Has your TLJ opinion changed dramatically over time?

very good and I indeed expected a similar approach. Luke teaching his new students a peaceful way to deal with conflicts. They become more the UNO than NATO. It may have worked for several years in which they work more behind the scenes, but then a more prominent threat could have arisen like (Snoke from unknown regions, Knighs of Ren etc). Some missions went wrong and Ben questions Luke's actions, so conflict is there. They could have even included a small backwards for Luke and after seeing how ruthless Ben acts towards a beaten enemy, Luke may have tried to save the enemy which finally let them clash. Or Luke not saving someone Ben wanted to save. So many ways to establish a believable conflict between both without ignoring Luke's main character traits.

 

Luke's growth is also with the prequels in mind. To that end, the arrogance of the Jedi led to the rise of Darth Sidious, the creation of the Empire and their hubris of it. He feels its and endless cycle, because it happened to him.

 

I don't know if Jedi arrogance that led to the rise of Darth Sidious. Sometimes exceptionally smart people with great ability can maneuver in ways that can't possibly be anticipated. Had the Jedi risen against Palpatine in TPM, they could have very well been ostracized and failed in other ways by going against an established government. The fact that Sidious was able to hide among them speaks volumes to his training and specialization, imo, not so much to Jedi arrogance.

A case could be made that Luke interprets it differently, he after all doesn't see the movies . But to me the Jedi's main failing was allowing Anakin to get trained in the first place. So it falls on Qui-Gon (for forcing the issue) and then Obi-Wan for following through (although by that point, Anakin probably knew enough, and was known enough, that not training him could have made him even more dangerous).

Most of the failure for me falls squarely on Anakin's character. CW was awesome, but it would be interesting to see how he gets from that kid to Anakin in AotC. Because by then he moves from a pretty malleable and likeable kid to an arrogant entitled brat.

 

Yes, it has changed dramatically. When I left the theatre after the first viewing, I felt an emptiness I did not think possible from watching a movie. My biggest gripe was the use of gags. There didn't seem to be a single scene that kept any sense of depth or emotion. I was taken out from the get-go when I had to think of Kathleen Kennedy, was treated to a mother-joke, witnessed Luke casually tossing the sober, and had a multitude of predictable one-liners that felt entirely out of place and came from (or with) characters I didn't expect as comedic relief (Luke and Hux foremost). Add to that the treatment of Luke's character, no (satisfying) answers about Snoke's and Rey's origins, the overarching fuel-plot, Holdo & Rose as utterly annoying characters, cringe-worthy scenes, the entire Canto Bight stuff.... my initial ranking had TLJ just ahead of AotC.

I appreciated it slightly more after my second viewing in the theatres but had no desire to watch it again until its Blu-Ray release. It was also the first SW movie that made me not buy any accompanying books or collectables. I saw it as a movie with incredibly amazing scenes intersected by incredibly poor scenes.

Having seen it twice more at home, I actually enjoy it now. A lot. I guess I blend out the gags after multiple viewings and have obviously accepted where the story went. It's visually amazing and I loved the dynamics between Rey, Luke and Kylo. I still feel embarrassed watching some scenes with non-SW fans (my wife couldn't believe the milking scene, for instance), and I skipped any part Rose Quest thanks to a press on the remote (I was incredibly disappointed by Finn in VIII).

Looking forward to seeing it again, have purchased the Visual Dictionary, got the Resistance Bomber to build in little plastic bricks and consider it a good Star Wars movie that I would even rank higher than TPM and R1.

 

The man who projected himself across the galaxy certainly learned that over the last 30 years. Becoming wiser doesn't mean a person is perfect. Luke demonstrates that he's learned a lot since we saw him in RotJ. He's become wise in his own eyes.

Sometimes a person can become wise in their own eyes when they look at things they've accomplished, accolades they've received, and books they've read. Luke talks about his legend and that mighty Skywalker blood.

 

And another theme that continues with TLJ is that all of the main characters who are Jedi go out on their own terms for the greater good in the Saga:

-Obiwan sacrifices himself in ANH so Han, Luke and Leia can board the falcon and get to Yavin.

-Yoda dies of old age but still is able to talk to Luke one last time before he confronts Vader.

-Anakin/Vader dies by throwing the Emperor to his death and has one last moment with his son.

-Luke is by himself and force projecting to save the Resistance (and see Leia one last time) before he dies.

There are no punk deaths in that respect, as who knows if it was intentional, but they all in a respectful way....

 

my opinion has changed for the worst on each new viewing. Struggled to get through the third viewing so will not put myself through that again.

 

Even Qui-Gon's death was handled well. Poor Mace Windu though.

I think I've seen the film 10+ times now. TNT is showing The Force Awakens now. I haven't gone back to watch that since TLJ came out. I'll wait for a awhile and watch them back to back.

 

I know that Sam Jackson went to Lucas and said he wanted to go out in a blaze of glory in ROTS, so his death was not going to be more dignified like the others.

 

I do have to say, too- the two times I saw TLJ in theaters, I was in a... celebratory mood, and had quite a bit of wine beforehand... (not to be confused with the fan "whine" after, am I right? )

The last 30 minutes of the movie were something I was pretty unsure about, but having watched it with a completely clear head last week, it felt like a brand new experience to me. It's not as if I didn't know what happened when I watched it last December, but the details and the visuals were something I was unable to fully appreciate.

