveals to Anakin the 'tragedy of darth plagueis the wise' (this is a very common one, other people have noticed).

c. Kylo Ren's dialogue: "[...] The Supreme Leader is Wise ". Now this might mean anything, but writers do include these things for reason. It also quite mismatches the actual dialogue in which it is used. It feels like this line is inserted for a reason.

d. Andy Serkis and Lucasfilm have already revealed that Snoke had been around for a long time and has seen the rise and fall of the empire take place.

e. In the script and TFA novelization it is revealed that Snoke has had apprentices before but that these apprentices were primarily darkside users and that his experience with these first apprentices was hardly succesful. Snoke also reveals to Kylo Ren that he needs someone who embodies both the light and dark to mould a person close to perfection. It

f. Snoke's visual appearance: In the movie Snoke is portrayed as very old and badly damaged. He clearly has a saber stroke on the top of his cranium. This might hint to how Palpatine actually betrayed Snoke when the latter was asleep. Again such marks are presented by the writers for a reason. They hint at a violent backstory and functions as staging for the actual reveal in episode VIII or IX.

g. Character similarities: as you might have noticed, Snoke and Palpatine are very much alike in the manner in which they control their underlings and the manner in which they present themselves to their underlings. Both liked to portray themselves as larger than life in their holograms. Both tried to keep their underlings competing for superiority in the hierarchy of their respective empires. Both has a particular interest in the Skywalker lineage. Both likely presented themselves as persons who were seemingly harmless (as shown with Palpatine, and revealed by Leia in TFA about Snoke). If Snoke is Plagueis we can infer that Palpatine executed his masters plan. Now with Snoke returned we get to know what that actual plan involved and whether or not the master (Plagueis/Snoke) is better at executing it than the apprentice (Palpatine).

 

Actually, quite convincing. Nice summary.

 

ok, firstly, enough with what Ren could possibly mean in various languages! if we go off that idea then Plagueis (based off the word plague) would be responsible for what? releasing the Skywalker plague on the galaxy? just give the whole name research thing a rest, because it doesn't hold any water.

the music theme is a little more interesting, but i sort of doubt it is trying to be connective tissue, subtly telling us that Plagy and Snoke are the same person. my doubt is obviously not the be all end all, but it doesn't really feel like enough to make it work.

yeah, he was called wise. good catch.

Serkis and TPTB have said he's been around for while; they also said he's a new character, so Plagy is surely out. but hey, while on the subject, other characters have lived from the PT to the ST without any magical connections to the story: look at Tekka, or maybe even Rex and other clones. blast, look at Boba Fett! maybe he's Plagueis!

Snoke has had several apprentices; at least seven, from what i can gather! hardly telling.

Snoke's appearance doesn't really say anything. no one knows what Plagueis looked like or even how he died. all we know is that he was killed in his sleep, so goodness knows what that means.

similarities between Snoke and Palpatine means Snoke is Plagueis? with that logic Luke should be just like Obi and Yoda, and Vader should be just like Palps. what a boring idea for a movie: let's just have all the villains play off each other and never really change; i mean, they did teach each other!

 

names and philology: As for the 'name research', or etymology/philology, a field of study which has to do with the origins of texts and the meaning of words: did you notice that it did work in revealing information about the characters in all the previous movies. Again writers don't create these names out of nothing, they have a symbolical meaning. For instance Dutch fans already knew about Darth Vader's likely idenity because his name translates as 'father' in dutch. Also, 'Luke' is derived from 'lucere' meaning 'light'. Plagueis in Latin does not only mean plague. As you know plague is derived in english from the latin word for plague. But what does Plagueis actually mean in Latin? It means literally 'chastisement' or 'root/origins of chastisement', which in the case of Darth Plagueis would literally mean that his name was picked by Lucas because it translated as 'root of evil' and of all the other malice in the galaxy. And lucasfilm has revealed that he is strong in the force. There was only one character revealed in the movies who was so strong in the force that he could even cheat death.

