Has your TLJ opinion changed dramatically over time?

I see that as basically being the point, though.

You're totally right that during the film we're supposed to see Holdo as a sort of villain, "The Man", someone who is totally underqualified to fill Leia's shoes and is leading the Resistance to its utter doom.

Then, in the end, it's revealed that Holdo was justified in doing what she did (even in keeping this info from Poe).

We see a pretty similar arc with Lando in his ESB arc, I guess (though I don't think it could be said his goals were entirely utilitarian the whole time).

I just feel like some people stopped paying attention to the last act of the film and are still stuck in that moment where Holdo is still the "villain".

 

i know this was my experience: everything after Luke said "i can't save him" was utterly lost to me the first watch.
so i can totally appreciate that people got thrown out by a variety of shocks and maybe never got back in afterwards, or formed opinions of scenes based on memories that aren't accurate (i've seen so many discussions about intent or explanations that are starkly in the film, but people seem to have not noticed or can't accept).

with regards to Holdo specifically:
it seems like Poe was acting like a crazy person and i don't know why anyone would think it imperative that she tell him anything.
it's still a military operation and the commander does not answer to the demoted captain. [shrug].

 

. . . I had more trouble with TLJ the second time around.

I have warmed up to the opening sequence and I can admit I enjoyed the ending (though full disclosure I am not a fan of Luke's death).

The middle 2/3rds of this movie is excruciatingly plodding and irrelevant.

It took me three viewings to get through the entire movie the second time around. I turned it off twice during the second hour. I was bored - and this hasn't happened with any other SW movie.

I get most like the movie, but I am curious if your opinions have changed over subsequent viewings.

For me, I have warmed up to the beginning and the end, but the bulk of the movie (the middle) was so slow and uneventful, that it only supported itself with a bit too much humor and a curiosity on what was going on with Reylo's connection.

Thoughts?

 

So it started strong and finished strong for you. I can understand that. I didn't have much issue with the opening sequence (except the puzzling fragility of the heavy bombers - plot device I suppose). The ending kind of left me flat because I was hoping to see Luke battle one more time. But I guess the MF taking out all the TIEs and the chase scene through Crait was exciting. The Skimmers didn't really do all that much. The middle of the movie does drag... Canto Bight is the principle anchor dragging on the ocean floor, but the Force Skype scenes (while informative) feel superfalous. The throne room battle was good and I think the hyperspace attack is universally praised (even those who didn't like the movie, liked this sequence).

I haven't been able to watch it in full. I've watched clips on youtube for particular scenes and honestly, it hasn't gotten any better. I dislike it as much now as I did when I left the theaters. It is a great visual movie, a terrible SW movie.

 

I wish there was a thread where we could discuss this topic.


edit: well now I look silly.

 

The Yoda section wasn't easy to understand at first as well. It even almost seems like he wants the Jedi to end based on how he talks. "It is time..." That whole conversation Yoda has with Luke is so great and stands up well on rewatch.

 

Interestingly, I think this movie will get better with age.

My initial viewing also left me wanting more. It really f'ed with my head cannon -- the big baddie killed off suddenly with no further exposition about his background, Luke being a grumpy defeated man in isolation, Finn separated from our new heroes off on some wild goose (fathier) chase ....

Yet, after multiple viewings, I think my initial difficulties with the movie have more to do with the fact that the whole story hasn't been told. I think we're going to get more background on Luke's exile, Snoke's rise to power, and Rey's background in IX -- that that background will only make Episode VIII better.

Don't believe the common group-think out there that Disney doesn't have an overarching plan for the sequel trilogy. Disney certainly gives its writers and directors leeway to craft their stories but they're doing it within a larger structured story and we're only 2/3rds of the way through it.

The second installment is all about challenging the heroes--which Rian did very well.
The third installment is about resolution ....

