Has your TLJ opinion changed dramatically over time?

To anyone who doesn't like TLJ and wants to give this film another chance - wait. Wait until 2020, when the ST is over, or even until 2021, when the emotions surrounding this trilogy start to die out. If you feel like you don't care as much as you used to, only then play the film. I did this exact thing with LotR trilogy and Hail, Caesar!, both of which I wasn't really into when I saw them for the first time, and in both cases I became a big fan of these films. If it doesn't work for you, sorry. If it does, welcome to the club.

 

Loved The Last Jedi then, still love it now. No drastic change of opinion other than the fact that I can say with more confidence than in my first viewing that The Last Jedi is a masterpiece.

 

I know there does seem to be a feeling among people who love the film(not necessarily yourself) that think those of us who hate the film want to hate it, which really isn't true(well isn't in my case!)
So I will forever be giving the film another chance as I want to love it, its Star Wars and I'm a massive Star Wars fan why would I not want to love it? so It would make me incredibly happy if I learn to love the film over time.
I'm worried though that is is going to overtake Star Trek Generations, which has held the spot for 25 years as the film that I would most like to go back in time and have someone remake it.
But I will always be giving the film another chance, whether it be next month next year next decade when I'm on my deathbed.... I will always be hoping my opinion changes and I at least learn not to hate it.

 

Whenever I go to the movies, I usually know right away whether I like a film or not. I came out of Thor Ragnorok amazed; when I came out of Mad Max Fury Road, I couldn't believe I could like a movie so much, The best Action film in the last ten years IMO. I knew right away these films were great. The Matrix was the same, and Fight Club.

With TLJ, I didn't know how to feel. Underwhelmed is a good word. I stayed away from spoilers, tried not to speculate and I still enjoyed TLJ less then TFA or any other movie I've seen this year. Is it my own fault? Maybe, but I went in with my expectations lowered and was still disappointed. I also want to like the film more as well, I can't convince myself to though.

 

My opinions can change on films after a few watches, for example Rogue One i was kind of luke warm it when i saw it, I wanted the war movie we were promised. But after I'd got over that disappointment, Ive really learned to love that film. Thor Ragnarok is another one, when i first saw it i found the comedy a bit too much, but when ive re-watched it and thinking of it as a comedy i had a fun time.

WIth the Last Jedi i went in expecting to just get a grumpy Luke who dies, Reys Parents to be no one and Snoke not to have a backstory, so i don't think expectations were my issue with this film, I just thought the film was a mess and yeah like you say underwhelming. I really hoped my opinion would change but it hasn't unfortunately.

 

Yeah, sort of how I felt. You can't lump all haters (or lovers for that matter) into the same box. From what I've read, people love aspects of TLJ for different reasons, and the same goes for those who hate (dislike) the movie. In general terms, it might sound like we hated or enjoyed the same thing, but once you dig a little, you quickly see that people's opinion on the movie, positive or negative, varies quite a bit. Some poeple like that Rey is super powerful, others see Rey as being vulnerable and flawed and like her that way, while others believe her to be a hero who meets adversity and handles it like most any other hero would. Some people on both sides think she's a Mary Sue, but those who love the movie love that there's finally a character in SW who's that powerful, while those who hate the movie hate those kinds of characters in movies.

People love and hate this movie in layers. I find it amazing that RJ was able to create so many different emotions from the viewers. I think as fans we've all inserted a great deal of our interpretations into the happenings of TLJ, and after EPIX and the conclusion of the ST, we'll all have to deal with what actually what happened in the story vs what we think is happening. That's not to say everyone will hate it once their head canon is set straight, I like being surprised (most of the time), but it will make for an interesting place to talk about it after everyone knows the story for what it is.

I for one sincerely hope I'm impressed and eat crow for not trusting in LFL, KK, JJ, RJ and Disney. I'd rather admit I was wrong and love SW again than have as little interest in it as I do now.