I still really dislike the opening battle on D'Qar, and I still attribute that to the strange sense of scale it portrayed. But the rest of the movie, including the battle of Crait, doesn't have as warped a sense of scale as I remembered. In fact, I rather like how pathetic the Rebels are in their ski speeders- one thing that I kind of "missed" during the film is how the movie really is about trying to just get at least some Rebels away from the First Order. It can be frustrating to watch the Rebellion/Resistance be whittled down to almost nothing, but on rewatching it, I think it's clear that was Holdo's goal from the moment the hyperspace tracking was revealed. So what seems like a hollow victory at the end of the film was really pretty much a best case scenario for them, and I'm so looking forward for the revenge and comeback of the Rebellion in IX now. It's a big galaxy after all, and the First Order hasn't won yet.

 

2nd time in the theater made a huge difference. Haven't watched it again since although I did just watch the deleted scenes last night and I thought those enhanced the experience as well, especially the end of the raid & plunder scene. I'd love to see them do an extended version of the film like Peter Jackson did with Hobbit & LOTR movies. Although I don't think we need the extended Canto Bight chase scene. I would agree with those who say that is the weakest part of the film. But if the broomstick kid is going to fit into future stories then I guess there is a bigger purpose to it?

 

It has changed but not dramatically. I never thought the movie was bad. I was a bit confused because, it didn't go the way I thought. The more I saw the movie things made more and more sense. The biggest things that still sit funny with me are Snoke's death too early with little backgroud. DJ seems to know more than he leads on. While it was tough seeing Luke go, it made sense. This whole movie was about failure. But sometimes a failure is a blessing in disguise, what I mean here is if Poe didn't go after the First Order Dreadnought and destroy it, that ship would have plucked the whole fleet out of the sky after they tracked them through hyperspace. In the end this is a trilogy, while there was a story in TLJ, it's just part of a bigger story. Can't wait to see episode IX.

 

First, the Jedi clearly state in AotC and TPM that they aren't able to communicate with the Force like before. It could be argued if it is arrogance that has caused this or not. It could also be argued whether not telling the senate in AotC was wise or arrogant.

From AotC:

Yoda: Blind we are, if creation of this clone army we could not see.

Mace Windu: I think it is time we inform the senate that our ability to use the force has diminished.

Yoda: Only a Dark Lord of the Sith knows of our weakness. If informed the senate is, multiply our adversaries will.

From TPM:

Qui-Gon Jinn: [describing his encounter with Darth Maul] He had all the lightsaber fighting capabilities and the moves of the Jedi, only faster and more agressive. My only conclusion... is that it was a Sith lord.

Ki-Adi-Mundi: Impossible! The Sith are extinct! They have been for nearly a millenium.

Mace Windu: I agree. The Sith would not have returned without us sensing it.

Secondly, you forget Sidious doesn't need Anakin, he doesn't need Vader. So no, it's thanks to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan that the Sith eventually fall just like the prophecy foretold.

Finally, on your point about the Jedi going against Palpatine in TPM, if they did in fact know who Palpatine really was, they didn't, then it wouldn't be a problem at all because he was just a senator at that point. Once they started to figure out it was too late. Yoda even says this path will lead to a "dark place."

Ki-Adi-Mundi: If he does not give up his emergency powers after the destruction of Grievous, then he must be forcibly removed from office.

Mace Windu: It will be tricky. The Jedi Council will have to take control of the Senate to ensure a peaceful transition to a new goverment and a new leadership for the Republic.

Yoda: Hmm. To a dark place this line of thought will carry us. Great care we must take.

 

Before I responded to your post, I did go back to page 5 and rated your post informative, just for the record You're saying that Luke's character regressed to how he was in ESB, instead of moving forward from ROTJ. Films are subjective to each their own.

 

True.

And to be honest, that's part of the reason why people love The Clone Wars- it does a fantastic job of really fleshing out not only the characters and events of that era, but the galaxy as a whole.

It's one of those entries in the series that actually is generally described as making the movie viewing experience even better!

 

I don't deny there may be interest, just again nothing for me.

 

Snoke came from space whales

 

This was the worst star wars movie I ever seen! Rian Johnson it is very clear he is not a good writer and he needed a co-writer for the movie. The plot holes are uncountable, the editing of the movie was very bad and sloppy, the scene with Finn meets Rose for the first time, Finn is about to enter a pod he place his bag outside the pod, when Rose talks to him, some how the bag gets inside the pod but worst on top of a chair lol. This is a very bad movie.

Then they killed off Luke Skywalker, with an unreasonable reason projecting an image of himself kills him. Then they made Luke be a person who turn his back on the Force, and his friends and family. This image of Luke is hard to accept it like Captain American turn his back on America and start killing American citizens. Or like Superman turn his back on Lewis, and leave her to die when he can save her. The Last Jedi is the far worst Star Wars movie even though it had a big budget, and fancy visual,its writing and plot fell through the roof. This why it has a low audience score.

Then Finn in TFA Finn appeared he might be force senstive, why did he leave the first order what made him turn in TLJ this is ignored, and he was turned into a side character who did not even have no importance to the main plot. In the promotion of the Last Jedi they was showing Finn had a new blaster, he did not even use the blaster one time! Ouch! The Last Jedi was a lot of money invested in an non-experience writer and director, they should used someone more experiences like Spielberg or Ron Howard.