 

i got through the Yoda section without any trouble at all. maybe because i expected him to speak in somewhat riddly language. i had no problem with that scene and it actually gave me quite the warm fuzzies. i had way more trouble with Luke contemplating the murder of Ben and then later saying he couldn't save him.

on additional viewings, i saw the "murder" for what it really was: Luke having a moment of weakness, which he instantly recognized and regretted so deeply, it caused him to go into exile. i think both Yoda and Rey teach him something about that moment, which is wonderful: he has something to learn from the old and from the new. but man, on first watch, i was freaking out ~ hahahaha

when you look at the movie through the eyes of the generations we're seeing across the saga and think about Yoda's line about masters being what they grow beyond, it's really quite lovely.

 

I think what @DailyPlunge was referring to was this dialogue:

Luke: So it is time for the Jedi Order to end?

Yoda: Time it is... hmm, for you to look past a pile of old books, hmm?


Not to be like that guy who overexplains a joke, but I think this line cleverly plays with Yoda's cadence and speech patterns. If his line had ended at "time it is", then the audience would've expected that he did want the Jedi to end. After all, that's basically Yoda speak for "It is time", answering Luke's question in the affirmative.

But with the addition of "for you to look past a pile of old books", Yoda is actually revealing that it may not be time for the Jedi to end, but for Luke to let go of tradition. The word "subversion" gets tossed around quite a bit with this film, but this is a little mini subversion- the first half of Yoda's sentence implies one thing, while the end brings it an entirely different meaning.

So I guess that could be a little difficult to follow.

 

i know he's referring to that. but i don't know why that's hard to follow. again, if you're not paying attention or if you're preconceiving the flow of the dialogue, i can see how people might be confused, but like i said, it's Yoda, so i certainly paid attention more closely and he's obviously making a dramatic pause to make people think he's dissing the Jedi when he's not.

i dunno. i think people overthink this stuff so much. "he's manipulating her", "she's lying", there's some big mystery, etc. etc. etc.

 

Ahh, gotcha.

Yeah, I don't know. I think people just like to have stuff to speculate on.

Regarding that line, maybe it didn't translate well into other languages?

 

I actually followed this in the film, but I've read multiple people who interpreted Yoda incorrectly. Now that the film is out there the confusion is gone, but keep in mind people made up some strong opinions about the film based on their first viewing and what people interpreted right away.

 

That makes sense. If you just see the movie once in theaters and miss a line, you're SOL.

 

oh absolutely! i had trouble with a lot of other things on first viewing for that reason, just not this particular one.
my theory is that the more passionate we feel about the outcome of something, the more likely we mis-hear it.
in the case of the Jedi ending, i really didn't care, so i was more able to listen, whereas in with regard to Ben's fate, i was absolutely irrational ~ hahaha

like you said, i still see people saying "Leia said her son is gone" therefore he's a lost cause.
this ignores the fact that Luke answers that with "no one is ever really gone".
there are so many molehills that people make mountains of by divorcing them from their context.

 

https://www.cinemablend.com/news/23...=fbk&utm_term=cb-fbk-m-intl-1f0fcc35.qxks0dw5

 

Good article... the comment section is full of the same 10 people telling everyone how horrible the film. I think people are more upset that the film is popular than they are that they didn't like it.

 

Lol. Mine was intended to be about your second viewing only, not numerous subsequent ones. I wanted to eliminate the natural reactions associated with numerous viewings of the same plot. Human nature starts to rationalize and fill-in at that point. But, hey, the mods agree with you, so props to you.

 

Tell that to Kan.....i mean the good people of RT.

 

Yeah. Tip: don't go into the YouTube comment section on the Star Wars main channel, and especially the Solo trailer. It's a cesspool.

 

Watching the film multiple times, it just gets better and better, and it cements itself for me as one of the best of the saga. I'm so glad I don't have to be miserable about it, as many have chosen to be due to their own close-mindedness, their unwillingness to accept change, and their deification of the character of Luke.