 

yeah pretty much echo everything your saying, I think to be honest, Johnson designed the film to be polarising which is why you get such a wide variety of feelings towards you film. Like you say its isn't just 2 camps, it isn't just people who love the film and people who hate the film, people love it and hate it for different reasons, myself for example I hated the film, but i can't say the Mary-Sue stuff really bothers me.

Yeah I want to be proved wrong by Kathleen Kennedy and Disney but at this stage I can't say I have a lot of faith, I mean directors seem to be changing every 10 seconds, stories seem to be re-written every ten seconds and thier doesn't seem to be any kind of plan. So yeah like you I want to be proved wrong, but i can't say i have a lot of faith.

 

RJ is a very visual director, but I did feel that on occasion he had difficulty conveying character and conflict on the screen. Holdo’s qualms about sharing her plans with Poe should have been made clearer, maybe with a scene where she explains this to D’Acy or one of the other officers, saying something like: “He’s too impulsive. I don’t trust him. Leia has been too lenient with him”. Also RJ did not work enough with the character of Rose on screen. The fangirl dynamic was not interesting enough. He should have explored something more antagonistic between Finn and Rose. I also think that Rose should have revealed about her sister dying during her Canto Bight monologue when she was looking at the fathiers. It should have been then when we should have seen her necklace for the first time. It would have had more impact emotionally.

I like TLJ mainly for the scenes with Luke, Rey and Kylo, and for the gargantuan battle spectacle, and because of the FO, Hux and Snoke. This movie has made me appreciate JJ Abrams talent as a filmmaker even more. In TFA he conveyed conflict and character in a seamless way that is easy to overlook. I think that with a bit of his input, TLJ would have been truly superb. As it is now, it is an uneven yet original movie with lots of heart.

 

Poe is demoted for not following orders. He really should have been disciplined worse than he was by Leia. Holdo's action are simple to understand. Anything more would be severely heavy handed.

 

THANK YOU.

 

I understand Holdo’s reasons now that those have been explained to me and it is how the military works, but it wasn’t obvious to me before. I’m one of those people who would have needed have this explained in the movie: that if you’re demoted you do not participated in strategy... maybe a sentence in the film to clarify that? In the SW movies I’ve seen before the rebel army seems to work as a whole happy family and the chain of command was never truly sensed. Therefore my confusion about Holdo keeping her plans to herself.

 

You make it sound as though wisdom should somehow make Luke immune to emotion.

Luke's decisions in the ST are less about regression and more about existential crisis, fate, and the ongoing tension between a Jedi and emotion.
He's the same infallible human - capable of reason and emotion.
He would be the victim of character assassination if he were portrayed otherwise

Luke's a Jedi familiar with the events of the PT who personally experienced the Skywalker dysfunction of the OT.
The through-line of Luke's arc is that he's flawed but never fully succumbs to fear and anger like a darksider.
He harbors these emotions long enough to induce his nephew's turn and unleash debilitating shame upon himself.
Great space opera material.

There's a big difference between you not liking the direction a writer took and them "showing a lack of interest".

Edited out a little unecessary rudeness.
Sorry, too grumpy to be posting!

 

A lot of people misuse high concept so I'm not trying to correct you. A high concept is one that is easily communicated, usually a story that has a succinct premise. Originality is a part of a high concept but being able to get it across quickly and to a broad range of people is more important.

His story would be the opposite, I'm not sure if low concept is actually a term but that's what it would be.

 

Huh, interesting, that's true. Good to know!

I guess I was going more for something like "high brow", or "inaccessible". Again, not a bad movie, but basically like the Requiem for a Dream of Star Wars- hardly the fun popcorn "pew, pew" movie people expect.

Though, I'd argue that there were many times TLJ ventured into that territory as well, which is part of the reason there is such a controversy around it.

 

The rebellion in the CT functions as a reasonably realistic military with a believable command structure. You have your civilian leadership (Mon Mothma and Leia), generals, admirals, and subordinates. There is a chain of command. It is very believable.