Music: Any musicologist can tell you that Snoke's theme has the same musical structure. It's a technical thing, a concious choice of the person who made the music and directed it. Williams would never ripp off his own themes just because they sound fancy. What Williams does is tell a story with musical themes and motifs. This one is just too obvious and by far the best and only uncontestable evidence for Snoke being Plagueis. Or at least that's how the writers and composer for TFA intended it. Ryan Johnson might say "Blast it" I'll change it.

The number 7: I did not mean to say that snoke had seven apprentices, but that there are 7 knights of Ren, and that both 'Ren' and the number 7 are symbolical for immortality. Which of the movies characters was interested in immortality?

Damage to Snoke: now just place yourself in the mind of someone who makes a movie or writes a story. You only show that Snoke is damaged because it has a specific purpose to the story and the imagined backgrounds of the character. It is unlikely that Snoke is an unestablished character for which they will have to sacrifice valuable storytelling space just to explain who he is and how is related to all the other star wars movies. It would be stupid. Any writer knows that. Therefore they choose a character which is hinted at in the other movies and make him relevent for the new story. In such a way the character becomes grounded in the new and old movies and his motives and place do not require too much space within the story. This is basic narratology.

Similarities: Basically the same story as under the heading "damage to snoke". They want to save up space in the story and movie to explain other things. Showing Snoke as being quite similar to Palpatine gives a hint at what his true identity might be but without having to reserve to much space to explain it. Again look at my original post.

These are all pieces of evidence which add up. The interesting about my evidence and arguments iss that they can all be explained from a storytelling or moviemaking perspective, i.e. on the basis of the writers choices and the logical reasoning behind it. The writers for this movie will only introduce characters whose role in the story they can explain in reference to the plotlines established in the previous films. Simple logic, because a novice audience would have difficulty identitfying people who are brought in from outside the universe or the movies. It becomes way to complex.

 

color me not impressed.

may you and your pseudo-intellectual observations be vindicated! until such a time: PLAGUEIS IS DEAD.

 

To me he does resemble a badly scarred muun, perhaps the survivor of an assassination attempt. For Snoke to not be Sith he would need to compete with and explain his undetected existence among thousands of years of Sith dominance. It creates a richer arch on the villain side with Plagueis going from being Palpatine's fool to an avenger over Palpatine.

 

there was no Sith dominance: they were literally in hiding for hundreds and hundreds of years. unless, of course, you're talking about the Sith empire prior to the Republic? is that canon these days?

as for him looking like a Muun, i beg to differ. i don't think Muun's have ears, whereas Snoke does. i mean, he could have grown some due to being assassinated and then somehow revived (still don't know how that one's supposed to work)...

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Muun

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 11, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 11, 2016 ---

aw, @Veradun , what's the matter? why the dislikes? i'm just saying it how it is! just wait for the rest of this trilogy to play out: you'll see

 

George sends his regards and he does not look happy.

 

If he is Plagueis, I hope they mention midichlorians too. I sure would love to see some podracing, and some Gungans too.

Lucas was pushed out because his plan was a turd. He was obviously setting the saga up for Darth Plagueis. Disney and J.J. are honoring his work on the original trilogy, not the prequels. If you want it to go in the direction of Darth Plagueis, then you should agree with the first 2 sentences above. End of discussion.

 

The only problem with this is that Snoke is already alive and we assume that he's been in power for a while when we come into The Force Awakens. In fact, Snoke is the one who says, "there's been an awakening, have you felt it?" so it wouldn't be him that the title is about.

--- Double Post Merged, Jan 12, 2016, Original Post Date: Jan 12, 2016 ---

Not exactly, the theme during that scene is more to signify what the two are grieving over. It's implied in the movie that these two don't know each other at all, so why would they be embracing? The reason is because they share a common sorrow over the one they both just lost.