The resistance in E8 is a complete cluster-mess. It is horribly written. It starts with Poe's insubordination and subsequent demotion. The demotion had no real consequences beyond that one line of dialog. When I saw that I figured OK, this is hardly the first movie to have an insubordinate hotshot pilot so I decided to simply grin and bear it.

But then later we had an outright mutiny which, oh by the way, happens to be a capital offense. After the mutiny is squelched, there were zero consequences whatsoever other than the movie giving us arguably it's 2nd most horrible line, Holdo's "I sure do like him, Leia!!! That boy's got hella spunk!!" (OK that's not exactly what she said but hopefully you get the idea).

It was just atrocious. Absolutely atrocious.

 

Wait, I thought Poe was owed an explanation for Holdo's plans?

Has the metronome really swung this far the other way already?

 

I cannot speak for what other people in here say, but I have consistently stated that a Vice Admiral (and acting commander of the fleet) owes absolutely no explanation to anyone (except Leia, but she was incapacitated at the time) regarding her military decisions made in the heat of battle, and certainly not to a just-demoted pilot.

I hate what they did to Poe's character, making him (and several others for that matter) mutineers, which is kinda a form of treason. He has no right to demand an explanation from a superior officer, let alone one several rank levels above him.

 

That's fair. I've always thought that if anything, Holdo and Leia were pretty light on Poe's arrogance in this film, rather than the popular opinion that they weren't indulgent enough in it (which is simply bizarre to me).

 

I read things similarly but not so much your conclusions!

Maybe the storytellers are making a point with your observations?
TLJ story seems to exploit pragmatic problems that surface from time to time in military hierarchies during wartime.
There are weaknesses both factions share in SW and they both suffer large loses due to single operators failing to implement proper procedure.
How each side deals with these issues seems to be used to illustrate differences in their ideology and circumstance. (e.g. Poe treated with mercy, Resistance desperation for pilots.)

There's seems to be a stripping back going on that showcases essential elements within the FO and the Resistance.
Differences are laid bare and exaggerated for effect:

• The large scale meets the small.
• Reliance on technological fundamentalism meets hope and human spirit.
• Autocratic bureaucracy meets messy democratic struggle.
• Industrial assembly lines meets rag-tag make-do innovation.
• Blind obedience meets autonomous action.
• Power used to impose control over others meets power used to defend self management.

Some of this exploration is based on realism e.g. the nature of 20th century asymmetrical warfare.
Some is based on the fantastical e.g. a small band of rebels holding out against the bullies armed only with friendship, hope, and some magic power. (Asterix?)

Personally I think the story makes sense and follows clearly enough from what we've seen before in SW.
But that's just my opinion...

 

There's a difference between an entire crew feeling they need an explanation (because their lives literally depend on it), defying orders (with good intentions and massive consequences), and organizing a mutiny and holding a gun on your commanding officers.

I think that's why we get a mixed bag of emotions regarding Poe and Holdo. For some he deserves demotion, for others, considering the few people left in the resistance, and that no one seems to know who Holdo is (or have any first hand contact with her), she probably should tell someone the crew trusts since it is their lives on the line. For the mutiny, he gets off without anything despite committing a capitol offense (maybe in the GFFA, it's not death, but it should still be severe) and the Leia/Holdo moment talking about Poe at the end does not fit and feels contrived to the max.

I can't imagine any other leader having a gun held on them, going through a mutiny while there's an enemy bearing down on you, laughing it off, especially after all the losses the resistance just took. I felt like it was an early take, and they came up with the mutiny afterward and forgot how lightly Holdo and Leia took Poe's actions. I can maybe see them having a serious discussion about Poe (minus the mutiny) and discussing despite losing so many pilots, he took initiative, made a hard decision (which is part of command) and possibly did wind up giving the resistance more time. The mutiny however is not forgiveable (unless Holdo was a FO spy, which seems to have been the intended misdirect for at least part of the movie).